Entering my first contest

[aeajr]

Well, I just made a commit to take things to the next level. I registered for the Eastern Soaring League's June competition. Now I must prepare.

I will most likely fly either a 2 Meter Spirit RES or a 2 Meter Sagitta 600 RES. Any recommendations on these planes? I own both.

I don't expect to win. I would like to make the middle of the pack, but even that is not a requirement. Just being able to compete and finish will be enough. Of course I say that now.

The event is at my my home field. It is hosted by our club, so I have that comfort factor to my advantage. There are many members of the club who will be entering so I have experience around me.

Right now my biggest challenge is learning to launch off of a winch. My last attempt produced a lot of balsa splinters. 3 months later the plane is ready for its first test glides. I am very comfortable launching of of a hi-start.

Any suggestions on books to read, training rourtines to use or other advice? I will get coaching at the club, but appreciate any input.

[ICTHRMLS]

Plane recommendation.... Sagitta 600 for sure - unless you know the Spirit better.

Try to attend some contests beforehand.... they always need helpers to run retreivers, score flights, time, etc. Get a feel for the contest environment as opposed to a fun-fly day.

Get comfortable with the winch asap..... very few contests will offer both winch and high start.

Practice your landing..... and place more emphasis on "timing" the landing pattern rather than the actual spot. Base leg and final will require a coordinated combination of time and distance you don't think about when fun flying. Use a tape recorder with the last minute counted out. I prefer every five seconds up to the last 30 seconds and then every second until target time. Do a quick / short launch and at about 100 feet start the tape. See how time and distance management affects your plane and style of flying.

Of course, consult the many books referenced in other theads found in this forum (Old Buzzard works for me) about specific contest tips.

Good luck and above all have fun!!!!

[aeajr]

Thanks for the advice.

I do know the Spirit better at this point. 65 flights vs 25 on the Sagitta. However EVERYONE says use the Sagitta 600, so I will focus my training on this one.

Could you tell me why you think the Sagitta would be better?

Attending contests is definately a great suggestion. Our club hosted two events last year and I worked them both. I did a lot of timing. It was a huge help in understanding what was involved in the event.

I especially like the idea of taping the last minute count. I will DEFINATELY try that one. I have an upstart that I use when I am practicing launches and landing, so I know exactly what you mean.

Old Buzzards seems to be the universal favoriate among contest flyers so I guess I will have to get it.

I am sure there will be other good suggestions coming my way in this thread.

Really great input. Thanks so much!

[Ben Diss]

Think "UP". Really. Force yourself to imagine your glider rising in a thermal. Concentrate on it. If you think sink, your glider will find it.

You're in a good area to learn thermals. Definitely, positively go to every contest John Hauf CD's.

-Ben

[ICTHRMLS]

Originally posted by aeajr

Could you tell me why you think the Sagitta would be better?

Old Buzzards seems to be the universal favoriate among contest flyers so I guess I will have to get it.


The Sagitta has a more versitile airfoil in my opinion. It will handle weight, wind, and lift better. My Sagitta 900 always hung with the pack.. a few years back :rolleyes: and if the wind got up you can ballast to your hearts content.

BTW.... YOU DON'T HAVE OLD BUZZARDS YET??? WHAT YA WAITING ON....... I GUARANTEE YOU WILL ADD 10+ MINUTES TO YOUR NEXT FLIGHT.

Sorry for the yelling.... just real adament about that book. :D It is one book you will read over and over again. Very well written....

Did I mention to have fun? :cool:

[John Gallagher]

Do both planes have spoilers?
You should be competent accurately landing the glider without spoilers before you start landing with spoilers.
There's a lot of poor lift days in the winter. Good time to practice spot landing although snow changes how far the glider will slide to a stop.
Don't expect that the contest day will be calm. When you are confident on calm to light wind days, learn to fly windy days.

John

[aeajr]

Originally posted by Ben Diss
Think "UP". Really. Force yourself to imagine your glider rising in a thermal. Concentrate on it. If you think sink, your glider will find it.

You're in a good area to learn thermals. Definitely, positively go to every contest John Hauf CD's.

-Ben

Yes, John is quite an amazing pilot. I think he smells thermals, or maybe he sees them like the rest of us see smoke. I just watch him from the sides. You can learn so much just watching a master fly.


Yes! I will get the old Buzzard and read it. I promise!


Yes, both of my planes have spoilers. I will consider your advice to work on precision landing without them. Thanks for the suggestion.

[RSCherry]

Aeajr-

Hook up with one of the ESL experts to time for you and coach you. The ESL is blessed with many excellent pilots. I learned more from Rick Brown while he timed for me at one contest than I had picked up from all the books I'd read before.

Contest flying is different than sport flying. The name of the game in the ESL is landings. Practice spot landings until they are second nature, including the timing of your approach turns. Consistent landings start with consistent approaches.

See you in Long Island- Bob

[fprintf]

One piece of advice I was given, as a new contest flier, was to use a talking countdown device. If you already have a tape player then that should be fine.

Otherwise, do like I did and buy a talking timer from www.talkingtimer.com. The service was outstanding and the timer really works well, plus can be affixed to your TX for relatively fumble free operation. I have been able to practice the last two minutes of flight, getting successively better with each flight at getting the plane 30 feet overhead on my downwind leg, counting to 8, going across to the right upwind approach angle, and then turning back upwind.

And this is from a newbie contest flier. I agree with everyone who says that attending contests and having experts time for you is way more instructional than any sport flying *or* time spent here on RCGroups.

Not to knock you down, but unless you can do a spot landing most of the time, and pretty close to the target time, you don't have much of a chance of placing "in the middle". Contest flying, apparently, is based as much on seat-time/practice as anything else. And unless you have some other people new to the game (like me, and I am going to try and get to the Long Island and CRRC ESL contests this year) then I have found the best attitude going in is to hope to gain experience for the next contest. At my first contest I placed last, out of two fliers, in 2Meter. I placed second to last for the whole contest, and that was because the guy in last place was flying a hand-launch glider in extremely light lift. I was not dissapointed, however, because I knew I was new at the game and even the guys further down the leaderboard were way more experienced than I was. I'll get 'em eventually, though. If I keep at it I have 40 more years of practice ahead of me and eventually I'll get better and they'll get too old to compete anymore... :)

[aeajr]

fprintf

Thanks for the tip on the talking timer.

