Need help withr Rudder linkage...PLEASE!

[tenover]

Hi....
This is my first post in the boat section, but I frequent the Slope forums all the time....I've never had any kind of water craft before, and a friend and I picked up a couple cheap RC Surfers to try and modify. I have 2 problems left:

1.) Getting an airtight seal. Should there be NO water when you remove a hatch, not even a few drops....Or is that "normal" to have a few drops here and there in boats.....???

2.) This thing came with this little motor to control the rudder and I tore that out and am replacing that with a Hitec HS-85MG servo. No my problem lies in understanding how to link the servo to the rudder....Here's a very rudimentary drawing of how it's set up and what I need to do. I have all the tools I need to do anything, but am clueless on how to design something that will work.
Here's what I have, and ANY suggestions would be helpful..

[tenover]

This is what I was thinking, if I can somehow find a way to attach a servo horn or something to the plastic rudder.....would this provide enough throw??

[William A]

What are you ?, a newbe ? :)

Just set it up like an 'air' control surface.

[tenover]

Yes, I'm a newbee.....Man, I didn't think I'd run into anyone I "knew" over here in the boat section.

[William A]

Does it already have a water tight linkage pass-thru ?
A simple inner+outer brass tube set-up should work.

Toughest part might be getting a good horn to rudder adhesion.

[tenover]

That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out now.....The hole through the hole is DEFINITLEY not water tight. I suppose I can either "pot" the shaft with eopxy in the hole or use silicone for that, no?

[harry m.]

First get rid of the circle on servo and put an arm on it but don't put screw in till after centering is done. Use the outside hole on arm and on the rudder make the hole about 3/8" from rudder which will turn more with hole close to rudder. Where the wire goes thru the boat from rudder to servo get 1/16" hollow plastic tubing from hobby shop and when done with that put grease in plastic tube around wire and nead grease into it to keep water out. You can use the yellow ribbed gold and tie for airplanes which is the same size . Remember to put outdoor goop around tubing inside and outside and let dry for a day. Send me you're email and i will send a close up of mine!!

[martin richards]

A few drops is par for the course. Another idea for the pushrod exit is one of these bellows. They are Graupner, so might be available from Hobby Lobby.
Presumably you have the rudder outboard?

[martin richards]

Where did the photo go?:confused: try:
http://www.astecmodels.co.uk/products.php?posted=1&selection=accessory
towards bottom of page.

[harry m.]

They aren't worth the powder to blow them up cause they tear real easy unless you insert the whole unit from inside and just have the nibble showing. been there , done that! They are very expensive and the last year have gone up 100% in price, no way Jose!

[JoeR]

So tenover, you got me so geeked about this surfer thing that I had to get one. I got a Kyosho Surfer Dude. I am curious if anyone has put a brushless motor in one?

I don't like the on off switch controlled by a servo and would like a ESC with BEC. Rather then buy a brushed ESC I would rather put the money toward a brushless motor and ESC. Any advice anyone?

[harry m.]

What i think , is the brushless motor maybe be to powerful for the surfer and i would email the manufacturer and see what they have to say. One item is you're wallet better have deep pockets cause they are not CHEAP. An alternative maybe a Chameleon 2 #2110 with 33,000 rpm and use a brushed Rc-hydros esc without a bec due to radio interference and also go to fm tx and fm rx and then maybe a bec will work if radio grade is very good, it makes a difference!

[tenover]

Hey Joe....
Man, you're stoked! Wish I could get my hands on one of the Kyosho Surfers. Lots of guys are using brushless motors in them with great results, along with a 3300mah NIMH, getting around 20 minute runtime in the surf. I have one of the so called "cheap" ones, but I think it looks waaaay better than any others I've seen, and I've already been modifying it so much that I think it will hold it's own. Here's some REALLY good links I think you'll enjoy...

Here's my all around favorite....rcsurf.com (http://rcsurf.com)

Here's a good one with lot's of info and "how-to's".......surfrc.com (http://www.surfrc.com)

Here's one from Australia that has AWESOME pictures and videos...You'll be shocked at what these little things can do in the surf! (http://www.rcsurfing.net/)


And here's one dedicated to your Kyosho Surfer Dude.... (http://www.rcsurfers.com.au/home.htm)

And last but not least, here's a picture of my guy, with my custom painted wetsuit.....He comes just with trunks and no shirt.

