Why are things so expensive ?

[FAA]

Why is it that when it comes to subs, everything is so much more expensive than other areas of the hobby ?

I have been working with electric aircraft and helicopters for years and when I started in subs recently I am "shocked" at the "we will rip you off and you will like it, because we talk to you a little longer, show up at events" attitude that exists with the few vendors that are out there supplying submarine parts.

Fiber glass hull prices that are more expensive than the best aircraft fuselages that I have seen.

Electronics that are far simpler in design and complexity than electric aircraft systems, gyros and autopilots that sell for 3 to 4 times more.

WTC's. Why should they cost what they do ?
Scale Shipyard has better prices, but even they are too high in my book.

Seems to me that we need a little Asian manufacturing help here to get these prices down.

Any thoughts or comments ?

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Up until recently there were only two cheap ready to run submarines.

Everything else in model submarines was scratch built, or hand manufactured one piece at a time. If it takes three hours to build something most people want to be paid a decent wage for those three hours.

Also model submarines has been a niche market. If you manufactured a hull, it really only was marketable to probably ten percent or less of the overall model boating consumers.
So the few hull manufactures out there that took the time to produce the masters for creating the molds will charge in an attempt to break even selling fewer hulls. I would also speculate that the some hull manufacturers have day jobs.

If you are a handy craftsman you can make any electronics do the work required. But many model builders are not scratch builders, and many of all builders are not electronic engineers. Those that can will build everything those that can't are subject to the prices inherent to a small and often hand crafted niche market.

[FAA]

First off.

Excellent web site Umi_Ryuzuki !


Now to our topic:

I don't agree to your argument about small selling potential or quantities.

When people in the RC airplane world produce custom molds and create masterpieces that don't even come close in detail and quality to the "best" submarine hull sold out there (exception are the German model subs), and can sell them for prices that are two and three times less than what the RC submarine community sells their hulls for, there is something wrong.

Steve Neill (to name one) is very well known in his field in the electric forum creates and sells beautyfull large fiberglass jets, which he will typically will produce and sell 20 copies of, and his prices are no where near the "shock and awe" that I have when I see the prices that the RC sub websites (commercial web sites) are asking for.


You are right about the niche market. I hope this will change now that more and more people are paying attention at this hobby.

What I find funny is the two and three individuals that call themselves the "fathers" of RC submarining, and they want you, in-directly of course, to buy all their stuff and products because they have been developed through years of practice and fine tunning, etc etc... Please, these folks need to get a life !

Anyone that spends a week in this hobby will see that the Europeans are the ones that have done most of the developing here, and their products today are like night and day when compared to ours.

I still want to know how this one guy gets away with charging over $400 !!! for a water tight cylinder 3" in diameter and maybe 18" in length. That just blows my mind !

Lets see, McMaster Carr is the website for most of these parts, 3" PVC clear pipe $12 for 18" cut. End caps, PVC also, O-rings are $8 per 25 or 50 depending on quality ....etc etc . Do you see where I am going with this ?

People need to start saying enough is enough here.

And in all the years the "Subcommittee Report" is published only 4 issues have talked about "How to build a WTC and ballast system " God forbid anyone reveals the secrets here or everyone is going to loose their jobs.

Has anyone wondered or asked "Why don't we have more detailed construction articles here about those parts of the submarine that cost the most ?"

Go figure !

If I hadn't been the RC hobby for over 20 years and I just started with submarines, I would propably think all this is normal, but comming from the aircraft and heli world, its like I stepped into some Dark Gothic world !

Some light please ! .....

:D :D

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Thanks for the compliment FAA.

Well I would love to give you more than just a mini mag light for your insight to R/C Sub costs, but I think it comes down to, "how much can you really give away?". I like to support the hobby as much as possible, and I am a firm believer, given my own introduction to the hobby, that anyone can become a scratch builder. I am willing to provide that support and education to the best of my knowledge.

As for parts, materials and labor for non personal projects, there really is only so much that should be given away. I feel bad when I take four machined and finished pieces from some one for little more than material cost. And I try to "tip" them handsomely.
It is not something I have the machinery, or skill for at this time.


Construction is certainly not secret, but it does take tools and time to construct fittings properly. There is also the time to research things like the proper seal bearings, and find the supplier for a consistent source for all the parts and materials.
That in and of itself is a semi precious commodity.
As for the existing submarine mechanical suppliers, their pricing is really something best and more fairly debated with them, or at least in their presence. ;)

Regardless, we hope to see some great ships lauched from your shop.
:cool:

Aimee

[ThorDesign]

zzz

[FAA]

Originally posted by ThorDesign
I guess I am one of those guys that you are railing against here. For starters, if you know ANYTHING about manufacturing epoxy glass it is extremely expensive. My average hull runs about $400.00. I spend between 15-20 hours on each and every kit I sell. My materials run about half of the total cost. So you figure it out. Take that $200.00 left for what is not materials you get $200.00/20 hours. That is $10.00 /hr. Is that ripping you guys off? I certainly do not think so. I spend on average $1,500 per mold. That must be recouperated to keep myself in business.

The other thing you are forgetting is that you guys demand true accurate scale models. I spend sometimes 2-3 years researching a boat to assure your stuff is accurate. Do I not deserve to be compensated in some way for that? Unlike these airplane fuselages you are talking about, I have made those as well, you cannot walk into a store and just buy a set of plans that are accurate. Subs are a MUCH different animal. If you get a el cheapo boat made in China you pay much less sure. Check out Bob Violett's kits. He charges $1000s of dollars for them. They are the best and they are worth it.

Dave Merriman spends about 20 hours making a single WTC. He charges $400.00 and spend about $30.00 in materials. They are a tremendous amount of work! Again, Dave would make more money working at McDonalds.

If you guys do not like it, don't buy it! This stuff is a lot of work and I make no apologies for what I charge. At the end of the year I have not much to show for all of this work. There is VERY little money in this. I do it for the enjoyment, not the money. Keep in mind this is all hand made. There are no shops kicking this stuff out by the $1000s. If you cannot afford it, go do it yourself and see how much work it is. Demand vs supply. There is very little of each. If there was more demand, I could afford to buy a large injection molding machine and cut the kit cost by 70%, but that is not the reality now. Maybe someday.


As far as the Europeans go, they have their way and we have ours. I have been over there and seen some of their boats. Some are indeed impressive! The average boat there is NO more or less complicated that ours. In fact, most of the German boats I saw were dry hulls and weighed a million pounds. I see very little advantage in building as they do.

Best Regards,

Matt Thor
ThorDesign

Thank you Matt for your "informative" statements.

The part I enjoyed the most was "If you guys do not like it, don't buy it! "

You still did not answer why the airplane folks charge so much less for far more detailed work.

And yes, I do know about glass works quite well and what is involved. If you spent some time in the other sections of RCGroups you would see for yourself the price difference.

And I am talking about American made molds not imports.

Your response sounds more arrogant than anything of value.

Thank you for justifying my opening post ....

[ThorDesign]

edited for content

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Now FAA, These boards should be much more civil than that.

If you want to truely compare the hobbies, then ask your self this.
Why do the Micro turbines cost 3,000 dollars or more?

Here is a kit from Jet hangar hobbies.
I would say that the prices are more than comparable to the
R/C submarine industries.

[/Aircraft Kit & Components Retail Price Our Price
BAe Hawk ARF Kit (Kit Features and Specifications) -- $695.00
Accessories------------------------------------------------------ $50.00
Spring Air 507JH---------------------------------------------- $200.00
Turbax 48/OS 46VX-DF Engine/Mac's #1250 MTP ------$425.00

SPECIAL PACKAGE PRICE --------------------------------- $1,340.00


A ducted fan power system from Bob Violett runs $950
F86 sabre Fiberglass fuselage by Bob Violett -----$1295
I suppose you might want landing gear, ------------$780
Feul cell.............................................. ............--------$49
Mounting hardware for the Ducted fan---------------$125
.................................................. ...........................$3199
This is a ducted fan model, not even a gas turbine.
Do you question Mr, Violett's integrity?
His company charges up to $438 just for the hardware to install a jet turbine. "(specify engine type)" you have to tell him what turbine you are purchasing.

I think you really have to look at this in the correct perspective here.

