Large model helicopter for European university project

[Grumblz]

Dear all,

My fellow-students and I are looking for a large model helicopter that can be converted into an autonomous aerial vehicle (AAV). We are looking for a
helicopter that has an empty weight of abt 8 kg and a payload of abt 12 kg, preferrably manufactured in Europe. Due to the current export restrictions
of the USA and the fact that we want to start as soon as possible, we would like to know if there are alternatives to the Bergen Industrial Twin,
which would otherwise be a perfect candidate for the job.

Thanx for any suggestions!

[david]

AUTONOMOUS? Hmm, is that different from Unmanned...the thought of an
autonomous helicopter seems a bit freaky.

What are you trying to do with it? Sounds interesting.

D

[Grumblz]

Hi David,

Our aim is to conduct research into various state-of-the-art control system strategies on a challenging vehicle: a helicopter.
We're looking at small-scale helicopters (~20 kg) because this allows us to fly under model airplane regulations which means that we donot need to
certify our control system for test flights. However, because we need to carry quite some payload, we cannot use the RC helicopters that are used for
training and competitions.
We are trying to pack it with sensors and a miniature computer so it can fly "hands-off". I consider RC helicopters also "unmanned" and therefore I
opted to use the term "autonomous" to make this distinction.

Cheers!

david wrote:

> AUTONOMOUS? Hmm, is that different from Unmanned...the thought of an
> autonomous helicopter seems a bit freaky.
>
> What are you trying to do with it? Sounds interesting.
>
> D
>
>

[Peter Christy]

Grumblz wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> My fellow-students and I are looking for a large model helicopter that can be
> converted into an autonomous aerial vehicle (AAV). We are looking for a
> helicopter that has an empty weight of abt 8 kg and a payload of abt 12 kg,
> preferrably manufactured in Europe. Due to the current export restrictions
> of the USA and the fact that we want to start as soon as possible, we would
> like to know if there are alternatives to the Bergen Industrial Twin,
> which would otherwise be a perfect candidate for the job.
>
> Thanx for any suggestions!

Biggest one I know of manufactured in Europe is the Robbe Nova-Cuattro
(www.robbe.com). The standard kit isn't huge, but it is strectchable! There
are several guys here in the UK flying turbine powered stretched versions.

--
Pete
christy@NOattglobalSPAM.net
(make the obvious amendments to reply!)

[Grumblz]

Dear Peter,

The idea is to use a COTS helicopter which requires minimal effort to make it fly. Looking at the specs at the website you provided, the standard kit
seems a little bit underweight and I therefore donot expect it to be able to carry the proposed payload.
But thanks for the suggestion!

Peter Christy wrote:

> Biggest one I know of manufactured in Europe is the Robbe Nova-Cuattro
> (www.robbe.com). The standard kit isn't huge, but it is strectchable! There
> are several guys here in the UK flying turbine powered stretched versions.

[Carl Farrington]

david wrote:
> AUTONOMOUS? Hmm, is that different from Unmanned...the thought of an
> autonomous helicopter seems a bit freaky.
>

I'd say so since all our models are 'Unmanned' but none I know of are
autonomous.

there's a sourceforge project for an autonomous thing. The basic idea is you
program in a waypoint and it makes it way there automatically.

[Mike]

>Subject: Re: Large model helicopter for European university project
>From: Grumblz nothing@nothing.net
>Date: 06/01/2004 14:38 GMT Standard Time
>Message-id: <btehc1$d2g$1@news.tudelft.nl>
>
>Dear Peter,
>
>The idea is to use a COTS helicopter which requires minimal effort to make it
>fly. Looking at the specs at the website you provided, the standard kit
>seems a little bit underweight and I therefore donot expect it to be able to
>carry the proposed payload.
>But thanks for the suggestion!
>
Sounds like you need to make contact with a German chap called Karl-Heinz
Plich, who manufactured and flew one of the largest (ie GIANT) helicopters I
have ever seen.....

He was at the 3D Masters this year, and although I have no idea how to contact
him, an organiser at the Masters may know.

I also remember a giant helicopter featured in a heli mag a few years ago,
which is used to spray small farmers fields in Japan.. that would have the
payload, but I'm not sure who makes it... Hirobo parts, but Toyota comes to
mind????.

[Hartmut Beyer]

Grumblz wrote:

> My fellow-students and I are looking for a large model helicopter
> that can be converted into an autonomous aerial vehicle (AAV). We are
> looking for a helicopter that has an empty weight of abt 8 kg and a
> payload of abt 12 kg, preferrably manufactured in Europe. Due to the
> current export restrictions of the USA and the fact that we want to
> start as soon as possible, we would like to know if there are
> alternatives to the Bergen Industrial Twin, which would otherwise be
> a perfect candidate for the job.


Hi,
check http://www.aero-tec-helicopter.de for their photo-helicopter. The web
info is in German, but it should be easy to check the technical details or
give them a call.

The payload isn't as high as you want it to be, but I expect a 12kg payload
at an 8kg heli for at least "risky".