[William A]

How 'bout a pic of that rudder mod your doing ?

[tenover]

It's still an issue....Where the rudder comes out of the upper hole, inside the surfboard, I will only have a bout 1/4" to play with unless I dremel some of the board material away so that the hatch will fit down into the slot.
Here's the first pic.....This is looking towards the rear of the board, where the rudder will come out (Last hole at the rear center of the board...)

[tenover]

Pic2...Close up of rudder hole

[tenover]

Here's a shot of the bottom of the board, where the rudder goes up through it....

[tenover]

Here's a shot of the rudder...Pretty basic. I will be making my own modified ones in the future that are just a single skeg....

[tenover]

Here's a shot of the rudder in the boat....I put the o-ring on the rudder, seems it'll help with a seal.

[tenover]

Here's a picture of what I thought I would do....Somehow mount the servo here (tape, CA, epoxy...??) and have a small pushrod going straight to a homemade "horn" somehow attached to the rudder shaft. Any ideas or suggestions? Harry sent me some pics of what he has done on a couple of his boats and it's pretty much what I was thinking, but if anyone else has some different options, please throw them out. One of my objectives is to be able to easily replace the rudder when it breaks, and be able to do the same little mod to future rudders (mounting some sort of horn to the shaft) without too much trouble....

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Take a wheel collar and solder a brass servo horn onto it and then use the set screw to lock it to the rudder post.

If you are going to replace the rudder, find some brass tubing that will fit into the hole, or drill out the hole to fit a piece of brass tubing. Then use a brass rod that fits the tubing I.D. and build your custom rudder on that. Then there will be no question that you will get a close tolerance fit at the rudder post this way.

You can go a step further and put some bushings in the tube and use a slightly smaller rod for the rudder post. Then you can place some petroleum jelly, or white lithium grease in the tubing to help seal out any water.

Double sticky tape, silicone, or, CA a piece of balsa to the servo, then then CA that to the hull. Silicone should work fine if there is not too much torque on the rudder.

[William A]

Originally posted by tenover
(tape, CA, epoxy...??)Shoe-Goo.

Personally, I'd stick with the original rudder design.
Looking at it's shape/design, it definitely plays a role in keeping it 'stuck' to the surface.

I also think that the 'brass tube inside another brass tube' (lubed with petroleum jelly) is about your only route.
A horn could be made from a set collar and thin brass sheeting.

What is the rudder made from ?, plastic ?.
Could you fab another from thin brass ?.

[William A]

Wow, almost word for word.
Umi, are you my long lost, forgotten twin ?

[tenover]

Yeah, the rudder is just plastic, so I guess I could shape a rudder from thin brass or aluminum and solder it to a brass post. Thanks for the suggestons about using a brass horn, collar, and set screw to attach it.....Sounds easy enough!

[harry m.]

I think someone is close by putting brass tubing around shaft and then another size bigger and so on and then solder the inner pieces together and use heavy grease around shaft and being you're in a warm climate, the thickness of grease won't have a negative effect. Like someone mentioned to put a collar around brass shaft and put a flat spot so shaft can only go so far and the n put a collar on the bottom too. Set screw will go in flat area of which you know. I think this will be the best system and won't freeze up on you. The wire or what you are going to use from servo arm to rudder arm better not be to heavy or strong cause you need some flex and will keep things from binding.

[harry m.]

RETIRED

[JoeR]

tenover, do you know what brushless setups people are using? What are you going to put in yours? I think your surfer is a little smaller then the Kyosho, correct?

Harry- Brushless motors- My point of reference is with RC helicopters. I know many people using a Mega 16/15/3 in place of a 540 brushed car motor in smaller RC helicopters. They are not that expensive, $80 for the motor. If it will work. Not sure why it would not. This Mega has a 3000 rpm/volt rating. I have seen somewhere people mentioning car motors with similar rpm/volt ratings for the "dude". I have a Kontronic 400/28 that is about the same size as the Mega 16/15/3 but has a 2800 rpm/volt rating.

Any idea what the rpm/volt of the Chameleon you mention? How many cells does it take to get the 33,000 rpm?

Not sure about the interference issue. My radio is an AM version. brushless motors do not have near as much problems with generating interference as brushed motors in my experience.

I will have to check with Castle Creations on these issues. Hopefully one of their controllers will work.

Its winter here in Michigan so I have some time to figure it all out. Though yesterday and today almost reached 40 with some good wind. Perhaps I should have given it a try.

