Easiest/quickest bldg 2m woodie/elec?

[daveh]

Looking to partake on building my first woodie. Building/flying experience includes (don't laugh) Zagi, Moth, Fma Razor, Crazy Max, Ascent. Basically looking for the best kit out there that meets these requirements:

1. Fast, easy build with a good instruction book

2. Can be built with an electric motor--preferably 400 sp geared.

3. Rudder, elevator, polyhededral thermal machine. (I love my Ascent, looking for something bigger)

4. No ARF's, kit only

4. Again, the fastest, easiest building, with a good instruction book that a beginner could decipher.

Thank you!

Dave

[shoe]

Check out Ray Hayes' Bird series, specifically the 2m lil' bird
http://www.skybench.com/slbird.html

I built one of these last winter for a friend and it was a quick easy build. Nice laser cut parts and if you get stuck Ray is just an email away.

[daveh]

How are the instructions enclosed with the Skybench kits compared with others?

[shoe]

For me the instructions were just fine. Keep in mind this is the first wooden airplane I've built since a GP Spirit 100 I built in '93, so I don't have a lot of recent work to compare it to.

I would think that having put together the kits you listed above, the instructions should be fine. Ray uses lots of photos. You can get a sampling of his instructions on his "Assemby Tips" page.

http://www.skybench.com/assembly.html

[daveh]

Shoe,

Thanks, the Bird series looks pretty good. Any ballpark idea on how many hours to complete the one last winter?

Dave

[JFarlette]

Also consider the DJ Aerotech Chrysalis 2M. It is one of the easiest and fastest kits to build and the instructions are excellent. They do not have an electric version but there on notes on their web site which explain how to create one from the kit.

I have never built one of the Skybench Bird series but I have seen the instructions for an Osprey V HLG - they where not very good. Very confusing. Maybe the Bird series are better though.

Jason.

[wingsnapper]

I have built a number of Ray's Birds and have yet to get stumped by the instuctions. There are a coulple of places where a total newbie may have some trouble, but like others have said, Ray is very good about explaining things. Once it is built, I can tell you that you will be happy with the product. JS

[daveh]

Checked out the Skybench and DJ Aerotech sites. I'm leaning towards the Chrysalis as it comes with spoilers/hardware, and the Q and A on the site is very good. Thank you for the ideas!

[sritzi]

You might want to check out Laser Arts kits. I have a Sovereign 2M kit that I'm about to start and it appears to be very straight forward. Pod and boom design, excellent laser cutting and good directions.

You can find them at:
www.laserartco.com (http://www.laserartco.com)

and the Sovereign description can be found here:

http://members.aol.com/laserartco/page10.html

Good luck and happy holidays!

Steve

[chlee]

I've repeatedly heard from club members and other forums that you cannot lose with any of the three: Chrysalis, Bird, or Sovereign.

I have the Chrysalis.
- Yes, the Chrysalis comes with spoilers, but it was recommended to me to not use spoilers until I had mastered spot landing without them. So I left them out to save weight and servos.
- Instructions are excellent (mostly done with very clear line drawings and exploded diagrams). Email/telephone support is good, too.
- From limited observation, I would guess that the Chrysalis does not penetrate in wind as well as the Sovereign (probably because of its non-sheeted wing and lower wing loading).
- However, I've found sheeting and sanding the LE to be rather irritating/difficult aspects of building; so this may be a plus.
- The V-tail is useful for limiting damage; if you accidentally catch a clump of grass with a wing, the V-tail will lift up out of the way as it swings around.
- For a wood kit, it is a quick build. I made many modifications; without them, I'd estimate around 30 hrs. There are many time-saving design features -- for example, the Chrysalis has an interesting method to install shear webs in about 30 seconds.
- AUW, 27 oz.

Good luck,
Chung

[daveh]

I checked out the Sovereign and it looks like a good one too. It is heavier than the Chrysalis though, which is important as I am planning to electrify which will add +-15oz with motor, gearbox, speed control and battery. The E-Chrysalis at around 42oz looks hard to beat!

Thanks for the input re the Sovereign, Steve, and the additional commentary re the Chrysalis, Chung!

Dave

[sritzi]

Any time Dave, good luck with the project - they are all excellent options.

Happy Holidays,
Steve

[jgleigh]

I have a 2m Chrysalis and it actually penetrates quite well - the airfoil is fairly thin and this helps a lot. The combination of a lot of wing area and this airfoil is remarkably versatile. My only concern is that at 40+ oz electric you may be getting too heavy for your preferred speed 400. For instance, the WindDancer (also a kit but significantly more expensive) comes out at about 28 oz with a speed 400.