Also thanks for your other suggestions. I hope you do get to Long Island for the event. It would be nice to meet some of the folks that I chat with here on the forum.

Our club is a glider based club. We have a club contest first Sunday of each month. Last year I was unable to attend any of the club contests. This year I hope to make all of them.

I have one member who has agreed to coach me when he can and there are a number of other members who are very helpful, so I have friends around me to help.

What I need now is more air time. I started my glider flying in late July. Between then and the frosty temperatures we have now, I have about 100 flights between the Spirit and the Sagitta.

My number one priority now is to learn to launch off that winch. Last time I destroyed the Spirit. That is now rebuilt, so as soon as the snow clears and the weather gets a little better I will be in the air as much as possible.

Thanks for the guidance.

[John Gallagher]

That talking timer has been available at Radio Schack.

John

[fprintf]

Apparently Radio shack doesn't sell them any more. Plus they used to charge quite a bit more. For $14 it is a pretty good deal.

[aeajr]

I sent a note out to a bunch of club members about these talking timers to see if anyone else wants one. I my end up getting a bunch of them. I like the idea both as a glider training aid AND for watching the flight time on my parkflyers so I don't get surprised by a motor out situation at a bad time. I may get two for myself and one for my wife for the kitchen.

Price is right!

[fprintf]

I ordered two as well. I ended up with a 3rd as a Christmas present from the supplier - the clock doesn't work but the countdown function works perfectly. I dremeled the clip off the back and zip tied it to my antenna.

One is in my flight box as a backup. The second is in use by my son for timing his daily reading assignments. For the price you can hardly go to wrong! When they were sold by Radio Shack they were a favorite on RCSE, even at the $19.95 - $29.95 prices I have heard quoted.

[ICTHRMLS]

Talking timer watches are great for practice but some contest directors... and fellow competitors restrict their use during the actual contest. It can be distracting to have to listen to a "countdown" that differs from your task. Be sure to ask the CD about it.

[fprintf]

Originally posted by ICTHRMLS
Talking timer watches are great for practice but some contest directors... and fellow competitors restrict their use during the actual contest. It can be distracting to have to listen to a "countdown" that differs from your task. Be sure to ask the CD about it.

Agreed. I have heard that as well. Besides, talking times are only accurate to one second where most contests require a stopwatch accurate to the hundredths. Most CDs I read about on RCSE do not permit the talking timers due to the annoyance factor - that lady talking is actually quite loud at a silent flight contest. Better to remove it from the TX for the day and concentrate on the real live talking timer next to you (who should be doing a 2 minute, 1 minute, 30 second, 15 second, 10, 9, 8 etc. countdown for you anyway).

Stuart

edit: I am adding my commentary onto this thread only as a newbie passing along the things I have learned from attending a few contests and participating in one. I am hoping that the advice I am giving, that was passed along to me, is coming across accurately but also that it is taken for what it is worth - from one newbie to another. In re-reading some of my past posting I have come across as a know-it-all on more than one occasion! ;)

[aeajr]

ICTHRMLS

Good point! I don't really expect to use it in competition. I will have a person timing for me then. This is for those days when I am out there all alone.

Not too long ago I went to the field on a very windy day when no one else was flying and just workd on launching and landing for 2-3 hours with my up-start. That was just so I could handle the plane in wind. It took a few bumps and bruises but I am better in wind now than I was before.

So I can work on timed approaches or full task timing when I am all by myself and I can focus on the plane, not on the watch.

[ICTHRMLS]

Originally posted by fprintf
I am hoping that the advice I am giving, that was passed along to me, is coming across accurately but also that it is taken for what it is worth - from one newbie to another. It's worth a lot IMHO.... I wish I had access to all the posted advice when I first started competition flying. It sure would have been helpful. Keep it coming!!!!:cool:

[mhmitchell333]

Good luck aeajr. Its about timr you started flying contests. Don't forget a sailplane travels a long way in ten seconds. Landing, landing, landing and when you got that down do more landing ,landing landing. Most contests I have been to staying aloft isn't a problem (Florida land of constant thermals ...almost)

[aeajr]

Well Long Island is not the land of constant thermals. Here we have to hunt, but if the sun is up and the wind not too strong, we find 'em adn we ride 'em.

[aeajr]

Well there has been a change of plans and planes.

Originally I was going to decide which of my 2 meter planes I would fly in the competition. Either the Spirit or the Sagitta 600.

Well, it looks like neither.

I am preparing an Airtronics Legend 3M full house plane for flight. Bought it used from a club member. Needs a little work, but my coach feels it is time for me to move up to the big birds if I am going to enter competitions.

[fprintf]

I get it! The thought of me coming down to Long Island with my new 3 Meter plane got you nervous! :)

[aeajr]

YES! I was having FprintF envy!

[ICTHRMLS]

Originally posted by aeajr
Originally I was going to decide which of my 2 meter planes I would fly in the competition. Either the Spirit or the Sagitta 600.

I am preparing an Airtronics Legend 3M full house plane for flight. Having made the transition from a Sagitta 900 to a Legend myself I would caution you that the flying characteristics are very different. If you don't get A LOT of practice with the Legend beforehand you will be better off with the 2-meter planes in competition.

That aside....... the Legend likes to be flown FAST and floating around the sky with it will be very frustrating. Keep the nose down and the airspeed up and it will be a great full house plane for you. Just my 2 cents.....................

[aeajr]

Thanks for the tips.

The main criteria will be whether I can fly the plane safely and in full control. I will not put anyone else or their plane at risk.

My goal is to have at least 100 flights from March 1 to June 15, prior to the contest. If I can get that much time in, I should be fine.

[aeajr]

Originally posted by fprintf
One piece of advice I was given, as a new contest flier, was to use a talking countdown device. If you already have a tape player then that should be fine.