Umi_Ryuzuki

[reaper]

i have been r/c submaring for 4 years now,and had purchased my first basic hull in my first year.As far as costs go,submarines & equipment are not cheap,but i think for manufacturers pricing it is reasonable.I do know a sub builder here in canada,& his examples to some are very high priced.But he spends considerable ammounts of time in details & keeping parts scale like etc....I had purchased a plan of a hull i was interested in,& i have been working on it for 3 years on & off,by the time i am finished i will be into it for close to $1000.purchasing r/c subs & equipment is well worth it in my opinion....r/c subs also take years & years of investigating,& information to make a design "accurate".When a sub is built & operating sufficiently,the money issue is irrealavent,I think it takes a certain "breed" of person to own & operate a submarine....FAA If you are just starting out in r/c submarines try a "basic" kit for starters,a dynamic diver,there are a few manufacturers that produce them for a very reasonable price,Rather jumping into something big & expensive,It will teach you lots of things!,As it did for me!.Cheers!

[BrittB]

FAA,
Subs aren't cheap by no means but, I think they rate right up there with helicopters and gas turbine jets. If you don't like the prices of the current gear on the market, build your own or go buy a Dumas sub. Maybe then, you will start to get a clue on what Matt's talking about.

[FAA]

Obviously most of you find Matt Thors response civil right ?

Thats fine ...

Also, very curious that BritB registerd today and the first post he wants to post on is this one (????). Seen that one before.....(please be more original here guys!)



In any case, just to bring you folks up to date:

In my "hangers":

1- Engel Lafayete
1- Delta
1- Dumas Bluefish + Mike Subworks Ballast Conversion
1- 32nd parallel Ohio 1/96 + 3.5" DM WTC
1- Robbe U-47 + Engel 750 ml tank +Brass deck + AA Coning tower and guns.
1- Scale Shipyard Akula 1/96 + 3"DM WTC

Now, since I DO have a few subs, I feel that some "level" of credibility exists in my comments. (Yes, I am lucky enough to have enough discresionary income to play with).

I also own 6 RC heli's, over 45 built and un-built model aircraft. I have more years in the RC hobby than I care to think about.

If any of you know me from my construction articles on the electric flight side of the house you would know better WHO I am here on Ezone and in the RC hobby. In any case, be that as it may, the point still remains.

This does not mean that I agree with Matt Thor's comments. In fact I find Matt Thor to arrogant and obnoxious in his response. He obviously does not know how to have a discusion and acts like a child in his reponse.

Comparing Turbine Jets to RC Submarines is like comparing a commercial aircraft flight to a space launch.

I own a BVM Cat and I can tell you right now that it does NOT compare in complexity, sophistication, workmanship, performance or support equipment to an RC submarine.

As a member of subcommittee, I have not seen anything that even comes near a turbine RC jet, in any of the regattas, and to even use that as a comparison is night and day.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well, I think you read the thread with a chip on your shoulder.
I read Matt's post as a list of facts. You obviouly have a lot of experience. But your first post here in Submarines is rather terse.

I started in subs recently I am "shocked" at the "we will rip you off and you will like it, ...

And I think for Matt to say nothing further than " If you don't like it don't buy it" , which is his opinion, (and obviously yours) is being well restrained. You have lots of experience, lots of skill, and you have that choice.

I suppose you can by a cheap f-86 for an electric ducted fan. However, try building a model submarine out of cheap molded foam, a Modified 380 Motor with some brass fittings and a propeller, and see how well that sails. Do you have to try to keep the water out of a ducted fan? Not really an issue. The environment for a submarine is much harder on equipment. Of course if you lose radio signal a sub won't crash either.
Humans on a whole have more knowledge about space than they do about what is on the bottom of this planets oceans. And if you examine the list, there are not alot of submarines built that can explore those depths. It is not necessarily simple
______________________________________________


I actually know Brit. (and he won't build ME a submarine ;) )

He has mastered and tested two submaine hulls. The Blueback, and an Alpha class. If you hunt around Subcommittee his name will probably come up.

As a crafts"man" I see lots of cool artwork,wood toys and others' hobby engineering. I really like what I see, but would I pay $400 or more for some those items? I try not to, so I don't buy it. Especially not, if I can build it myself, or if I can find a local talent to build it for me. (britt won't build me a submarine :rolleyes: )
I have someone working on a turbine engine(by the way,we need a new lead for an inconel turbine fan manufacuter.) He wants to build two. And the parts are amazingly simple. That simplicity is what makes a jet turbine so amazing.
Cost of parts anywhere near 3000 dollars? I don't think so.

There is a submarine I want to build. (and brit won't build it for me) :D :rolleyes:
Will I purchase one of the existing WTC's?
Not if I can build it myself, or get someone local to build it for me. ;)
That's my opinion, but I don't need to attack anyone for my beliefs.

[FAA]

Your points are well taken Umi.

I also apologize about Brit and to Brit, but it was a little too "fishy" to have your first post on RCGroups end up on this thread.


I still believe that much of the equipment offered on the market is overpriced.

As Matt said, there are a limited number of suppliers for this niche market.

I guess at present, and given the ecomomic realities of US market, this will not change. I hope it does, because it would open up the hobby of submarining to a broader number of people, and thats a good thing.

The more people come into the market, the more vendors and competition will begin.

Nick

[ThorDesign]

zzz

[BrittB]

Yes, I signed up today. Yes, I know at least two people in this thread, neither of which knew I had signed up. Umi, if you want to drive my boat, all you have to do is ask. If you want one for your very own, I'm always open to cool trades.

I have been doing rc subs for a while now, 5-6 years, and I have had the pleasure of getting to talk, know, or email most of the big names in this model submarine community. Not one of them has become wealthy from making hulls, kits, electronics, WTC's etc... Most of them have full time jobs and families. They, like me, do this in their spare time. Most of them just do it to provide others with subject matter that no one else supplies. All of them try to please everyone, but, sometimes that's just not possible. They also stand behind their products and have customer support that sometimes blows my mind. Skip Assay of Subtech comes to mind.

I know you already have some subs in your pen, FAA. However, for others reading along, there are some bargins out there for the first time submariner. Subtech and Small World Models come to mind. You can buy the subs made by Dumas if you don't mind having a non- scale submarine model that won't stay underwater.

Thor Designs offer high quality hull kits that are true top of the line products. The cost reflects the kits. Same goes for a lot of other small companies out there. D&E Miniatures offers some of the best WTC's out there. Again, you get what you pay for. Subtech has the best electronics, Small World Models has some really good almost ready to run kits at a reasonable cost. If you are someone who enjoys a little scratch building, you can get a great head start from The Scale Shipyard, which carries a nice line of fiberglass hulls.

All of you people I just mentioned can start sending me the endorsment checks anytime now.:D

Britt

[BrittB]

Merriman, you pay in cash! Yes, a postage stamp will be fine.;)

Britt

[KOEZE]

I have seen the photo's of Matt's boats and have to say that they look very authentic. In fact I have only seen one that may be equal or better in quality than Matt's. I have to add to this that I haven't seen any of the models for real or the originals for that matter.

I'm a scratch builder. I therefore know how much painstaking research goes into building a model and building it accurately. Navy's never seen to keen to reveal much detail about their most lethal weapons. Remember how long it took before the existance of the F-117 was even confirmed. I believe it flew for a couple of years before anyone even had a good photo of it.

There's also very often very subtle differences between boats of the same class which has to be researched.

Aircraft on the other hand are rarely true scale models (you'll probably flame me for saying this) but wingprofiles, propellors, exhaust pipes, cilinder heads and lots of other stuff on a plane is very common too be not to scale. And with a very good reason of course. Flying characteristics are closely related to them. Aerodynamics on the model are different than with the original because of the fact that they must fly. Speeds are not to scale and therefore the airflow around the plane not.

Submarines can be fully to scale and be operated without compromize. This is what many submarine modellers strive to achieve.

I've looked over the prices of Matt's hull's and have to say that I would have great difficulty building a hull myself, being that accurate, for that price. With the price comes the guarantee that everything fits, the backup that other modellers built that same boat so that you can exchange expirences etc...........

I would love to start flying. The cost of building an aircraft is holding me back as I know I would want nothing less than a gas turbine powered aircraft. The trajectory from a trainer aircraft to a scale Tomcat is just too expecive.

What I want to say with this is :
If you don't like the price find something else.

If I were to buy a hull, one of Matt's was sure to be at the very top of my list for accuracy and price.

Just my 2 cents worth

[BrittB]

Koeze said, "There's also very often very subtle differences between boats of the same class which has to be researched."

