Learning to build... buy a cheap kit to start on first?

[fprintf]

I have never built a balsa kit before, although there are several people locally who have offered to answer any questions I might have. I have my eye on a 100" SkyBird or a 117(?)" marauder.

In order to try out my building skills I thought perhaps it might be better to invest a little in myself first and buy a $44 Gentle Lady kit. I can build it just for the fun of building and honing my building/gluing skills and also ensure that my building surfaces are straight. I was thinking I might even leave it uncovered, because assuming all goes well then I can plonk down the bigger cash on the larger planes a little later this winter and still have time to finish the plane for spring flying.

Sound like a waste of money or a good idea?

I have heard from Ollie and others to plan on building two planes of the same kind. So if I choose a Big Bird then to plan on purchasing another one to apply all the things I have learned on the first one. That sounds like a good idea except I am still not sure I have the skills to build a balsa plane, never having built one before.

[Sparky Paul]

The GL is a very good starter... And it's a good flier.
2nd in sequence might be the GP Spirit, before you go whole hog into a really large plane.
Flying experience, which the GL will deliver, is as important as the airframe.

[Vince inTX.]

First let me put some of your fear to rest. If you ever built a box from pop sicle sticks, you can build a balsa plane. The only knowledge/ability you need to ad, is the ability to glue the sticks "straight and square". Know what to sand and when to stop sanding. These planes are no harder to build than a complicated plastic display model (instructionwise that is). It's just that now all of the detail is on the inside.

The first plane I built was a GL back in 1986 it is still flying. 15 years after the initial build I took off the monokote and looked at it in the light of 15 years additional experience. I still dont know how the he** that thing flew before the rebuild. The glue joints were weak, in some places there wasn't even wood to wood contact, and I only sanded enough to blunt the edges. But that thing flew well enough for the short time I flew it, just after I built it. I guess what this all boils down to is this; jump in and have fun with it. Glue your finger together a few times, glue your finger to a rib or two (it will happen). Dont sweat the weight too much on your first build. It will be heavy. Concentrate on "straight and square". As long as it looks like a plane when you are finished it WILL fly!

Good luck and have fun

Vince

[John Gallagher]

The GL kit comes with die-cut ribs and will have to be matched. It's still a good kit to learn to build.
I've seen your name before and I checked your profile. The GL will be much lighter and fly slower than your Highlander.

John

[fprintf]

Thanks for all the advice.

I have been flying the Highlander for two seasons now, and when concentrating typically can land with wings level approximately where I want and will do 3 or 4 contests this year, time and funds permitting. So I feel it is time to make the jump to a decent performing larger plane. The GL kit is now laser cut, although I do expect some degree of matching and sanding based on the inaccuracies that seem to have plagued this kit.

I just didn't want to screw up $130 worth of balsa on my first try. I have heard that the new laser cut kits are much easier to build than the old diecut ones, so my fears are probably unfounded.

p.s. the other thing is, it'll take me longer to save up $130 than it will to sneak a $50 package past my spouse and I am aching to build something in this long cold winter.

p.p.s. I looked back at some of my posts over the past two years ago and lo and behold I have been asking some of the same questions, usually between January and February! I guess I better just get busy and give this a go!

[Rob Nelson]

The GL is a great choice. The Spirit is also worth consideration...comperable in price and the kit goes together well. Make sure you cover it as this is an art in itself. I'm sure you will enjoy your GL for years, not to mention the enjoyment and satifaction of building.
Cheers,
Rob

[T. Lyttle]

Yeah, my GL is old,old, old, and still does everything I demand of it, from riding itsy-bitsy bubbles to finding where the strongest lift is on the slope, to just plain jerking around (climbing in a thermal... upside down!). I probably taught a hundred people to fly GLs, without one catastrophe. Find someone who will give you some guidance, both for building and flying, and success will be yours. The big ones are fine, but unless you are foam-at-the-mouth competitor, the GL will serve well.

[John Gallagher]

You should also consider something like Skybench's Lil'Bird 2 meter. I haven't built one, but saw Ray Hays fly one and I was impressed. It builds very light and has an airfoil that penetrates better than the flat bottom airfoil of the GL.