Thanks, joe

[harry m.]

You know , it sounds like you're giving me **** ! You are mixing apples and oranges! Helicopters and boats are two different stories! Boats are harder on motors than anything else! What do you mean brushless are cheaper than; you forget the controller for brushless from castle is in the range of $150.00 for at least a 80 amp unit. Maybe the $80.00 Mega is too small. I was only trying to help this gentleman and at first he did not mention surfer but wanted to know how to make a rudder and linkage but that was all. Nothing was mentioned other than that. It sounds like you are trying to belittle a senior citizen and sure sounds like it and like my post ahead of this said--- RETIRED. I think that is enough said and i want no more. I didn't profess to be an expert and all further messages will be deleted. I have my own fleet and will keep info i know to myself cause am self taught and know what works and not works and you go figure you're own like i did!! Good -bye!!

[JoeR]

Harry- I had no intentions of offending. Please accept my appologies if I did. All I was doing is looking for information. I know nothing about boats and am just trying to learn.

You offered information that no one else did so I thank you for that. I was just trying to probe a little deeper.

As I said my point of reference are helicopters which are known for being hard on equipment also. They require full time 100% throttle or very close to it. The one thing they have over boats is a easier time getting cooling (I think anyway). People have been mounting fans under the canopy or cutting holes to allow the rotor wash to circulate

I know CC sells a Marine controller that is rated to 80 amps but is 80 amps required when using 6 cells packs? I was hoping that I could get away with a smaller one. As I said I do not know anything about boats.

I will start a different thread now rather than continue to take up space with info unrelated to Tenover's original post.

Thanks, Joe

[tenover]

No worries Joe-
Since no one has these, I think we should just keep it all together anyway.

[JoeR]

Thanks Tenover,

Have you seen any of these with brushless motors? If so, what are people running in them?

I contacted CC about a Phoenix. Shawn said that all but the Marine ESC has problems with the pistol grip radios. I guess they need more throttle range then pistol grip radios have.

He said they will "marine"-ize (my term) any of their controllers if asked. I guess that means they will dip them in silicone before shrink wrapping. Since my surfer came with a pistol grip radio I am out of luck though.

Evidently the marine version does not need any water cooling though. Unfortunately the Marine, with appropriate software for a pistol grip radio, only comes in the 80 amp size and it is $180.

He did also say that AM radios are no problem.

[tenover]

I have no idea what kind of BL motors people are running, but I know I read it on one of those links above....Mine came with a pistol grip, but I tore ALL the guts out of mine and am replacing it all with my own FM stuff and using a 2-stick radio.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well if motor cooling is an issue, then a boat would be a very tight and confined space to place a hot motor.

You would need to add a cooling coil and a water uptake, and output. It is fairly simple. The coil can be made out of copper tubing wound around the motor. uptakes are typically placed behind the propellers, and out put can be anywhere out the side of the hull. It can all be connected with fuel tubing.

Just some speculation, but they may have that forked rudder, so that if you are riding a large boat, or jetski wake, or actual surf, then one of the rudders will stay in the water as you cut the face of the wave.

[tenover]

That's exactly what everyones doing....cooling coil/input/output, and their actually installing tiny skegs in the rear that are purely cosmetic except for the fact that there's little holes in the front of each one that will take in water and route it through the tubes on each side of the hull.....You can kind of get an idea with this picture.

[JoeR]

Tenover,

Any more progress? What components (motor/ESC) are you going to put in your setup?

I am still trying to figure out an ESC for mine. The CC Phoenix marine seems to be nice but at $180 is too pricey. The other Phoenix controllers don't work with a pistol grip controller. I still need to check out other brushless controllers. I have a couple brushless motors that I will try to start. Hopefully one will work.

Perhaps the best alternative would be to just run it stock- on/off motor switch controlled by a servo and all and see how it works.

I did just get some hatch sealing foam tape from the local marine store to replace the stock foam that people complain about.

The temperature is suppose to break 40 here toward the end of the week and there is no ice buildup on Lake Michigan yet... Better get that foam tape installed and a battery pack made up. Just wish I had some waders!

[tenover]

Hey Joe-
The weather here right now is sunny and 70......Perfect winter weather, huh? I just got a 60amp Astro ESC that I will use along with a bigger motor (but not brushless.....yet). Good luck, and keep me updated on your progress.