Man, that is so true. For example, the Barbel class of which there were only three boats built, were so different from each other that I can most times look at a photo and tell you which boat it is without having sail numbers to go by.
This is typical of how deep you have to study your subject in the word of subs. How does one look at a P-51 and know if it's a B or C model, or a B-17G and know if it's a Boeing, Douglas, or Vega built aircraft if it has no markings? There are some things in aircraft that you can gloss over on and nobody ever knows or cares about. You make one little mistake on a sub and the world comes knocking at your door. Matt has no choice but to fret over the small details. For this, he should be compensated for his time and trouble. If it weren't for the Matt's, Davids, Skips,and Lee's out there. More subs would be like the Dubour Skipjack! God forbid!!!

BrittB

[cadman 2]

FAA I know how you feel. I have tried to get info on how to make my own WTC's and any other things necessary to make an operating sub. No replies so far. As an anything (trains, planes, cars,boats, etc) modeler I find all the other builders willing to share their secrets with anyone. No so Sub modelers. I was tempted to join the Sub Committee, but after reading their "reports" it appears they are more historians than people willing to share their expertice. So I will just build a static sub kit or do a lot of experimenting. By the way, there are many modeliers that would like to build an operating sub, but dont care to have it 100% historicaly correct, and volumn makes more profit than one or two of something. Leave the builder to make it as acurate as he wishes.

[KOEZE]

homebrew WTC (http://www.rc-submarines.com/id60.htm)
Just a little googling...

Maybe if you know where to look you'll find a lot more.
I can tell you that there are very comprehensive manuals how to build your own laminated hull, you to make wtc's how to seal prop shafts, diving systems, piston tanks, x-mixers (for x-rudder subs) how to make the pushrods go through the bulkhead.
Ive even found schematics for a depth and pitch controller in the net.

A large article on how to build a rocket launcher and multiple discussions on the subject. Torpedo launchers, underwater camera's, dataloggers, videooverlay (to display measerements (from the logger) on the video image, speed controllers.

Use your creativity and think your own and Google.

EJK

[AntoineL]

Please do not forget to thank and congratulate the people who made the beautiful masters that makes the beautiful models you can buy...

And always a special thanks (again...) to Dave Merriman III , this guy is not only a great modeler but a great man.

Antoine

[Darrin H]

Matt, I purchased one of your alfa kits ten years ago to this date. Your hull is still remembered as the finest workmanship I have seen. Your price was great back then and is still the best deal for the quality. (Besides, who else has access to an Autoclave) You dont always get what you pay for in this hull business. There are a few overpriced POS's out there. I have scratchbuilt a German 212 in 1/48th scale and once considered "kitting" it. There was no way I could break even on the manufacturing so I decided to sell the molds. (2 times) My average time on one hull is six hours. I am now on my 8th scratch built submarine model. The deepflight 1 in sixth scale. Should be a real blast in the pool. www.deepflight.com
Keep up the great work Matt

[Darrin H]

Dec 13
FAA writes.............Well I did it !

I took the plunge.

After years of thinking about it, I decided to get into submarines. I joined the Subcommittee and picked up two subs

The Dumas USS Bluefish, which I will modify to a 3" WTC with balast tanks and a Robbe U-47 which I also will use an Engle 750 6v Piston tank, an auto pitch, and an accurate armour CT.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Less than one month later he is the ambassador to rc submarines. Try making something watertight to 18 feet. It isn't about how many submarines you can buy in 29 days nor how many posts you have. (these guys always have mega post #s)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 12 Faa writes.................. (29 days later)

In any case, just to bring you folks up to date:

In my "hangers":

1- Engel Lafayete
1- Delta
1- Dumas Bluefish + Mike Subworks Ballast Conversion
1- 32nd parallel Ohio 1/96 + 3.5" DM WTC
1- Robbe U-47 + Engel 750 ml tank +Brass deck + AA Coning tower and guns.
1- Scale Shipyard Akula 1/96 + 3"DM WTC

Now, since I DO have a few subs, I feel that some "level" of credibility exists in my comments. (Yes, I am lucky enough to have enough discresionary income to play with).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Most of us come from huge rc backgrounds. I too have flown helicopters/pattern /slope/micro/scale blah. blah. blah. RC submarines have been the most challenging aspect of rc models for me. I fly for a few months but keep coming back to the subs.
Why dont you put a piece of pvc in a lathe and turn an endcap yourself. Then try to figure out the 20 thousandths if an inch shrinkage associated with the casting urethane along with the subtle differences in polycarbonate tubes. If you can keep the tube from fogging after 3 hours in the water at a half atmosphere, I would be impressed.

DH

:D

[cadman 2]

EJK I tried to access the web site you had listed and all I got was "page not found" Also I have searched Google and I didn't have any luck on WTC's. I have some knowledge on shaft seals being a retired design engineer of turbine engines but I will keep trying. Thanks any way

[Merriman]

Originally posted by cadman 2
EJK I tried to access the web site you had listed and all I got was "page not found" Also I have searched Google and I didn't have any luck on WTC's. I have some knowledge on shaft seals being a retired design engineer of turbine engines but I will keep trying. Thanks any way



Cadman,


Try, www.vabiz.com/d&e. Some good dope on WTC's there. My site.

You too, FAA.

And, FAA: I'm sure you can teach me a lot of things -- what with all those minutes of practical r/c submarine building/operation experience behind you.

Please, FAA, share the wealth. Be my teacher. Good boy.


David Merriman lll

[JIMJAM]

Oh boy MERRIMAN is here! Just kiddin..... Good to see some S.C. guys with some real underwater time here. For a while I was begginning to wonder if any of you would wander into here. By the way Dave, got a surprise in the mail the other day, some brand new brass pushrods. I had totally forgotten about them being as my boats been dry docked for a year due to lack of water. Anyways, Thanks and good to have you aboard. Jim Franklin.....

[JIMJAM]

When it all comes together...

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Originally posted by cadman 2
EJK I tried to access the web site you had listed and all I got was "page not found" Also I have searched Google and I didn't have any luck on WTC's. I have some knowledge on shaft seals being a retired design engineer of turbine engines but I will keep trying. Thanks any way

The link works best if you start at the "WooHoo!!".

http://www.rc-submarines.com/index.htm

Enjoy:cool:

[JIMJAM]

Ask the crew why subs are so expensive. In my 20 years of r/c running cars,trucks,boats,planes and helis, Ive learned what can go wrong. EVERYTHING. Combine gravity,water and electronics and you have all the makings of trouble. I fly some pretty pricey helis and know I can go from having a perfectly flying, tuned machine into a pile of parts in the blink of an eye. But bottom line is that I can at least salvage something a SEE the heli or whats left. With a sub, everytime it goes under, it might be the last time you see it unless you run in a pool. I have years into this U-BOAT and although completed over a year and 1/2 ago, Im still constantly tinkering with it. Cut corners as you dare but the Water Tight Container is the single most critical part of the sub. If it floods, the hundreds of $$$ in electronics may be ruined, but you may lose the entire sub.

[BrittB]

"You too, FAA."

"And, FAA: I'm sure you can teach me a lot of things -- what with all those minutes of practical r/c submarine building/operation experience behind you."

"Please, FAA, share the wealth. Be my teacher. Good boy."


Oh David, your such the kidder.;)

BrittB

[KOEZE]

EJK I tried to access the web site you had listed and all I got was "page not found" Also I have searched Google and I didn't have any luck on WTC's. I have some knowledge on shaft seals being a retired design engineer of turbine engines but I will keep trying. Thanks any way

Sorry, had the URL and URL description the wrong way around.
It works now. homebrew WTC (http://www.rc-submarines.com/id60.htm)

And the Whohoo adress mentioned above also works.

EJK

[Merriman]

Originally posted by JIMJAM
Oh boy MERRIMAN is here! Just kiddin..... Good to see some S.C. guys with some real underwater time here. For a while I was begginning to wonder if any of you would wander into here. By the way Dave, got a surprise in the mail the other day, some brand new brass pushrods. I had totally forgotten about them being as my boats been dry docked for a year due to lack of water. Anyways, Thanks and good to have you aboard. Jim Franklin.....

hey, Jim,

I'm no longer a SubCommittee member -- they won't give me a free hand to express myself, so I left.

Sorry about the tardy delivery of the push-rods. I promise to be more prompt in the future.

We going to see you this SubRegatta?

David,

[JIMJAM]

I might make it to one this year but they are all just a little to far. Driving with a 7 foot u-boat in my Camero is a real challenge. It goes from the very rear of the car,betreen my seats and the bow is pressed against my car radio. Im just hoping to get to run it this summer. The only place I know well and has good visabilty is dry. The gov lowered the lake to do dam reinforcment and the cove is bone dry.