Otherwise, do like I did and buy a talking timer from www.talkingtimer.com. The service was outstanding and the timer really works well, plus can be affixed to your TX for relatively fumble free operation. I have been able to practice the last two minutes of flight, getting successively better with each flight at getting the plane 30 feet overhead on my downwind leg, counting to 8, going across to the right upwind approach angle, and then turning back upwind.



I got my talking time. I love it. Thanks for the recommendation. :p

[aeajr]

I just came across this old thread. When I go back and read the posts and see where I was then, I can appreciate the journey I have taken and all the help I have received along the way.

It was January 2004 and I was going to fly in an ESL contest in June. I was excited and scared. I had been flying for less than a year and I had only been flying gliders about 6 months. I couldn't even use the winch.

Well I flew that contest and I had a ball. None of my flights were over 5 minutes. I could not launch for myself and my landing skills were less than stellar. If I was in the landing area I was thrilled.

I came in dead last for Sportsman, but I finished. I put my Sagitta in the trees twice over two days.

It was on of the greatest experiences of my life.

Fast forward to today, March 2009.

I am President of my Local Club, a great soaring club!
I am President and Newsletter Editor of the Eastern Soaring League
I am having so much fun flying gliders that it is all I think about.

What is the message?

Go and fly! Enter those contests. Don't be afraid and don't hold back.

Of course I had some major advantages. I had some of the best teachers around. The Long Island Silent Flyers is a wonderful glider club. We have such a rich pool of great pilots and great teachers.

And all of you, on this forum. You have been my teachers and my coaches and my guides. Thank you so much for all you have done for me. I am so grateful.

What a wonderful and exciting 5 years it has been since that first post. :D

[fprintf]

Wow, what a blast from the past this was! Fortunately the email subscription notified me of your post... wow, I can't believe how long it has been since this first contest. Congrats on sticking with it... someday I too will be back, I still am jonesing to get the sailplanes out once in a while, though the batteries are all dead and life is full of other commitments anyway. Thanks for the reminder of all the fun we had!

[dwells]

Thanks for dragging this up Ed. I seem to be paralleling your journey. Flying a Spirit for a year, yet to winch and afraid of a contest. This gives me incentive. If you can do it, so can I. Thanks again!

Don

[aeajr]

The biggest pointer I can give you on contests is don't be afraid. I don't know about the rest of the world, but from what I have seen, 98% of the people who fly contests are wonderful people. ( 1% are just OK and 1% are grouches)

I have had people come to me while I was flying and point me to the lift.

I have had people see that I was ignoring the streamer on my antenna. After I landed they gave me a full lesson on how to read the streamer and where to find the lift. YOU CAN'T BUY THIS KIND OF TRAINING! I applied it all weekend. YOU KNOW, IT WORKED!

I had a servo fail on my plane. I had a spare, but when I tried to pull the bad one out the wire ripped. I needed wires, soldering iron and a host of stuff. I didn't have it, so I figured I was out.

No way! A host of people, having learned of my problem decended upon me with servos, irons, crimpers, and skill. They fixed my plane in under 10 minutes, then walked me to the winch and helped me launch it. THESE WERE THE GUYS WITH WHOM I WAS IN COMPETITION!

Go to the contest and watch. Go and offer to time. But bring your plane too. Even if you don't fly, help out. Get to know the flow and how the contests work. It is fun!

As you get to know people tell them that you are looking forward to flying a contest some day. You ahve your plane but didn't feel ready to fly. Oh baby! Someone is going to latch onto you. You may end up with private lessons after the contest.

When you fly your first contest, don't be afraid to ask for and accept help. People want to help. They want you to enjoy. They want you to come back.

Set four goals:

1) Enjoy - always good
2) Learn - always good
3) Judge success by personal bests - rejoyce in the small personal wins.
4) Shoot for dead last but finished. If you feel you have to win, you will get yourself all tied in knots. - If you beat this, you are the winner!!!!


Once you get a taste you will be hooked. And if you are not, you let me know and I will have a word with those guys.

Just keep flying. Find friends to fly. Find people to teach. Through teaching you will become a better pilot.

Find someone to help you and if you can't find anyone, PM me and I will help you. ( you won't be the first )

You have so much fun ahead of you.

[gliderr2]

Hi,
I'm a contest rookie myself.I suggest practice with both planes in all wind conditions.Fly the one your think best for the conditions but take both if they use AMA rules you change if you want .Good luck and remember it's all about having fun.

[aeajr]

So, let's get a discussion going on preparing for your first contest.

It all depends on how confident you are of your skills.

I was unable to run the winch myself so I did not even work on that. I had other people launch for me.

I was OK with finding thermals but this was a major focus area.

I could not spot land to save my life. ( I still need a LOT of work ) so I spent a lot of time on this. I did a lot of Launch and lands using an up-start. One day I did 50 landings. That helped a lot.

I only scored landing points on one landing but I was at least in control on the landings and was in the general area. ( hey, that sounds like me now! :( )

So, where are your skills?

[dwells]

I've been flying a little over a year and have my LSF 1. I've only flown my Spirit 2m and am very comfortable with Hi-Start and landing. I've been in killer thermals with my little Spirit a few times and have a 53 minute flight as my personal best. The guys on the field tried it on the winch one time and it popped off and gave me run for my money. I guess that's it more than anything Ed, the winch intimidates me :o . I'm afraid I'll blow the Spirit to pieces. Plus, this day and time, the Spirit isn't exactly a contest platform (or is it). I'm building an OlyIII 132" plane now and would love to get used to it and use it in my first contest or do you think I should try with the Spirit first :confused: .

[Libelle201B]

Well, I just made a commit to take things to the next level. I registered for the Eastern Soaring League's June competition. Now I must prepare.

I will most likely fly either a 2 Meter Spirit RES or a 2 Meter Sagitta 600 RES. Any recommendations on these planes? I own both.

I don't expect to win. I would like to make the middle of the pack, but even that is not a requirement. Just being able to compete and finish will be enough. Of course I say that now.