Regards,
--
Hartmut Beyer
Seedamm-Industriedienst GmbH
Germany

[Tim]

Mike wrote:
>> Subject: Re: Large model helicopter for European university project
>> From: Grumblz nothing@nothing.net
>> Date: 06/01/2004 14:38 GMT Standard Time
>> Message-id: <btehc1$d2g$1@news.tudelft.nl>
>>
>> Dear Peter,
>>
>> The idea is to use a COTS helicopter which requires minimal effort
>> to make it fly. Looking at the specs at the website you provided,
>> the standard kit seems a little bit underweight and I therefore
>> donot expect it to be able to carry the proposed payload.
>> But thanks for the suggestion!
>>
> Sounds like you need to make contact with a German chap called
> Karl-Heinz Plich, who manufactured and flew one of the largest (ie
> GIANT) helicopters I have ever seen.....
>
> He was at the 3D Masters this year, and although I have no idea how
> to contact him, an organiser at the Masters may know.
>
> I also remember a giant helicopter featured in a heli mag a few years
> ago, which is used to spray small farmers fields in Japan.. that
> would have the payload, but I'm not sure who makes it... Hirobo
> parts, but Toyota comes to mind????.

Maybe this is more the size you're looking for...

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/eng/sky/index.html

They are used for agricultural operations and so should have no problem with
payload, I believe they are very expensive though!

Tim


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[Tim]

Tim wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>>> Subject: Re: Large model helicopter for European university project
>>> From: Grumblz nothing@nothing.net
>>> Date: 06/01/2004 14:38 GMT Standard Time
>>> Message-id: <btehc1$d2g$1@news.tudelft.nl>
>>>
>>> Dear Peter,
>>>
>>> The idea is to use a COTS helicopter which requires minimal effort
>>> to make it fly. Looking at the specs at the website you provided,
>>> the standard kit seems a little bit underweight and I therefore
>>> donot expect it to be able to carry the proposed payload.
>>> But thanks for the suggestion!
>>>
>> Sounds like you need to make contact with a German chap called
>> Karl-Heinz Plich, who manufactured and flew one of the largest (ie
>> GIANT) helicopters I have ever seen.....
>>
>> He was at the 3D Masters this year, and although I have no idea how
>> to contact him, an organiser at the Masters may know.
>>
>> I also remember a giant helicopter featured in a heli mag a few years
>> ago, which is used to spray small farmers fields in Japan.. that
>> would have the payload, but I'm not sure who makes it... Hirobo
>> parts, but Toyota comes to mind????.
>
> Maybe this is more the size you're looking for...
>
> http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/eng/sky/index.html
>
> They are used for agricultural operations and so should have no
> problem with payload, I believe they are very expensive though!
>
> Tim
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 02/01/2004

Here's an alternative...

http://www.bergenrc.com/IndustrialTwin.asp

Tim


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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Mike]

>> I also remember a giant helicopter featured in a heli mag a few years
>> ago, which is used to spray small farmers fields in Japan.. that
>> would have the payload, but I'm not sure who makes it... Hirobo
>> parts, but Toyota comes to mind????.
>
>Maybe this is more the size you're looking for...
>
>http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/eng/sky/index.html
>
>They are used for agricultural operations and so should have no problem with
>payload, I believe they are very expensive though!
>
>Tim
>
Yep, well done Tim, it wasn't Toyota, it was Yamaha!! I knew it ended in an
'a', lol.

That machine is awesome, and before turbines too...

[Melb RAPV]

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:30:18 +0100, Grumblz <nothing@nothing.net>
wrote:

>Dear all,
>
>My fellow-students and I are looking for a large model helicopter that can be converted into an autonomous aerial vehicle (AAV). We are looking for a
>helicopter that has an empty weight of abt 8 kg and a payload of abt 12 kg, preferrably manufactured in Europe. Due to the current export restrictions
> of the USA and the fact that we want to start as soon as possible, we would like to know if there are alternatives to the Bergen Industrial Twin,
>which would otherwise be a perfect candidate for the job.
>
>Thanx for any suggestions!

Why do you want a UAV ?
Do you have any need for it ?
Has anyone said to you they need you to make one ?

[Grumblz]

As I said in other reply, it is part of a university project that focusses on research into various state-of-the-art control system strategies on a
challenging vehicle. Up till now, most aerospace control has focussed on making airplanes easier to fly for humans and/or autonomous flying big
airplanes (autopilot), but we want to challenge ourselves with attempting to make something fly autonomously at all times. And we have chosen a model
helicopter because it is low-cost, unstable and able to fly alsmot anywhere (no need for a real airfield).
Hope this satisfies your curiosity.

Melb RAPV wrote:
> Why do you want a UAV ?
> Do you have any need for it ?
> Has anyone said to you they need you to make one ?

[david]

There was a chap a year or so ago in the magazines (RCM&E) who did what you
want. He used software to control the thing and then learnt to fly himself
by progressivley taking more control from the computer!