[Merriman]

Originally posted by JIMJAM
I might make it to one this year but they are all just a little to far. Driving with a 7 foot u-boat in my Camero is a real challenge. It goes from the very rear of the car,betreen my seats and the bow is pressed against my car radio. Im just hoping to get to run it this summer. The only place I know well and has good visabilty is dry. The gov lowered the lake to do dam reinforcment and the cove is bone dry.


Jim,

They drained the tub on ya! Damn, I hate it when that happens!

Bring it along on a plane as carryon. No excuses!

Oh ... get the new SubCommittee SubRegatta video (now in DVD format) from Ray Mason. Real good stuff, a compilation of the 2002 and 2003 shows as well as two killer surprise shorts.

David,

[cadman 2]

Dave I have had your web site on my favorites list for about 6 months and always learned something from it every time I go there. Now a question, when is your book "R/C Submarining" going to be available?

[Merriman]

Originally posted by cadman 2
Dave I have had your web site on my favorites list for about 6 months and always learned something from it every time I go there. Now a question, when is your book "R/C Submarining" going to be available?


Cadman,

Thanks for asking. Well, after many years of contributing to other author's books, I've set about the task of writing my own book about the craft of r/c model submarine building and operation.

However, don't look for it anytime soon as I will likely have to self publish the thing -- unlikely I will find a publisher willing to let me tell the tale in my own words.

But, keep the faith, it's in the works and should be, at the very least, a fun read.

In the meantime you will have to settle for my current line of videos and the up and coming DVD's that will accompany each and every ThorDesigns kit.

David,

p.s.
Oh, forgot: I have a 7PM EST chat off my site every Saturday night. Stop by and have your say. www.vabiz.com/d&e Then all you do is follow the clicks to 'r/c sub chat' and your in.

[reaper]

FAA-Why did you purchase several subs in a 29 day period,& finally realize the price is too high???,I dont understand.....:confused:

[BrittB]

David,
When you issue your new book, I want a first edition auto'ed copy. I'll even let you write what your mood dictates at that time as long as you finish it with signing, "Yours Truely, that wackey Ex- diver and Squid and sometimes model builder, David Merriman."
Maybe after reading your book, I'll learn how to build one and, why these dam* models cost so much.:D

BrittB

[BrittB]

Originally posted by reaper
FAA-Why did you purchase several subs in a 29 day period,& finally realize the price is too high???,I dont understand.....:confused:

Ebay impluse buying would be my guess.

BrittB:eek:

[FAA]

Sorry for the delay in responding hear boys, but I was on a bussiness trip. I see you made yourselves at home ..

Meriman

Your a funny guy :)
I never remember offering lessons, but if you feel you need them I will more than happy to schedule you in !
It will probably be quicker than your delivery times !!:D :D
Don't worry Dave,...I will be gentle. ;)

Reaper, BrittB

Actually the prices that I paid for the subs where very very low. Almost more than 70% discounts. Very good deals from several people in my area that bought these kits and sat on them for years.

The cost problem is more associated with commisioning these boats into service. Particularly the Ohio and Akula.

I don't mind spending the money on something I like, but costs are higher when compared to Helicopter, and aircraft models.

You folks all seem to think that the prices are fine.

Maybe they arre. I am not leaving the hobby because of it. I plan to attend the regatta this year and sail my subs and get to meet some of you "characters" here.

Maybe it takes a few years in the hobby to get "use to" the prices. ;)

Whatever the case, we will find out.

Nick

[Darrin H]

I know everyone is having fun on this post (including me). I think the true answer is....
1:Not enough people buying these things.
2: Generally when you buy a ship or sub, The darn thing will last forever. Helos/aircraft tend to disappear after a few seasons due to crashes etc.
3:Only a couple hundred (high end)sub operators in the U.S and maybe 30 sub hull manufacturers. Bad ratio when you want to sell 5-10 hulls a month.
5:local hobby shops have completely eliminated subs and scale ships from the inventory so the manufacturers have only one sales market.

I dont think the majority of sub/ wtc builders are trying to squeeze every penny out of us.

I honestly think they are just trying to recover some of the $ and time that they invested into the business. Fiberglass work is one of those things that cant be rushed or automated better than human hands. I know the fullsize boat industry still has 4 guys standing in a hull hand laminating like they did in the 1960's

DH

[Merriman]

FAA, you've taken the counterblows with good humor. I won't damn you for that. And I think the other posters have filled you in on the 'why' of the high cost of our gear.

DH, your recent post was the best presentation of the why-and-wherefore of the game.

OK, enough shots. Water's getting soft again. Time to dust off the boats and head to the lake for another seasons patrolling.

David Merriman lll

[ThorDesign]

zzz

[Merriman]

Originally posted by ThorDesign
Dave, my friend!

It is very nice to see you on line once more! Almost 2 years absent from the SC website. You and the life you bring to the site has been missed. New Alfa almost done and ready for your handiwork. This one is sharp!

Matt

Matt,

Can't wait! Fixture is dusted off, mounted and ready for some serious scribing. Got a very heavy package of photos from Wayne.

Lyle send an 'intermediate' of the SKATE so I could size my WTC-2.5 to insure a good fit -- no problem! Lovely boat. And room to make it a torpedo shooter too.

David,

[BrittB]

Did you ever get any more work done on your 4.0 WTC?

Britt

[Wufnu]

It seems to me that when anything is associated with R/C, the prices jump about 40%. I assume this is because 1: it's a smaller market than, say, video games and less competition 2: there are alot of "well-to-do" people in the hobby, and the vendors know it. I think boating items are so expensive for the same reasons (just the little plastic box to hold hydraulic fluid for an engines tilt and trim is like $70 for our engine).

[Gypo]

One of the main resons for the higher price is the size of the market ,to put in prosective the model boat market is 40 times smaller than the aircraft market .Hence small manufacters will have higher cost's as in not been able to buy in bulk to get the price down and will also be selling a smaller volume.So meaning a higher wholesale or retail price. :cool:
.

[Fendy]

If you shop around you can find great prices....for instance, the Robbe U-47 goes for about $500 and up, however after a few minutes of searching I found it for $375 from militaryhobbies.com. E-bay is a great source for saving some $$$$$$ too! I got the Accurate Armour Fin and fitting set for $40!!!!! Saved $110! To make a long story short, I got a $1400 set up for around $850. You do have to spend some time and energy to save some money, but I think you will agree that it is worth it. :)

[Fendy]

P.S. Militaryhobbies only charges $6.00 for shipping to the U.S! WOW, they are in Canada, U.S. distributors wanted $35 for shipping, so you save an additional $29, not too shabby.

[Ka'Leun]

Looking around on the net for a typhoon hull, we came across a Tunisian company who were offering one for under £200.....UK delivered!
This didnt last long as they then informed us that they were now under exclusive contract to 'Engel'.....who were certainly not going to charge anything like that as you can imagine!(£5-600)
Funny thing is, when you look at their site, they clearly state that all products are made in germany, and...."This Includes Hulls"!
Now....if they're not actually making them, how can they justify charging the same as the guys...like 'Thorr' etc who are?

Los! :eek:

[petn7]

maybe this discussion is dead, but i'll offer my opinions.

Of all the r/c vehicles i've dealt with (land, sea, and air) submarines are the epitome of r/c engineering and not surprisingly have some of the fewest people inovlved in it. if the following things were accomplished, r/c subs would be fairly priced and have a much broader market

1) everyone had a pool
2) kids ask: "how does a submarine work?" as often as they ask: "how does an airplane fly?"
3) all waterproof seals never leaked
4) military sub technology wasn't classified
5) the subs offered weren't so frickin big!
6) water actually AMPLIFIED radio signals
7) everyone knew how to swim
8) whenever the sub malfunctioned, NO MATTER WHAT, it always floated to the surface [imagine if r/c cars, planes, and helicopters ALWAYS got stuck in a tree whenever they broke down or screwed up?]
9) bodies of water water found in nature weren't so cloudy
10) the FCC allowed any r/c frequency to be used on any r/c vehicle. none of that surface/aircraft frequency nonsense.
11) people didn't mind getting wet

[Merriman]

[QUOTE=petn7]maybe this discussion is dead, but i'll offer my opinions.

Of all the r/c vehicles i've dealt with (land, sea, and air) submarines are the epitome of r/c engineering and not surprisingly have some of the fewest people inovlved in it. if the following things were accomplished, r/c subs would be fairly priced and have a much broader market...




Dear petn7,

Are you suggesting that today's products aimed at the r/c model submarine hobby market are currently unfairly priced?

By the way ...

What would you charge for your WTC-3.5 mod 2 equivalent, petn7? How much labor and materials cost do you invest in one of your WTC's? How much do your hull kits cost, petn7?