The event is at my my home field. It is hosted by our club, so I have that comfort factor to my advantage. There are many members of the club who will be entering so I have experience around me.

Right now my biggest challenge is learning to launch off of a winch. My last attempt produced a lot of balsa splinters. 3 months later the plane is ready for its first test glides. I am very comfortable launching of of a hi-start.

Any suggestions on books to read, training rourtines to use or other advice? I will get coaching at the club, but appreciate any input.aeajr, this being your first contest, I would also suggest that you fly the two meter that you are most comfortable with. Trying to learn and fly your new three meter sailplane at your first contest could end up badly not only for your psyche but also your new plane. Jumping in with the three meter just to fly with the big boys isn' a good idea IMHO. Launching with a highstart is quite different obviously than a winch as you have stated. I hope you have been versed on how to use the winch. If not, maybe this will help....as you prepare to launch with the winch there is slack in the line ie no tension. The plane at this point should be over and behind your head slightly in your out streached arm. As you TAP the pedal gently you should be reaching back with your arm until you feel about the same tension as you would at release with your histart. At that point you should follow through with your arm as you would with your histart, "tapping" the pedal to keep tension on the line all the while. Remember, if you STOP tapping the line will lose tension and you will stop climbing. If you STAND on the pedal you will climb very quickly and overstress the plane as you have experienced. The trick is to get a smooth "tap,tap,tap" going to maintain enough tension on the line to get a good launch. The interval between "taps" will dictate the tension on the line, more taps will increase, fewer taps will decrease the tension on the line. Remember, do not STAND on the pedal. After a few winch launches you should feel quite comfortable. (don't forget any headwind/tailwind factors). Others have already expressed the importance of landing accuracy, a MUST. Duration is important too, and also the timing of your flight in it's last phases ie pattern. Competition is really fun, a great comradery can evolve with the folks you compete with, even if you don't win all the time. Good luck :)

[schrederman]

My first contest was in 1973. I went expecting to win... no really! I could barely land my model on the field. I had a Soarcraft ASW-17, and I got it in a thermal that I couldn't get out of. I had a32-minute flight and said to heck with the contest. No one else on my frequency anyway. I looped 20 times consecutively trying to come down... and finally crashed it off field... ouch. Damage wasn't bad but the whole thing was humbling...

Well, I had been flying for only 3 months, but I had won many trophies in my youth flying Nordic gliders and thought I knew something... You will do much better... Don't worry about winning, just do better than you did each time and pretty soon, you WILL be winning...

Jack

[OVSS Boss]

First contest lasted about 10 seconds from stepping up to the winch to the wings departing. The only saving grace I guess was I was not running the winch, kind of a real arse kicking huh!

I had flown rc sailplanes for about 8 years but not real seriously, so I woalked off like Charlie Brown and his broken kite and left the field. I went home and rebuilt an Oly II and went to a contest in Ft. Wayne later that year, first day, I tried every stupid pilot trick that there was, flying with spoilers up (could not figure out thaqt up trim issue), popped off, short landing, long landings, missed easy air, and that was just Saturday.

Sunday, I won the whole thing, no kidding. The contest was called the Cash Bash and I beat LV guys, it only took about 7 years to win another and I was trying then. That first win was pure ignorance. I flew that Oly downwind to a stupid distance and I heard a guy say "that boy really has some balls", and my thought was, is there something to worry about flying out there? It took me 7 years to do that again cause then I thought, there must be something to worry about flying way out there.

Ignorance is bliss, step up, fly your ship to the best of your ability and have fun, cause this is a blast!

Marc

[target]

Never flown a TD contest yet, but many F3F (slope race) contests...

I'll be hitting up my first comp this May, at the SCSC contest at the home field. Hope to make some others also.

TD is the polar opposite of F3F, and so, very new and exciting for me.

They are just toy airplanes..... Contests accelerate your learning, nothing to fear, I think. Just make sure to have the right attitude. It's competition, yes, but all in good fun and sportmanship. I'm not out to win, I just want to do well (for me), and improve.
Then I'm happy.
If I can help someone else along the way, so much the better!

Regards,
Target

[aeajr]

aeajr, this being your first contest, I would also suggest that you fly the two meter that you are most comfortable with. Good luck :)

Thanks for the tip. The first post in this thread is from 2004, when I flew my first contest. I am many contests past that now, but thanks for the tips. New contest pilots will benefit from your suggestions.

Now I fly a Supra, an AvA and a Thermal Dancer. ;)

[aeajr]

I posted an idea for a glider pilot training program. If anyone is interested, it can be found here.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11790904&postcount=129

[Libelle201B]

Thanks for the tip. The first post in this thread is from 2004, when I flew my first contest. I am many contests past that now, but thanks for the tips. New contest pilots will benefit from your suggestions.

Now I fly a Supra, an AvA and a Thermal Dancer. ;)aeajr, OOPS ! I should have noticed that :o . What a great selection of competition sailplanes, a Pike Perfect in your arsenal would top it off ;)
Happy Soaring!

[atmosteve]

I've been flying a little over a year and have my LSF 1. I've only flown my Spirit 2m and am very comfortable with Hi-Start and landing. I've been in killer thermals with my little Spirit a few times and have a 53 minute flight as my personal best. The guys on the field tried it on the winch one time and it popped off and gave me run for my money. I guess that's it more than anything Ed, the winch intimidates me :o . I'm afraid I'll blow the Spirit to pieces. Plus, this day and time, the Spirit isn't exactly a contest platform (or is it). I'm building an OlyIII 132" plane now and would love to get used to it and use it in my first contest or do you think I should try with the Spirit first :confused: .

Don, of course you should be able to gently winch launch the Spirit, but at first try to do it on a steady 3-4 knot wind day and don't wind the winch up to much before you release, your preferred histart pressure for the conditions of that day is ok at first.

Launch it at a slight incline and just tap the winch about every second at first to get a feel for it, tapping briefly every second is being on the conservative side because too much pressure will see the glider pulse and the wings bend a lot, but not enough tapping or too short a duration on the pedal and it will slow and stall, tipping a wing. But the good news is that on a light weather day you have a good margin of success between these two states of peril.