If you are set on a GL, there's one choice you will have to make. Do you build a one piece wing - simple and light, or do you go with the optional removable tip panels for a three piece wing - a little heavier but easier to transport? When it comes to selling a one-piece wing the shipping would be costly. Then again you will probably find someone local who will want to buy. At least twice, I saw a GL for sale on ebay where the non-pilot seller took a hacksay to the center section of the wing to make it shippable. Instant two piece wing.

John

[fprintf]

John,

Its a toss up right now over what plane to get. Eventually I'll decide - the only reason I didn't buy the LilBird2 already is that it is relatively expensive at $90 vs. the BigBird at $120.

No offense intended to anyone in this thread, but I am not going to get a Spirit. They get good reviews here but the people that I fly with locally, who are very experienced contest fliers *and* teachers, are not impressed. Apparently because of the airfoil it flies too fast for small thermals and relatively inexperienced thermal hunting thumbs. And I have read here that the only reason the plane ever got the following it has is that its claim to fame is that it won a major contest in 1991 out west. My local friends are impressed, however, with the LilBird 2meter. And I think that the planform is just so gorgeous.

Other planes still on my short-list:
- www.laserartco.com Sovereign
- www.djaerotech.com Chrysalis 2M

I have to keep in mind that any contest flying is a very small part of my annual flying experience. Like maybe 1% worth. So perhaps it is worth giving up on the idea of the Big Bird and instead going with the plane that'll get the most flying time off my histart - a 2 meter with spoilers.

[Ollie]

Go with the Soverign if price is important. Go with the LilBird 2 if looks are more important. In the long run you won't be sorry you spent a few extra bucks for a precision laser cut kit, not only because of the precision but also because of superior wood quality. if you get stuck during building your flying buddies that have experience with the Lil Bird 2 can help you, as can Ray Hayes.

The airfoils for the Lil Bird 2 and the Spirit are similar and the glide speeds will be similar if the wing loadings are similar. The Spirit kit will be easier to sneek into the house if you buy it at the LHS instead of mail order. The Spirit kit will be harder to build well because of the lack of precision laser cut parts.

[jgleigh]

The Chrysalis would be a good choice - the kit goes together very easily and cleanly, and it is an excellent flier. The wing is very strong, and the airfoil penetrates well without losing much at the slow end. I have seen a couple of Sovereigns fly, and IMHO the Chrysalis is better.

[fprintf]

Plus the Chrysalis comes with spoilers and all the hardware. An added plus, to be sure, for a new builder who has no idea how to design spoilers.

[gdjsky01]

Don't forget the Bird of Time. $65 is hard to beat from Tower...

Just a thought.
Jeff

[Ollie]

You will learn more from building a cheap kit. One of the things you will learn is the value of a quality kit.

"The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

[stephen.s1]

Stuart, don't forget that I've built, own, and still fly both the (2) lil' birds and the Chrysalis. LB is better on the winch and wind than the Chry which flutters it's stab on anything more than a very gentle launch. Dead air; seems to be a toss up... Ya pays yer money and ya....

[jgleigh]

stephen.s1 wrote:

"LB is better on the winch and wind than the Chry which flutters it's stab on anything more than a very gentle launch"

Interesting. I built the Chrysalis with the X (or inverted T, however you want to express it) tail, and have not had any problems with flutter on some fairly hard winch launches. Maybe the V-tail, being longer, is more prone to problems? (I chose the regular tail because I have found V-tail RE ships to sometimes be sluggish in initiating turns)

[stephen.s1]

Ooops, should have mentioned that my Chy does have a V tail.

[John Gallagher]

Originally posted by fprintf
John,
No offense intended to anyone in this thread, but I am not going to get a Spirit. They get good reviews here but the people that I fly with locally, who are very experienced contest fliers *and* teachers, are not impressed. Apparently because of the airfoil it flies too fast for small thermals and relatively inexperienced thermal hunting thumbs. And I have read here that the only reason the plane ever got the following it has is that its claim to fame is that it won a major contest in 1991 out west.


It was used to win the nationals 2 meter class. Some say that it was the pilot not the plane, yet the glider has been popular ever since.