I ask these simple questions to determine just what your frame of reference is. Are you qualified to tell me how to price such products?

You do have a professional understanding and appreciation of the engineering and production processes, right?

'Fair' price, indeed! (Hint: whatever the market will permit is the 'fair' price of a good).

David D Merriman lll
D&E Miniatures

[AntoineL]

maybe this discussion is dead, but i'll offer my opinions.

Of all the r/c vehicles i've dealt with (land, sea, and air) submarines are the epitome of r/c engineering and not surprisingly have some of the fewest people inovlved in it. if the following things were accomplished, r/c subs would be fairly priced and have a much broader market

1) everyone had a pool
2) kids ask: "how does a submarine work?" as often as they ask: "how does an airplane fly?"
3) all waterproof seals never leaked
4) military sub technology wasn't classified
5) the subs offered weren't so frickin big!
6) water actually AMPLIFIED radio signals
7) everyone knew how to swim
8) whenever the sub malfunctioned, NO MATTER WHAT, it always floated to the surface [imagine if r/c cars, planes, and helicopters ALWAYS got stuck in a tree whenever they broke down or screwed up?]
9) bodies of water water found in nature weren't so cloudy
10) the FCC allowed any r/c frequency to be used on any r/c vehicle. none of that surface/aircraft frequency nonsense.
11) people didn't mind getting wet

Hello

May I comment your post ? :D

1) No need of a private pool, use your legs or your car. Its what I do.
2) I think you would have more people around you when youre running your sub than your plane. the interest is growing.
3) Good seals DO NOT leak. If a good seal leaks it is certainly due to a mistake of the builder
4) The military thing has no relation with the Rc sub technology, its just a matter of accuracy
5) You have a LOT of different sizes/scales on the market today
6) Water is not the biggest problem for the radio signal. Using the right capacitors and noise reductors are much more important (unless you run your sub in salt waters)
7) Swimming to recover a sub can be dangerous even for a good swimmer.
8) There are a lot of different "subsafe" devices. An accident is always possible (but I should say : an accident will always happen ! :D)
9) There are some very nice mountain lakes around ;)
10) "The FCC giveth. The FCC can taketh away!" :D (am I right Mr Merriman ?) :D
11) People are not CATS ! :cool:

Just for fun...

Antoine.

[KOEZE]

Well, call me stupid.

1) everyone had a pool
What does this have to do with the price of model submarines?

2) kids ask: "how does a submarine work?" as often as they ask: "how does an airplane fly?"
What does this have to do with the price of model submarines?

3) all waterproof seals never leaked
What does this have to do with the price of model submarines?

4) military sub technology wasn't classified
Okay readily available information reduces research needed.

5) the subs offered weren't so frickin big!
The bigger the better. Look at this baby Type XII (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=9160&item=3728857675&rd=1)

6) water actually AMPLIFIED radio signals
What does this have to do with the price of model submarines?

7) everyone knew how to swim
What does this have to do with the price of model submarines?

8) whenever the sub malfunctioned, NO MATTER WHAT, it always floated to the surface [imagine if r/c cars, planes, and helicopters ALWAYS got stuck in a tree whenever they broke down or screwed up?]
What does this have to do with the price of model submarines?
This actually reduces the price of model submarines. If you loose a sub you'll have to buy a new one :D

9) bodies of water water found in nature weren't so cloudy
What does this have to do with the price of model submarines?

10) the FCC allowed any r/c frequency to be used on any r/c vehicle. none of that surface/aircraft frequency nonsense.
Irritating but what does this have to do with the price of model submarines?

11) people didn't mind getting wet
What does this have to do with the price of model submarines?

I really do not see what the problem is. I would like to fly a twin turbine scale jet model (F14 Tomcat) but simply cannot afford it. I don't complain about it do I. If I want to take up a hobby like that I may have to sell my wife ;)
I don't go to a Ferrari forum and ask why they are expensive do I. If you want something really bad, save money for it. It'll double the fun because you can look forward to it for a long time. If the price is too high, drool for a while and move on.
Like any hobby you can make it as expencive as you want. Buy a Robbe Type VII and build yourself a nice out of the box dynamic diver for not too much money.

EJK

PS.:
This rant was not intended just for you petn7 but for all the people that keep bitchin about the prices.

[petn7]

hahaha, my post was borderline cyincal, but it's all good.

first of all, in response to Merriman, when i said "fair" i meant bascially a price that made subs available to anyone. i mean, let's say you needed open heart surgery, but didn't have a 1/4 million dollars. wouldn't the "fair" price of the surgery be a price that you could afford? (whatever that price might be). so with subs, a "fair" price would be the price of a sub that was mass produced and could be made on the same scale a Ford Taurus is made...bascially the same product, but mass produced. honestly, i do not think that your products are overly priced considering that market you sell to, they R&D needed to develop the subs, the amount of liquid capital you have at your disposal, and your amount of cash flows. Merriman, i'm curious. let's say it takes you 3 years and $20,000 to develop a hull (R&D), then to actually manufacture each hull it takes 5 hours and $50 worth of parts and equipment (making up these numbers). now let's say you were able to sell 100 hulls a year...yeah $400 a hull would be a more than fair price. i have no problem with you charging the price you need to, to make back your out-of-pocket cost. but let's take a different situation. let's say everything else was the same, except you had an extra $5 million just sitting around AND you were able to sell 10,000 hulls per year. obviously you could charge less per hull. it's a shame that this second scenario isn't reality here. and this second scenario is what i was referring to as each sub being sold at a "fair" price. maybe a better choice of words would have been an ideal price. seriously, i respect your work and others like matt and hope to learn your craft one day... :)

AntoineL:

1) my legs can carry me to my car? see, the sky and is available to anyone...a body of water isn't. yes, some people have to drive to flying fields just like some people drive to pools, but it's not the same thing. what about r/c cars? everyone has a floor and many more people have a back yard and driveway compared to the number of people with swimming pools (w/o being charged a fee) or a lake/pond. see what i'm getting at? it's alot easier to run your r/c truck then it is an r/c sub assuming it take a 10 min dive to the nearest body of water.
2) you're right, interest is growing. i got into the r/c hobby when electric powered vehicles were looked down upon...and look at us now! :)
3) mistake of the builder? when you make a mistake on a r/c car, it does not sink. it just stops moving or hits a tree, then stops.
4) accuracy? exactly. try making an ACCURATE los angeles class propeller considering how it's one of that sub's more closley guarded secrets. now try making an accurate F-16 jet. alot easier.
5) different scales? are you kidding? i want Matt or Merriman's quality hulls on subs that are no bigger than 24" don't see many options for me. I KNOW the technology exists. but it's only a matter of time before smaller scale subs come around.
6) are you telling me you're ok with an r/c plane, car, or helicopter getting ONLY 30 ft of range? wouldn't it be nice if you have more radio range on your sub? and i'm not just talking about the radio. also talking about wireless cameras. it would be nice if it were as easy to put a camera on a sub as it was a model airplane.
7) almost all people in the r/c hobby knows how to walk, right? easier to retrieve you'r crashed airplane or heli. if you can't swim, you can't go down into the pool or lake to retreive you sub yourself...hence fewer people are in the r/c sub market.
8) when accidents happen with r/c planes, helis, and cars it's ALOT easier to get your model back, although granted it's often destroyed and with helis...a crash can be VERY dangerous.
9) and what if you don't live near a mountain lake?
10) true, but if i already invested $400 in a computer radio for my heli and have to shell out MORE money to to use that radio on my sub...added cost to getting into r/c subs, but this applies when moving from planes to cars too...
11) yeah, but if i can avoid getting dirty, i'll avoid it. call me a pretty boy or w/e :D

KOEZE:
1) if eveyone had a pool (or easy access to a body of water), more people might buy subs, don't you agree? at least it couldn't hurt, right? imagine if you had no access to a flying field. might keep you from getting that r/c plane with a 4 ft wingspan
2) more kids are interested in planes than subs. hence more demand for planes than subs
3) if seals never leaked, harder to lose your sub. if your seals leak, your only hope in an emergency blow. if your plane or car leaks you just run out of gas. so your car stops moving and your plane can glide back to earth
4) try making an accurate seawolf sub propulsor...yeah didn't think so. when something is classified, there's only so much you can do. and let's say you could build a 100% accurate seawolf class propulsor. the commmon person wouldn't know the difference. but on the other hand you build a very accurate r/c car...alot more people are bound to see it's accuracy.
5) bigger the better? then why has the micro heli market grown much? i remember when there were only 2 model helis...now there are like 10. what about the popularity with those mini "bit-o-charger" r/c cars?
6) less range with a sub obviously doesn't encourage people to start the hobby. your right, may not make a difference at all, but couldn't hurt if radio signals weren't impeded by water, right?
7) let me put it this way. make an r/c product that can be played with people who can swim and people who can't swim. or make an r/c product that can be played with by only people that can swim. like i've said before, it would help if people could swim, right? and i'm also referring to people who have a phobia of water. not many people have phobias of the ground or sky, right?
8) why would i get into a hobby where all i wanted to do was drive/fly my model and whenever that model screwed up, there was a decent chance it was gone? since not everyone likes to go home with only their radio, r/c subs could turn off a few people.
9) whenever i wanted a sub when i was little, my dad said "no, i won't buy you one and no, you can't spend you're own money. let's say you get your subs and drive it in the water. how are you going to see it?"
10) see my response to antoinel
11) i'm sure more people mind getting wet than mind going outside.