Some winches have more cranking power than others, so its a matter of talking over the winch with its owner and being cautious at first, but not to cautious as you don't want the Spirit to fall out of the sky from lack of line pressure just after the initial pow of release.

Establish what thickness and weight the winchline is, anything over 1.2mm diameter mono is going to be an extra weight on the wings and will slow ascent to, even for your Oly.
Lincoln posted a very good and funny piece on how to approach your first time on the pedal somewhere here, wish i could find it.

And, I believe competitors down here have used the Spirit for 2m comps.
If I had a well used and flown Spirit and a new spanking 132" Oly, I know which glider I would rather risk as my first self-launch winch experience. After you hold your breath and get through your first one, your confidence will build quickly ;)

[aeajr]

I've been flying a little over a year and have my LSF 1. I've only flown my Spirit 2m and am very comfortable with Hi-Start and landing. I've been in killer thermals with my little Spirit a few times and have a 53 minute flight as my personal best. The guys on the field tried it on the winch one time and it popped off and gave me run for my money. I guess that's it more than anything Ed, the winch intimidates me :o . I'm afraid I'll blow the Spirit to pieces. Plus, this day and time, the Spirit isn't exactly a contest platform (or is it). I'm building an OlyIII 132" plane now and would love to get used to it and use it in my first contest or do you think I should try with the Spirit first :confused: .

My Spirit had too much positive incidence ( I think it is positive.) in the h-stab. That is, the angle was up too much in the back. I has some problems off the hi-start, but on the faster winch it would tend to pop off a lot.

Once I reset the stab, the problem went away AND the plane flew better.

If you have a 50+ minute flight I would say you have no reason to hesitate to take the Spirit to a contest.

As for the winch, I agree that the winch is tricky when you have a light weight balsa wing, like the Spirit's. But you can learn to tap it up the line. I have launched my Spirit on the winch many times.

However, at most contests you can have someone else launch the plane/run the winch, while you handle the radio.

Build your Olly, but go try the contest now. So what if you come in last, it will be a blast! Launch easy, mild on the zoom and go look for some lift. :D

[oscillator]

Aeajr,

Thanks for digging up this old thread - I agree contest flying is the best instruction you can ask for. My first ever contest was one year ago this month - here is the story:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=830986

Yesterday I flew the same contest, but this time entered the "expert" class (not that I even remotely fit that description). I doubt I would have done very well except I had one of the best pilots on the field and all around great guy (Bob McGowan) as my spotter/coach. What an improvement from a year ago - actually made points on ALL my landings and finished 3rd in my class. Like someone said earlier in this thread - you can't buy that kind of instruction.

All the comments about contest flying have been spot on - great people, great time, and the best way to improve your flying. Not to mention a great motivator for going out to fly.

When I flew my first contest I had only owned a 3M TD ship for a few weeks and only flew it a few times before the contest. I had been flying RC for just over a year and most of that was helicopters. I think I had only caught a handful of thermals in my entire flying carrier at that time. The winch was fairly new to me, though I had launched from a winch a few times. About all I was certain of at the time was I could probably get the plane up and back down without major damage.

A trick I had learned from earlier competitive training (bicycle racing) was to set staged goals, so that you were always able to meet at least one of your goals. My goals going into my first contest were as follows:

1. Have fun
2. Bring the ship home in one piece
3. Learn something
4. Make a respectable showing(i.e. if I'm last, try not to be last by a mile)
5. Do better than last place if possible.

I think these are reasonable goals for anyone's first contest. #1 should be no problem, as should #3, and with any luck #2. The rest is pure gravy. I would consider reaching any of these goals a success on a first contest. In fact, goal #1 should always be the main priority when going to fly - otherwise why bother?

Hope to see more fist timers flying contests this year!

Mark

[aeajr]

I'm building an OlyIII 132" plane now and would love to get used to it and use it in my first contest or do you think I should try with the Spirit first :confused: .

One additional thought here, fly what you know.

Several people encouraged me to go to a 3M full house plane as fast as possible, for contest flying. I was, afterall flying in an "unlimited" class. So I purchased a used Legend that had all kinds of problems. But I was new and did not understand there were problems with the plane.

If I had stayed with my Sagitta 600 and Spirit 2M planes for the first few contests I probably would have done better. I knew them better and they were simpler planes to fly. Don't get me wrong, I had a ball, but from a score point of view I would have done better.

When flying club contests we often had 2M and 3M class. In 2M I usually did pretty good with the Spirit or the Sagitta. In 3M I was always last.

If you looked at my times and landing points, I did better with the 2M planes than the 3M plane. If I had flown the 2M in unlimited I would have done better.

This leads to a few points to consider:

Time on the plane and your comfort with the plane is just as important as the plane you fly.

Sometimes a simpler plane is better.

I have a Supra. Wonderful, top of the line full house competition plane. I also have an AVA. Wonderful top of the line RES competition plane.

Looking at my scores over the past season I probably did better overall with the AVA than with the Supra. Does that make the AVA the better plane? No, it means that I do better with a simpler plane as it lets me focus more on the air and less on the plane. Fewer mixes means less to mess up.

Now, there is no question that in windy conditions or when the thermals are way out there the Supra serves me better. But under average conditions I do better with the simpler plane.

So, don't feel you need a fancy radio or a full house plane. Fly what you know and you will do better. Take that Spirit to the contest and you will probably surprise yourself.

[oscillator]

This brings up another interesting point - 3M full house planes are expensive - which turns off a lot of people. Many clubs have separate classes for 2M, woodie, RES, and even EZG - so I agree, fly what you have (i.e. what you know).

That said, there is no question a modern 3M ship like the Supra/Perfect/etc is the cat's meow in performance - so when you decide you just have to have a big glass ship look in the classifieds. My first big ship was a used Escape for $600 - all I added was a RX and I was good to go. In fact, all my big TD ships have been 2nd hand - so no need to break the bank.