Originally posted by fprintf

I have to keep in mind that any contest flying is a very small part of my annual flying experience. Like maybe 1% worth. So perhaps it is worth giving up on the idea of the Big Bird and instead going with the plane that'll get the most flying time off my histart - a 2 meter with spoilers.

Don't overlook starting with a larger glider - 2.5 meter gliders are no more difficult to fly than 2 meter gliders and they definately have better weak thermal potential. It wasn't that long ago that a lot of people started with Paragons.

John

[John Gallagher]

Take a look at http://www.rcsoaring.com/
Click on Sailplanes on Ebay.
You'll find some older kits on auction. As I write this a 2.5 meter Olympic II kit is going for $60. 45 minutes left.

John

[houdini]

I've built both the Gentle Lady and Little Bird, and I would definitely recommend the GL to a beginner. Here's why.

The GL's wing is much, much easier to build, in my opinion. It is completely flat on the bottom, which means the entire bottom of the wing surface sits flush on your table while you build. As long as your building table is flat, you should have a straight wing. The leading and trailing edges are also already cut to shape and don't require a lot of sanding. I only wish the GL's wing had the top sheeting that extended all the way to the tips, like the Sophisticated Lady's wing. But this is an extremely easy modification to add if you like.

The LB's wing, though it does have a pretty planform, is considerably more difficult to build, despite having lazer-cut ribs. For starters, it is sheeted on both the top and bottom, and it isn't a completely flat-bottom wing. You will have to use shims under the wing's bottom sheeting, which lifts part of the wing off your building table. The shear webs are time-consuming to install, especially the thicker ones at the root which fit between the top and bottom spars. In order to install the leading edge (which comes completely square and requires considerable sanding), you must trim excess wing sheeting off both the top and bottom wing sheeting so that they are flush with the rib heads. The trailing edge assembly (made from two thin strips sandwiching the rib end) will also require some sanding. The pretty gull-shaped outer-wing panels present some challenges of their own. The ribs at the widest part of the chord are actually taller than the other ribs, which means means the top wing sheeting is not only being curved along the airfoil but also from the tip to the polyhedral joint. This complex curve made covering the top of the outer wing panels impossible without getting wrinkles. You must also take great care in weighting down the wing to hold it flat against your building table when installing the top sheeting, or you will get warps. In my kit, the supplied wing tips were not the same thickness as the tip ribs (tips weren't thick enough) and the supplied sheer webs weren't tall enough for the thicker section in the outer wing panels.

I'm not saying the LB has a bad wing; actually, for a built-up wooden wing, it's definitely one of the stronger ones out there, and it offers good wing penetration. But it is considerably more difficult to build than many others out there and I wouldn't recommend it to a first-time builder.

I built my first Gentle Lady when I was 15 and it went together beautifully. It also is a great flyer which is very easy to set up and fly. I've heard the new Gently Lady kit is laser-cut, and that should make it just that much better.

Just my $.02

Houdini

[Sparky Paul]

I looked at the GL ARF.. the wing is much better than the kit version... sheeted top and bottom, out to the tip.
I'd buy the ARF if I needed another 2M wing quickly.
Fuselage nose is too short.
Nothing a lot of lead can't fix though. :)
One improvement to the Spirit is to sheet the upper leading edge on the tip panels, to delay the tip-stall somewhat.
I've done that on both mine, and it appears to work, but they can still t-s when pushed hard.

[schrederman]

Just my opinion, but in the club situation you're in, a slightly more complex model might be OK. We did the Houston Hawk as a club project, and a first-time builder completed #2. It flys great. I am not a GL fan, nor a Spirit fan. Another of our members built the 2-meter Little Bird from Skybench as his first build, and he was successful. I flew this model and was impressed with it. Someone mentioned an Oly II. Another realy good choice, as is the Paragon. Another really good model seems to be the Sceptre from Laser Arts. These are all laser cut models that are engineered well, and fit together well. There are so many choices, I wouldn't sell myself short on a GL or Spirit. Not bashing, just expressing my opinion...

Best of luck with whatever you build.

Jack Womack