[Merriman]

hahaha, my post was borderline cyincal, but it's all good.

first of all, in response to Merriman, when i said "fair" i meant bascially a price that made subs available to anyone. i mean, let's say you needed open heart surgery, but didn't have a 1/4 million dollars. wouldn't the "fair" price of the surgery be a price that you could afford? (whatever that price might be)...


Petn7,

Not everyone deserves an r/c submarine -- they don't have the money/smarts to purchase and operate one.

You presuppose that everyone must have access to medical treatment (Hillary ... is that you?!) no matter their ability to pay (affordable? If you can't pay the quarter million then you don't get the open heart surgery!).

I'm sick and tired of guy's like you insisting that guy's like me pay for your basic needs out of my pocket -- it's my money, Damit! Leave it alone. You failed to secure a job that provides the insurance/coverage required to get you comfortably through life; you failed to make enough money to cover such expenses out of pocket? Then just too frig'n bad!

(At this point you piously intone that you pray to God that I never suffer some horrible, expensive situation -- the default position of socialists who love to take from the productive ... at Federal gunpoint ... and distribute that wealth to the unproductive).

I'm a capitalist and a bit of a social Darwinist. If you can't afford something, petn7, you should not get it! Period. If you can't afford that medicine or surgery, too bad. You know someone that needs such surgery and you have the wealth: Please, feel free to stroke the Doctor's a check. Good for you! But stay the hell out of my pockets!

I don't produce product for fun or to break even, or to please you. I produce product and provide service for profit! As much profit as I can get. And people pay, petn7. My price. Not your 'fair' price (a price structured to make my product available to everyone).

You want to produce the ultimate VoksSub, petn7? Go ahead. God speed. Best of luck. All my best wishes to you. Get to it!

But, as things stand today, I got something you want. You want it bad enough you pay my price. Or you do without. Simple.

And take your 'what if' production/marketing/pricing examples elsewhere. I don't take instruction from the class. I give instruction.

Know your place.

David,

[petn7]

ok, bad example. don't wanna get into that argument. but jesus christ, i think you took my post completely the wrong way. :( i wasn't giving instruction or telling you or anyone else how you should do things. just saying my view of how r/c submarines is inherently a much smaller market than other r/c hobbies and therefore the price charged for r/c sub technology was understandable.

[Darrin H]

Wow. Is this post still going on? I allready voiced my opinions somewhere in the first 12 chapters but it seems to be the same guys complaining about the same issues. Supply and demand is the final answer. There are not enough people buying these subs to get the cost down to production pricing. Subs are more complicated than most modelers think. If you cant pay the price, stay out of the hobby or do what I did at age 20. Learn how to build them yourselves. After 10 years, I have scratchbuilt 7 subs and a few surface runners. Now I am a professional model maker for one of the largest auto manufacturers in the world. (You should see the things I build on lunch hour) Dave Merriman, I was one of the early guys to pre order one of your skipjacks. I had to recall my payment and you gladly refunded My money. I will never forget how cool you were to me and all of the times you talked to me over the phone. (My wife still remembers the phone bill though.) Keep up the good work Dave. check out my Delfin and deepflight 1 in the other posts.

Darrin Hataway

[Ron Olson]

For those of you that have never tried to produce a kit of any kind, you'd be in for a big surprise! I was. I thought myself, "How hard can it be" and "Why am I paying over $130.00 for a POS that probably cost $30.00 to make?" You really can't grasp it until you've tried it. I'm trying to get a little .12 powered R/C outrigger hydro to market. R&D testing up the Wazoo, reworking little things including an owners manual, getting things right so that I don't get a bad reputation for selling junk, CAD work, Laser programming, hassles getting the right State and Federal licenses (a real joy in itself), locating just the right parts and accessories and the best wood for the kits, ad infintum. I have to give the designer and Cad programmer some kind of reimbursement for their time and trouble, pay the Laser cutter, buy, package and ship the goods when done. If you tried this you'd really see the light people. I did and am wondering why. It's more for the love of the Hobby than anything else.

[petn7]

It's more for the love of the Hobby than anything else.

that's what i used to think

[Merriman]

... Dave Merriman, I was one of the early guys to pre order one of your skipjacks. I had to recall my payment and you gladly refunded My money. I will never forget how cool you were to me and all of the times you talked to me over the phone. (My wife still remembers the phone bill though.) Keep up the good work Dave. check out my Delfin and deepflight 1 in the other posts.

Darrin Hataway



Good looking work, Darrin.

And now you're a pro. Way to go! Love those X-tails.

David,

[reaper]

I am not a manufacturer of subs by any means,but I have had a few cracks at scratchbuilding,Petn7 have you ever tried scratchbuilding???,Try to scratchbuild a sub that you like & see how much it costs & time & effort spent into it,Try to dupicate markings & hull scribing.I think that folks that owned a swimming pool would be more interested in swimming than buying a R/C submarine.I think master sub builders are superb people & if they were not doing what they are doing we would not be able to own such beautiful examples of subs.I feel that submarine products that are readily available,are very reasonably priced.If you cant afford it then dont buy it,If you feel its too expensive then dont buy it!,Simple as that.

[petn7]

reaper,

i never said r/c subs were overpriced considering the r/c sub market. what i said was that r/c subs could be ALOT cheaper if there was the same interest for r/c subs as there is for r/c cars and planes. i think Matt Thor said something similar.

[MWatts972810]

I don't own a sub R/C sub yet but I will soon enough. And I don't manufacturer Submarine hulls. But the manufacturers like Merriman and Matt
that have posted remarks on this tread have very valid points. Demand is down from where it needs to be. For everyone to get what they want, they will simply have to wait for the hobby to grow. I was talking to a coworker about my intension of getting into this hobby and he thought I was crazy. He is into RC cars, & Trucks and It seemed that his negitive thoughts were mostly based on the potential for model loss. The technology level required to offer the nessesary security that would make the average person more comfortable with the investment has only recently started to appear. If the market is growing that is a good sign. And if every person with a model turned one other person onto the hobby then things will gradually begin to change.
Petn7: You wanna make a differance? You seem like you do. But argueeing isn't the path that is going to change things. The hobby needs more hobbist. I have an Idea "make an informercial?"

I know this is your crazy out of hand thread but I just wanted to add my two cents.

Thank You,
Mathew

[petn7]

argue? i never wanted to argue. my first post was a border line joke basically expressing the fact that by going into r/c submarines certain conditions were required that weren't reqired of other r/c hobbies and that that market was inherently smaller due to some very basic reasons. unfortunetly it was taken COMPLETELY the wrong way and i've just been trying to clear up this misunderstanding ever since

[AntoineL]

hey Guys, why not closing this thread ?
Petn7 was joking for sure, as my reply was a joke too.
his ideal point of view was too beautiful to be serious, wasnt it Petn7 ?

The perfection does not exist, we all know that :D

Com'on guys, lets build our models, whatever they are, cars, planes, subs, boats......hum.....sry targets, etc... !

Antoine

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Lighten up guys, it was a joke, it was a joke,...At least tounge in cheek, I read it that way. Because pools are way to expensive. How come swimming pools are so expensive? :p

And every city should build this type of facility for their local boat club, so that there is a place to sell and sail mass quantites of model submarines.

http://www.emyc.org/directions.asp
The Centennial Lakes area in Edina, Minnesota serves as the home port for the EMYC and its on-water activities. This 1/4 mile long man-made lake winds its way through a 20 million dollar shopping and residential complex. The lake area is fully landscaped and is meticulously maintained by the City of Edina. It has become a favorite place for many to stroll, relax, and enjoy the outdoors. Food and shopping are available as well.
http://www.emyc.org/articles/article_event.asp?id=20


And this must be your doing eeh Antoine?