[dwells]

Thanks Steve and Ed, sounds like a plan. I'll try the winch next chance I get. I have changed the stab on the Spirit and dropped it in the rear as per CRRC tips but I can't remember if it was before or after the popoff that happened when the guys tried it. Right Steve, will NOT experiment with the new Oly...no way. I will get used to this big RES on the Hi-Start first.

[aeajr]

Oscillator,

What do you consider expensive?

A new glass Supra is about $1600. A carbon Supra is $2000. In this class, many of the top of the line planes are even higher. Add to that $250 to $500 in electroncis and you have a pretty pricy package.

But there are 3M F3J/TD class competition planes in the $600 to $800 range that are very good. My Thermal Dancer was $650 for the ARF and I have been very happy with this plane. The Dragonfly Strong is $699.

There are even some TD planes in the $400-$600. Art Hobby and Brian Agnew have planes in this range.

And, or course, there are kits and such that can be had for under $250.

You don't have to have a wildly expensive carbon plane to do well. Clearly they do give you an advantage but the pilot is what makes the difference.

If you have one of the middle of the pack planes, and you practice and get to know the plane very well, you can win! A well tuned plane in the hands of a well practiced pilot is a more potent combination than a hot plane in the hands of a poor pilot.

The RES planes, even the top class RES planes cost less. Now you are talking $600 to $800 for the top of the line planes. In many cases these planes can run with the full house planes under most conditions and are much easier to fly.

But if you properly build a $200 RES kit, properly reinforce the spar, you can run with the big boys. Kits from Skybench, MM Glidertech and others will give you fine flying 3M planes at a fraction of the cost of a Supra.

If you have some talent, you can build a Supra from parts for about 60% of the cost of a new molded plane. You can buy a fully bagged wing for $500. Add the fuse and some other components and you can have a Supra for under $900.

And there are often excellent used planes available at a good price. I purchased my Supra and my AVA used at about 60% of the cost of a new plane.

There is no shortage of good planes. There is a big shortage of good pilots. Be a good pilot first!

[oscillator]

Aeajr,

That was my point - lots of good used planes for far less money. Of course as you point out, if you are willing to build you can save even more. And I also agree, a good RES pilot can hang with the modern glass ships in calm conditions.

I'm just trying to re-enforce your point to those still sitting on the fence - Find something you are comfortable with (both flying and $$) and start entering contests.

Cheers!

[Ron Creager]

I just finished a Andromeda 2M electro-glider from Art Hobby's It fly's great. after being out of the hobby for over ten years. the new planes are incredible.

[aeajr]

So, let's get away from planes. They are fun to talk about, but the thread was started 5 years ago to talk about flying in a contest.

So, what tips can you provide to a new contest pilot. Someone like I was 5 years ago. I am no master pilot by any stretch of the imagination, but I have learned a few things along the way

Here are a few tips that have helped me greatly in thermal duration contests.

1) Birds - They are your best friends. Look for birds circling, they are in lift. Or, watch for birds or bats darting around in one spot. They may be feeding on insects that have been sucked into a thermal.


2) Plan your launch so that you can head for the spot you want to reach. Remember that you control the launch, so you can control what direction the launch takes you. Better to launch into the direction of the lift than to get a few extra feet and have to spend it getting back to where you wanted to go.


3) Watch the other pilots. Seeing gliders rising into the sky is your best lift indicator. There is nothing wrong with following the pack at a contest. If the lift is there, go after it! But be aware of the drift. If the high flying pilots are well down wind from you, consider whether you can make it to the lift safely and get enough height to get back.

Suppose you decided to chance that distant lift. If you do reach it, remember it will continue to move down wind. Will you be able to stay with it AND make it back? Sometimes the lift you can see is not the lift you want. If that lift dies, will you lose your plane? Losing your plane is not the way to have fun or to win contests.


4) Be a timer. Watching a talented pilot while you time for him/her is a lesson all by itself. And most pilots don't mind a little chatter while they fly. Many are very happy to teach you about flying. They may tell you why the went where they went. What was the indicator they were following. There is a LOT to learn from timing for other pilots. Some of my best flying lessons occurred when I was timing for top notch contest pilots.


5) Learn to feel the cycles. One of the best reasons to attend contests, even if you don't fly is to watch the planes, listen to the chatter and feel the air cycles.

During a contest, feel the changes in the wind. Wind moves from high pressure to low pressure, always. The prevailing wind might be from the west at 5 mph. Look for periodic changes in wind direction. Sometimes these things are very regular.

Watch were the pilots are finding lift. See if you can predict where they will find lift based on the wind cycles.

If you feel the wind die to nothing for a few moments, then seem to reverse direction for a little while, a thermal just passed over you and is moving. The wind change was likely caused by the thermal sucking in air all around it. You feel it as a drop in wind if the thermal is up wind of you. Think of it as the thermal "blocking" the wind.

If the thermal is close you might launch right into it, so be ready. Many times we fly right through them on the launch, then go hunting, when we were right in the middle of the lift.

If a cycle like this happens, watch the top pilots. You may see them launch and immediately turn down wind. They felt the thermal move through and are going after it.

I flew a contest once where the cycles were so regular you could almost set your watch. When it was my turn to fly, the cycle had the lift far down wind. It was further than I was willing to run. But the cycles had been passing through regularly for about 2 hours. So I launched and ran up wind. There were no lift indicators up wind and the launch area was in heavy sink.

I pushed out and out in the direction from which the thermals had been coming. Sure enough, I nailed it up wind. Next thing I know everyone is coming after me. :D Feel the cycles and you can predict where the lift will be.


5) Watch the ribbon. Building off of 4, having a ribbon on your antenna is vital. If you watch it move, it will normally point to the lift. The prevailing wind will have the ribbon blowing one way. But as thermals move through they will pull the wind direction and the ribbon will show this. If you have no lift indicators, but you see the ribbon veer off from the prevailing wind direction, go in the direction of the ribbon. The stronger the pull, the stronger the lift.

In a contest situation you can watch and feel and make your predictions. And you have other pilots who will help you prove your guess or show you that you were wrong. Or you may learn that the lift was were you predicted but there was also lift somewhere else. Hummm, could you have known that?