Try the editor, Graham Ashby, at RCM&E

D

"Grumblz" <nothing@nothing.net> wrote in message
news:btgi72$6es$1@news.tudelft.nl...
> As I said in other reply, it is part of a university project that focusses
on research into various state-of-the-art control system strategies on a
> challenging vehicle. Up till now, most aerospace control has focussed on
making airplanes easier to fly for humans and/or autonomous flying big
> airplanes (autopilot), but we want to challenge ourselves with attempting
to make something fly autonomously at all times. And we have chosen a model
> helicopter because it is low-cost, unstable and able to fly alsmot
anywhere (no need for a real airfield).
> Hope this satisfies your curiosity.
>
> Melb RAPV wrote:
> > Why do you want a UAV ?
> > Do you have any need for it ?
> > Has anyone said to you they need you to make one ?
>

[Melb RAPV]

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:04:57 +0100, Grumblz <nothing@nothing.net>
wrote:

>As I said in other reply, it is part of a university project that focusses on research into various state-of-the-art control system strategies on a
>challenging vehicle. Up till now, most aerospace control has focussed on making airplanes easier to fly for humans and/or autonomous flying big
>airplanes (autopilot), but we want to challenge ourselves with attempting to make something fly autonomously at all times. And we have chosen a model
>helicopter because it is low-cost, unstable and able to fly alsmot anywhere (no need for a real airfield).
>Hope this satisfies your curiosity.

It wasnt curiosity
i was seeking an answer to the questions.

The above seems to anser question 1

>> Why do you want a UAV ?

But doesnt answer these

>> Do you have any need for it ?
>> Has anyone said to you they need you to make one ?

These are questions I put to every UAV developer but they cant seem to
answer it.
The reason I ask is
Nessecity is the mother of invention
in the absence of nessecity and invvention is just a useless object.
As far as proof of concept the same concept has was proven many times
since the 70's and of all the many who have tried it and done it and
proven the concept
There are still only a handfull of UAV flying in real operations.

See the trend.

[Grumblz]

As a university, we are fortunate to be in the position that we can experiment and do research into areas that the industry cannot, dare not or
doesnot want to.
As I said before (and perhaps you overlooked this point) the development of the AAV itself is not our goal, the practical implementation of our
control design strategies is. And of course a lot of people around the world in our line of work (aerospace control) are designing controllers for
fighter jets and such, but they hardly ever get to test their ideas in real life, on a real aircraft.
Taking a COTS model helicopter and modifying it such that we can test our ideas on it, will definately not lead to a commercially viable AAV and that
is not surprising, because that is not our goal.
So the need for the UAV is the research itself and nothing else and therefore there is noone asking us to make one, we donot need such a request to
conduct research that we think is worthwhile.
I hope this answers your questions and if not, perhaps you should take a look at other universities that are also succesfully employing model aircraft
to demonstrate their capabilities in various terrains of aerospace technology especially control.

See that trend ;-)

Melb RAPV wrote:
> It wasnt curiosity
> i was seeking an answer to the questions.
> The above seems to anser question 1
>>>Why do you want a UAV ?
> But doesnt answer these
>>>Do you have any need for it ?
>>>Has anyone said to you they need you to make one ?
> These are questions I put to every UAV developer but they cant seem to
> answer it.
> The reason I ask is
> Nessecity is the mother of invention
> in the absence of nessecity and invvention is just a useless object.
> As far as proof of concept the same concept has was proven many times
> since the 70's and of all the many who have tried it and done it and
> proven the concept
> There are still only a handfull of UAV flying in real operations.
>
> See the trend.

[Grumblz]

Nope, Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands.
Thanks for this implicit compliment about my English ;-)

crouisk wrote:
> which Univ - is it Edinburgh ?

[Ron van Sommeren]

Hi Grumblz,

> We're looking at small-scale helicopters (~20 kg) because this
> allows us to fly under model airplane regulations which means
> that we donot need to certify our control system for test flights.

In the Netherlands, flying models is not allowed! Permission from the
mayor, farmer, site owner, police, it's not relevant. You need a permit
from the RLD. RC flight clubs have that permit.

If you want to contact Dutch helicopter pilots:
http://www.modelbouwforum.nl
http://heli.pruts.nl/

I guess you have already seen this one:
http://www.flycam.tudelft.nl/
I thought a (Eindhoven based?) company bought the Flycam concept from
http://www.helicopter.nl/ (owner then Jan Verhagen).

http://www.aero-tec-helicopter.de was formerly owned by Dieter Schluter,
the father of RC helicopters, he has been involved with aerial photography
for more than 20 years I guess.

Met vriendelijke groet ;-) Ron van Sommeren
Druten near Nijmegen, the Netherlands

[rene@lsm]

Hello Grumblz,
I don't understand your problem in getting a Bergen Twin. I recently bought on off Larry Bergen, shipped within 6 weeks to Nuenen, The Netherlands. so if you want any info please let me know, rene@lynxskymedia.nl
Succes Rene