We didn't intend to build a submarine, but we will provide targets given equal opportunity. ;)

Umi

[KOEZE]

I agree with you guy's
Maybe a moderator can put a lock on this thread.
Petn7 must have been joking. It's just that this thread that has so many accusations (or whatever the right spelling is) directed againt the very people that make it easier for beginners to start in this wonderfull hobby that probably tripped a couple of the harsher responses by some (including me).

Sure it would be good to be able to buy a perfect scale, durable, customizable, accurate, function loaded submarine for a low price. But what is the fun of standing at a pond with 15 or 20 other guys every week that also drive a sub. I for one chose this type of modelling because there is something mystical about it.

EJK

[Nemo]

I, for one, love being the only guy at the lake with an RC sub. It produces a lot of interest, and hardly anyone has seen a working sub model before.

[petn7]

thanks for understanding

[MWatts972810]

Oh well perhaps I misinterpreted things I apoligize. But it was fun to read, all five pages of it. And there are many very good points made. About a subject being seen from many different prespectives. I think it should be left up a mewbie like my self can really be given allot of important detail to think about. Rereading my own post from last night I relize even my own post could be interpreted the wrong way. I was trying to make sombody laugh while making a point as well. But Petn7 I hope you didn't think I was trying to make some Slam towards you. but reading the thread make some very interesting points.
For example Model loss reflects on the hobby in two ways. The threat of model loss could deter people from getting into the hobby inhibiting sales. But then it also helps the market servive being that modelers will recreate there masterpieces from time to time.

Note:
Why are swimming pools are so expensive?
Ha ha ha becuase I am a concrete finisher and plaster and I want to be rich like Scrouge!I want to have a super model girl freind--- No wait I want five super model girlfriends. And a penthouse where I can stand on my ballcony and watch the little swimming pool needing pesants play out there pathetic little lives while I try to spit on them. J/k I've never even plastered a pool it's differnet.

Thank you
Mathew

[petn7]

For example Model loss reflects on the hobby in two ways. The threat of model loss could deter people from getting into the hobby inhibiting sales. But then it also helps the market servive being that modelers will recreate there masterpieces from time to time.
Mathew

good point. never thought of that

[MWatts972810]

The point I was trying to make is that everyone who has posted in the thread is right on some degree. Those are both points that others in this thread have made a point of and they are both right. There is other examples but I'm to tired to find them for now.

But basically everyone is right is the point I was trying to make.

Mathew

[shaneperch]

[QUOTE=FAA]Why is it that when it comes to subs, everything is so much more expensive than other areas of the hobby ?

Well I agree this stuff is really really rediculas. I have seen some real nice ducted fan jets that are awesome for less than what these people want for their submarines. Even Nikko wants almost 200 for their pool toy. while those RC jets I have seen go for 900 bucks with EVERYTHING!!!!!!! the RC submarine page is trying to almost at first make you accept that youre gonna get hosed. I am going to build myself one from PVC pipe. and for my first Submarine I don't care what it looks like as far as looking like a Sea Wolf or Nautilus or Alvin. But I want it to look like a professional experimental "drone" that the military would accept. Here is a link that will show you how to build a sewer pipe sub. http://web.ticino.com/Submarine/

Now I am noticing that RC cars and Electric helis are getting real cheap. I mean not what I would call a shluter or a hirrobo size 60. But for the first time someone can get an RC heli to flt indoors for around 200 bucks,, where ten years ago with everything a basic car "Tamiya" for 350 and a Team Associated truck 400. now I have seen the Asian stuff that is Nitro 10th scale 250 with everything but the radio!!!! things are getting cheaper. I think the best thing to do is start building Subs for sale and make them cheaper than everyone else and outsource to china or whathave you.

[KOEZE]

I think the best thing to do is start building Subs for sale and make them cheaper than everyone else and outsource to china or whathave you.


Did you at least bother to read this post or did you see a title and thought "Hey, I agree with that.". If you know the very least bit about submarines you'll know that a couple of the best Model Submariners took part in this discussion. They have countered all the bull**** you just said.

If you can't pay for it it's your problem. I'd like to drive a Ferrari too, but can't seem to find funds for it, do you hear me bitching about it.

If you think you can do a better / cheaper job, you're welcome but don't start whining about the price or do the same in the turbine driven forums as well.


EJK

[shaneperch]

Did you at least bother to read this post or did you see a title and thought "Hey, I agree with that.". If you know the very least bit about submarines you'll know that a couple of the best Model Submariners took part in this discussion. They have countered all the bull**** you just said.

If you can't pay for it it's your problem. I'd like to drive a Ferrari too, but can't seem to find funds for it, do you hear me bitching about it.

If you think you can do a better / cheaper job, you're welcome but don't start whining about the price or do the same in the turbine driven forums as well.


EJK


GET BENT

[FAA]

This thread started out as a "dialog".

Obviously some of you have not been able to "shed" your childhood emotinal reactions and have a discusion. Maybe because some of you are just that. Children.

People, have and will disagree on ANY topic at ANY time. Learn to engage in dialog and RESPECT each other.

So since I started this thread, I ask you to be CIVILIZED in your discussions.

Nick

[shaneperch]

[QUOTE=FAA]This thread started out as a "dialog".

Obviously some of you have not been able to "shed" your childhood emotinal reactions and have a discusion. Maybe because some of you are just that. Children.

I was civalized I thought, maybe I wasn't . I really wanted to state about the PVC way to go,, I just want something to submerge and to be controllable and come up again, an ROV would have been cool something anything. Then I will get a decent model. Then I got attacked. However I hope to get the Sub underway this week got my PVC fitings and learned a way to seal the motor shafts and the ballast tanks figured out. Then to agree about the prices not really with the hand builders, But the store bought stuff like the graupner and the like.. it looks like a good deal 207.00 but then not only do you need a motor you need the drive. so you are looking at 300 something,, then the radio then the batteries. So if that blow moulded machine built unit went for a 107.00 not including anything but the hull, instead then I wouldn't have an issue. the hand built stuff is worth it. a Banjo hand built is 4500.00 one from Korea is 780.00 so i understand the cost of the builders here on the forum, I just feel that for people getting into it would be nice for the first time that a graupner class sub would be cheaper than what it is..

[reaper]

Shaneperch,My first r/c sub was the graupner shark,I ended up spending $300 CAD for the boat,$120 for the drive unit,$150 for tx,rx,$55 for ESC,$,$30 for the battery,$80 for servos,& i had to build it.$735 later I had a first Boat.I know your probably laughing but I really wanted it & to be able to learn how "things" work,Its a fast aerobatic dynamic diver...I love it & still run it today(well im doing some "drydock" maintenence to it now).After running it the first time I didnt care about the cost of it,As far as I am concerned it has payed itself over & over...I think even some Fast formed hulls are worth the bucks....Just my CDN 2 cents....
Cheers!.

[Carcharadon]

When I started my submarine project I began to realize that RC submarines are expensive. In addition with the watertight chamber, with all those servos, rotating shaft, and seals, I thought unduly complex. I set out to develop a system that was simple and inexpensive. I have achieved that in two different versions of model submarine, one being 7 ft.-long and the other 5 ft. although I call it a 4 ft. because the hull is 4 ft. I will admit that I spent a lot of money perfecting the system. The 4 ft. model seen in the video has no moving parts, same with the 7 ft. The 7 ft. was actually developed first but because it's a large sub I wanted to see if the same system could work in a smaller model. And that is how the 4 ft. came about. Cost of materials for the 4 ft. is about $6 -- $700, for everything. This does not include my labor and R&D Time to perfect this. It is still a prototype. I've replaced the front end twice and the rear end three times. But I think the video; especially the pool video shows it was well worth the effort.

http://home.comcast.net/~kdawling85/nautilus.htm

I have no quibble with the vendors, and admire their work as well as some other enthusiasts who post here.

[Nemo]

I've found that, to a certain extent, R/C Submariners are a bit (dare I say it) elitist. I wormed my way into the fold a few years ago, and now even I find myself taking that attitude now and then!

When I first started, my basic questions on the message boards were taken as being annoying by some, and I even had a post asking me to stop asking such basic questions and buy the R/C submarine publications before I came back.

I perservered, and I've learned a lot since those days.

Are R/C subbers elitist? Maybe, but in a lot of ways we're talking about the creme de la creme of the boating crowd. The technical knowhow that is required to bring one of these projects into fruition is typically far beyond that needed for a target, er... surface runner. Maybe the attitude is well-deserved.