Contests are the best place to learn. Even if you come in last you will get a lesson that can not be received anywhere else. Even if it is just you and a few of your friends, declare a contest. It's like pick-up basketball games. No one really cares who wins. It just makes the day more fun! :)


Now it is your turn. What tips?

[rdwoebke]

Dwells,

You might post what contest you are planning on attending and hunt around here for some help winching ahead of time.

Winching does not have to be scary. It can be fun. The only downside for you to winching is over the years the winch line has became kind of heavy (strong) and for a plane with 600 square inches of wing area it will kind of drag it down on launch. You may well see that you are getting half the launch height of the other pilots. Don't let this discourage you. After you finish that Oly 3 you'll be able to haul up the winch line much better.

My #1 tip is just try to make the times. If you can make the times don't worry about the landings at first. If you make the times I have never seen a contest where you'll come in last by making the times. If you make the times you are having fun. So I'd suggest starting with that goal.

Ryan

[dwells]

Dwells,

You might post what contest you are planning on attending and hunt around here for some help winching ahead of time.

Winching does not have to be scary. It can be fun. The only downside for you to winching is over the years the winch line has became kind of heavy (strong) and for a plane with 600 square inches of wing area it will kind of drag it down on launch. You may well see that you are getting half the launch height of the other pilots. Don't let this discourage you. After you finish that Oly 3 you'll be able to haul up the winch line much better.

My #1 tip is just try to make the times. If you can make the times don't worry about the landings at first. If you make the times I have never seen a contest where you'll come in last by making the times. If you make the times you are having fun. So I'd suggest starting with that goal.

Ryan

Ryan,

Thanks. What carries more weight the timing or the landing spot? When does the timing start and stop? Sorry for the green questions :o .

Don

[aeajr]

Typical scoring is you get 1000 points for max time. A perfect landing would be 100 points. There are other scoring systems, but that is typical.

Typical time task is 8-12 minutes. You lose point for every second over or under the task.

I agree with Ryan. Work on your times first. Then your landings.

I posted a training program earlier in the thread. Take a look. Complete this and you will be well prepared.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11790904&postcount=129

[rdwoebke]

What carries more weight the timing or the landing spot? When does the timing start and stop? Sorry for the green questions :o .

Don

It depends on the contest, but typically the time in the air is worth 5-10 times as much as the landing points. In some contests the time in the air is worth 20 times the landing points (X5J Extreme for example). Ed gave a MOM example above and that is becoming very typical (1000 points for time 100 points for landing).

Timing starts when you leave the high start/winch and stops when the plane touches a ground based object. Typically that means it starts when the plane comes off the tow hook and stops when the plane touches ground.

Personally, if I went to a 5 round contest and made my time within 1 minute each round but only got landing points 2 times versus only got within 1 minute of my time 2 times but got landing points 5 times I'd have more fun in the former example. Neither example in this paragraph would likely result in a contest winner but for you as a beginner that is the kind of thing you might be able to expect.

Ryan

[rdwoebke]

To prepare I'd suggest this:

Next time you go out flying figure out how much time you have to spend at the field and divide by 15. So if you have 1 hour at the field, that comes out to 4. In general always practice 10 minute flights. Plan on doing 4 10 minute flights. Throw a hat in the field and use that as a landing target. Use your stop watch on the transmitter to time the flights and just try to get within 20 seconds of the time and within several big steps of the hat.

This is of course for a complete contest beginner. After doing the above then you can get yourself an actual landing tape (you make one from old folding chair straps) and a talking timer.

Ryan

[dwells]

Good info, thanks. I pretty much have landing down. It's the correlation between time and landing spot that get you there...got it. Will start timing on 10 min flights.

[rdwoebke]

Good info, thanks. I pretty much have landing down.

That is easy to say but then not always as easy to do in a contest. :) Been there.... :)

Ryan

[jrerickson]

One thing about the new plane/old plane discussion. While Ed stated that the pilot is more important than the plane (true), stating that you can be competitive with a lesser ship can be a bit misleading. An example would be in a 2 meter class where you are flying a Spirit and the guy next to you is flying an Image. The Image has a still air time of something like 1.5 feet per second. The Spirit is around 1.9 feet per second. The Image will launch to 600' while the Spirit on the same winch might get to 400'. In still air conditions this means that the Spirit is on the ground in 3 minutes 30 seconds while the Image touches down at 6 minutes 40 seconds.

It's true that a master pilot can do wonders with a plane, but late in the day when the wind is blowing and the thermals are few and far between you won't see many Spirits winning a contest.

I'm not saying this to discourage you but there's a reason the top guys fly top planes. My advice is to buy a good used plane and practice all the time. That way you won't give up much in the plane performance department and your skill level will rise with every contest you enter.

John

[tonyestep]

"...My advice is to buy a good used plane ..."
=================
This advice is widely given by experts like John, and for more than one reason. He cites the dead-air time, which is certainly valid. Another reason is the winchability. It takes much more skill to get a good launch with a breakable plane than with one that will withstand some mistakes of timing and launch management. If a beginner shows up with a Spirit or Aspire and has to cautiously tap-tap-tap it up to 250', he misses a lot of what the contest experience has to offer. A used Ava or Topaz or Artemis will deliver a lot more flying fun: less fear on the line, more time in the air, better chance of getting back from downwind, and overall superior handling. Leave the "beginner" planes to the experts, and get a plane that gives a beginner a chance.

[rdwoebke]

Well lets not go frightening folks off here... ;)

Definitely buying a well used but good quality plane is a great idea. If it came from a solid pilot even a battle scarred and several times fixed plane is great because it is already setup for indicating lift and flying straight and all that.

That said, some folks are not really able to fiscally justify getting a used plane like you two are describing and that is OK too. There is room for all kinds in this great big hobby. :) I think it would be more fun to go to a contest and get 250 foot launches with a Spirit and come in last than it would be to sit at home behind the interweb and wish about it...

But that is just me. I come in last lots. :) I flew my Gentle Lady in F3J at the 1998 Nats. I came in last. But, I can always say I flew F3J at the Nats... :)

DW, I bet you are really going to like that Oly III when you finish it. Even if you have just a month of flying time on it I bet you'd have a great time with it at a contest.