The cost of the hobby only adds to the problem, as now you not only need to be technically gifted, but have a well-endowed wallet as well.

I'm not bitchin' at all. In fact, I'm honored to be considered a "sub-human". I applaud companies like Dumas that make affordable toys that begin to approach the sophistication of the true, static-diving subs. Because of their products, more people become interested in this hobby, and that is a good thing. Taking it one step further, companies like Small World Models and Subtech offer cheap, vac-formed kits with ballast systems that are a great intermediary between the pool toys and the full-blown, museum-quality, epoxy kits.

Subs are expensive? You bet.

Are they worth every penny? Yup.

Don't like it? Don't get one.

[Sub culture]

Hmm, I've read this thread with some interest, and indeed some amazement.

How anyone can come on here and have the cheek to lambast vendors for providing so called overpriced goods is totally beyond my comprehension!

As the vendors say- you don't have to buy it! Noone is holding a gun to your head.

If it's too expensive, get off your backsides and build your own.

I'm sure that if the Chinese saw a ready market for a cheap range of submarine kits, they'd be filling it.

Robbe and Dumas have dealt with the low end of the market, and have had some success. They're are also some lesser known kits out there, like the HFM Deep Dive VI and Delphin, which are relatively low priced but despite this are very capable performers

The fact is this hobby is tiny, but with a very keen and demanding hardcore who wish to see Rolls Royce products at a reasonable, if not cut price.

If I have a criticism of vendors, it would be the lack of non military subjects modelled. I'd like to see a few more submersible type craft available (along the lines of Alvin) and/or sci-fi boats although I can understand copyright problems with the latter.

BTW, it's quite possible to build a good working model sub for about the same cost as a small model car/buggy. To achieve this requires a bit of ingenuity and craft, but then that is half the fun.

Submarines are not for beginners, they require skill to build, maintain and run.

However, skills can be learnt, and I don't think building a working model submarine is beyond anyone who might consider themselves to be a decent model maker.

Information on these things is everywhere, there is no 'black art'. A few years ago, before the internet, I would have agreed that information was difficult to come by. That is no longer the case.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/pyerok/home_EV.htm

http://www.rc-submarines.com/r_c_subs.htm

http://www.subconcepts.com/subguide.html

Also, if you can get hold of a copy, Norbert Bruggens 'Model Submarine technology' book is an invaluable reference for the scratchbuilder.

Andy

[himszy]

I dont think it is expensive.

im building a 1.7m sub with working r/c torpedo and nearly everything is sratch built. And trust me that is the way forward. Build your own!!

Michael

[OhioMike]

Reminds me of the Helicopter pilots we used to bitch about at the local RC flying club. All "EGO' and a big wallet! Lucky for us skimmer pukes, these sub guys always seem to be tinkering or just plain trying to get their sub to work instead of running, allowing us another free channel!!! LOL!!! Sorry Bob, just kidding!

[EMSPAUL]

Guy Stop And Smell The Roses . Here You Bicker About A Man S Prices. Are Any Of You Marryed If Yes Follow Along Dimond Ring For 10gs+ Nice Home 350 To 450 Tho Then Comes The Kids If Your Like Me I Have 3 . We Work Hard To Provide A Good Home For Our Familys .if We Spend A Little On Are Selfs Is It Not Worth It Stop Bickering Like A Bunch Of Old Laides If The Work Man Ship Is Of Great Quality Pay The Man For His Service

[Nemo]

Reminds me of the Helicopter pilots we used to bitch about at the local RC flying club. All "EGO' and a big wallet! Lucky for us skimmer pukes, these sub guys always seem to be tinkering or just plain trying to get their sub to work instead of running, allowing us another free channel!!! LOL!!! Sorry Bob, just kidding!

No, no... you're probably right for the most part. Subs require a lot of maintenance and work to keep them in fighting trim, just like the real ones. I find that if you simply keep to a schedule of maintenance and inspection, you'll have no issues with a sub.

There are a lot of people, however, who've built half-assed-kinda-working subs and they are like you said.... perpetually tinkering and hoping that nothing happens to them while underwater.

[patmat2350]

IT'S ALL ABOUT VOLUME.
The wingy-thing guys are out there in droves for some reason, which means suppliers tool up factories in China to bring them cheap parts. Not so for subs.
How big are planes? Look at the AMA's new headquarters:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/comp/newbuilding.jpg

Where is the Submarine Modelers' Association building?

PM

[Merriman]

...Where is the Submarine Modelers' Association building?

PM


PM,

Sure we do, damit! How dare you besmirch the sanctity and good name of this hallowed branch of the r/c vehicle hobby, sir!

The national headquarters for the Submarine Modeler's Association ... I'll have you know, sir ... is located at the south-end quarter of the portable auxiliary tool shed (downwind of the yet to be emptied port-a-potties), Mt Trashmore City Park, Virginia Beach, VA.

The Nerve!

I spit in the direction of AMA HQ!

David D Merriman lll
Keeper Of The Flame

[patmat2350]

:D
CAUTION: Check AMA windsock before spitting!
PM

[U812]

Ya. And the AMA sucks. They have a bug up their ass about electric airplanes too which I fly! They think all they are is small park flyers made of bits of wood and tissue and never show the good stuff.

As soon as I get that rag they call a magazine I start and fire with it. It's good for that.

Oh the humanity,

Steve

BTW. Here's one of my 7 pound, 100 mph + twin engine EDF electric planes. This is what they won't show you in their rag.

[Merriman]

... As soon as I get that rag they call a magazine I start and fire with it. It's good for that.

Oh the humanity,

Steve

BTW. Here's one of my 7 pound, 100 mph + twin engine EDF electric planes. This is what they won't show you in their rag.

... And they think I have a short fuse!?

David,

[U812]

Ha! about 48 inches long! LOL!!!

Steve

[MC4U]

why are things so expensive sheesh get a life, I have a quick to anger temper and this really gets me steamed David Merriman said it best
if you want to run with the big boys then you have to have to pay like the big boys
:eek: :mad:

[U812]

why are things so expensive sheesh get a life, I have a quick to anger temper and this really gets me steamed David Merriman said it best
do run with the big boys if you can't pay the bill

charles :mad:

LOL!!

Steve

[Chris Clark]

Thought I'd have a first look and see why the thread has 'attracted' so many postings. Bl%dy H*ll and cor blimey guv!!!
Easy boyz.

Err, I think I'll go and peruse a thread which doesn't need Valium to read it first!!!!

[U812]

Thought I'd have a first look and see why the thread has 'attracted' so many postings. Bl%dy H*ll and cor blimey guv!!!
Easy boyz.

Err, I think I'll go and peruse a thread which doesn't need Valium to read it first!!!!

LOL!! Chris. If they weren't expensive how much fun could it be?

Bob's your uncle.

Steve

[tdonily]

Thing I wonder. Why is it that I can get a sub running for less $ and with more technology in it than a model yacht of similar quality? FAA, maybe you can shed some light on this? :eek:

[MC4U]

what exactly is the cost of fun? :confused:
how can anyone put price on something that one enjoys,
the definition of fun-amusing: providing enjoyment; pleasantly entertaining
a RC model submarine 600.00 or more
the radio gear to get it runing 650.00
the joy of putting it all together priceless
:D :D

[tdonily]

what exactly is the cost of fun? :confused:
how can anyone put price on something that one enjoys,
the definition of fun-amusing: providing enjoyment; pleasantly entertaining
a RC model submarine 600.00 or more
the radio gear to get it runing 650.00
the joy of putting it all together priceless
:D :D
I couldn't agree more! It just takes me longer to acquire what I'd like :D And I'd have no problem spending the kind of money that is asked by the various manufacturers in this field. It doesn't matter the product, quality costs. How much are we willing to pay for a quality product. F/G aircraft don't have to suffer under the pressures that a sub has to endure.

TD

[U812]

Nik,

I know your there somewhere. But I have to tell you. The one thing that's missed in this thread is that you just sell more planes than subs.

I sold a lot of my jet kits to you guys. I don't think if it was a sub I would have sold quite as many. Far less. I have to a agree with Matt.

As hard as it may be to believe subs are a lot harder to make than jets or planes. I've been there the last year. I've learned a great deal.

I'm now making a 1/96 kit of a Washington class boomer. ABS so it will be less than a epoxy hull but not much as the work is intensive. Lots of scale parts. Merriman is making the appendages for it from silicone molds. And on and on.

It's all about supply and demand. Plain and simple.

Steve