Ryan

[dwells]

DW, I bet you are really going to like that Oly III when you finish it. Even if you have just a month of flying time on it I bet you'd have a great time with it at a contest. Ryan

This is what I'm looking forward to Ryan. I know the Spirit isn't a winning platform this day and time and I'm very apprehensive about entering any contest with it. I am competitive in nature and won first place and best of show 2 years in a row at the State Fair of Texas for my ice cream. I knew going in that my frozen delight was a winner. I didn't expect to take home the glory but I knew I had the "platform" to place. From what hear, I think I'll just wait until I'm very familiar with the OlyIII. Thanks a bunch.

Don

[rdwoebke]

I think you can have fun with the Spirit if you can winch it. Back when I started flying contests I used to contest a Gentle Lady. I have flown that thing in contests in Indiana, Kentucky, Illinois, Ohio, Iowa, and New York. I often flew it in unlimited class. But back in the 1990s the winch line was a little lighter. I could winch it but of course I typically just got about 3/4 or 1/2 the altitude of the composite planes of the day. I bet you can probably winch the Spirit it just won't go terribly high.

I guess to me it boils down if you were to tell me there was a contest this weekend and you could either go to it or sit at home and work on the Oly then I'd suggest going to the contest with the Spirit... But if you were to tell me the contest in your area that you are looking at going to is in July and you'll have that Oly finished in May then I'll say no sweat you'll have a great time at the July contest with your Oly.

But either way, to be fair and honest (hopefully this does not scare anyone off) if you are flying in an unlimited contest with that Oly III then I'll tell you that you'll be entering with ice cream and some other guys are going to have bananna splits...

Ryan

[target]

I bought my used Psyko for $400.00 with all the gear, RTF, shipped to me.

While it's not a whiz-bang molded plane, I wouldn't be afraid to enter a contest with it, and would say that the money invested in that is better than the money for a new Spirit Elite and gear....

Just make sure to keep tuning whichever plane you have or get, and fly it a lot, and you'll do well.

Target,
Loving the Psyko, but looking forward to putting the gear into my Xplorer!

[oscillator]

Don,

You raise a good point - competing is more fun when you perform well (or win). That's human nature. Unfortunately not everyone can win - and unfortunately equipment (i.e. $$$ invested) can and does make a difference, but skill is still the most important element.

That said, I agree with the prior posts that contest can be the best educational experience out there. Due to contests I have:

-flown more
-flown at times I wouldn't have otherwise.
-pushed myself harder (i.e. scratched for lift when I would have just given up and landed if it wasn't a contest)
-more closely watched the flying of others (because I was timing)
-received more detailed coaching (because an expert pilot was timing/spotting for me)

Most pilots (without contest experience) will learn more in one or two contests than they would from an entire season of fun flying.

So go out there and start flying. Yeah, you would have to be real good AND lucky to win with a Spirit - but that doesn't mean you can't learn a ton doing it. And when you do get a competitive plane - look out!

And don't put off entering the OlyIII too long. My first contest was with a ship I had only taken to the field 3 times. Once your competent you can launch and land the ship without incident then that's good enough. Flying it in a contest with an experienced pilot by your side will greatly accelerate your learning curve!

Happy Landings!
Mark

[aeajr]

One thing about the new plane/old plane discussion. While Ed stated that the pilot is more important than the plane (true), stating that you can be competitive with a lesser ship can be a bit misleading. An example would be in a 2 meter class where you are flying a Spirit and the guy next to you is flying an Image. The Image has a still air time of something like 1.5 feet per second. The Spirit is around 1.9 feet per second. The Image will launch to 600' while the Spirit on the same winch might get to 400'. In still air conditions this means that the Spirit is on the ground in 3 minutes 30 seconds while the Image touches down at 6 minutes 40 seconds.

It's true that a master pilot can do wonders with a plane, but late in the day when the wind is blowing and the thermals are few and far between you won't see many Spirits winning a contest.

I'm not saying this to discourage you but there's a reason the top guys fly top planes. My advice is to buy a good used plane and practice all the time. That way you won't give up much in the plane performance department and your skill level will rise with every contest you enter.

John

Well Duh! Of course the top of the line planes are better then the entry level planes. Who doesn't know that? Why else would people buy them.

That has little to do with going to your first contest. Too much focus on winning and not enough focus on fun and learning.

You can't be competitive if you don't go. And, if you won't go till you can afford a competitive plane, you may never go.

Fly what you got!. Have fun! Learn a lot! Worry about being competitive later.

Do you realize how much you will learn about airplanes at a contest? Who is flying what. What people think of various planes.

Do you realize the BEST place to find a good used plane is at a contest? The real competitive guys are always upgrading. And the middle of the road guys are upgrading too.

Your Olly III will do fine when you get it built. Fly the Spirit now and build the Olly and don't worry about the rest.

Go for personal bests now and don't worry about how you finish. There is plenty of time for that. :D

[Kenny Sharp]

My first hand launch contest, I brought a beaten up 40 in. DLG.
I didn't care...I just wanted to fly!

Get yourself to a contest....the rest will take care of itself.

[aeajr]

Yes! What Ken said!


If you are any good at covering, you can strip off the covering on the Spirit wings and add some thin carbon fiber tape to the spars. It will add a little strength. Also make sure the joiner box is well wrapped with unwaxed dental floss, kevlar tow or carbon tow. Then cover it back.

Something like this will help and you won't have to modify the spar or sheeting to do it because it is thin.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXB964&P=ML

Or you can do a little fitting and sanding and use this carbon strip for more strength.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXB965&P=ML

Now you have a "souped up" Spirit. It still won't take a full pedal launch but you are less likely to damage it after this reinforcement.

[aeajr]

We had an F5J type e-glider contest this past weekend. First time I did one of those. Fun!

Our first unlimited sailplane is next weekend and, wouldn't you know it, I have to be out of town on business. :( And that would be the last thing I need for my level 2 LSF.

Oh well, there will be others.