[chlee]

jgleigh brings up a good point. May I suggest the inexpensive Master Airscrew geared 600/folding prop combination?
Or, an even simpler direct drive 600 as D&J themselves have done:
http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/chrys_elec_3.html

Now you've got me thinking about building an electric fuse for my Chrysalis! :)

- Chung

[jgleigh]

There's also the 1.5m Chrysalis which might be more suitable for a speed 400. I have one of those too, and it's a sweet little airplane. Perfect on the slope on those days when the foamies can't stay up.

[daveh]

You guys are right, 40+oz will be too heavy for a speed 400 geared. Speed 600 geared makes sense. I saw the "electrification" on the DJ site and will use as a reference.

Has anyone out there electrified their 2m Chrysalis? Just wondering what setup was used, and how the plane reacted with the extra weight???

[macr]

Originally posted by chlee
I have the Chrysalis.
- Yes, the Chrysalis comes with spoilers, but it was recommended to me to not use spoilers until I had mastered spot landing without them. So I left them out to save weight and servos.
Good luck,
Chung
Why would you do that? Wouldn't it been easier to make it with spoilers and taped them down? Don't fit the servos as well. Then when you were up for it, you wouldn't of had to build a new wing, just fit the servos and away you go.

[chlee]

macr,
Yes, you're right. Other than the reasons cited earlier, however, I just decided that I won't ever need/want a third function for my lazy-Sunday-morning, non-competitive glider.

I'll probably do exactly as you say on my next project -- a 112" span RES ship.

- Chung

[macr]

I had a mate who did what you did to his prophet and he regretted it. On his part it was short sighted. He only had two channel radios, now he has a computer radio with five or six channels and he could've had the spoilers up and running in a short period of time. :(
What is the 112" RES model going to be?

[jgleigh]

daveh wrote:

" Has anyone out there electrified their 2m Chrysalis? Just wondering what setup was used, and how the plane reacted with the extra weight??"

Well, yes, I have. Reason I didn't mention it was that this was for a series of club contests where we flew three rounds on the same pack *without recharging*. I was using an Aveox 1005 with a 3.7:1 gearbox, and a 7-cell 3000 pack with a relatively small prop (forget what) to keep the amps down to less than 20 static. Climb with this setup was slow, but the total motor run was of the order of 8 minutes ... The glide was significantly faster, and the ability to work light thermals was compromised. With a more reasonable setup (say 1700's) and drawing 25+ amps with a geared motor, I think you'd have a pretty nice flying plane.

[chlee]

macr,
Perhaps I too will live to regret my decision. Oh well...
The RES plane will be a mix of old and new: a wing based on the old Mirage, mounted on a wood fuselage pod with a Bubble Dancer carbon boom. Spar is sized for high-start launches.

jgleigh, daveh, et al.

I just saw this gearbox while shopping around--it might be worth looking into:
http://www.aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=501
Has anyone tried this MPJ planetary gearbox? The only problem is that you'd have to find a folding prop that fits a 4mm shaft.

- Chung

[macr]

jgleigh, daveh, chlee.

Problem instantly solved
http://www.aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=928
#MMM-0600525 - fits MP Jet planetary gearboxes and others with 4mm shaft :D

[daveh]

Hey, you guys are great, this is gonna be a reasonably priced adventure!!

Now... If Iwere to use the following what do you guys think:
mpj-8063 3.8:1 planetary gearbox for 500-600 motors
CBP 1800 7 or 8 cell pack
14x9.5 folding prop
Multiplex permax 450 turbo motor

Thanks for the input!

Dave

[jgleigh]

daveh - Any idea what amps that combination will draw? You will need at least 70 watts/lb, or about 180 watts, say 20 amps at 9+ volts.

chlee- that's a great price on that gearbox!

[aeajr]

I am not a builder, but ....

My first sailplane is a GP Spirit Select 2M RES that I purchased RTF. The builders in the club told me that I should have built the kit because it is so easy and quick to build.

I later crashed it badly, so I picked up a kit for the plans and parts to make my rebuild/repair easier. For a guy who never built a kit, this was pretty easy.

If you are interested here is the kit site. You can download the manual.
http://www.greatplanes.com/airplanes/gpma0530.html

There is a verson, called the Spectra that is essentially the same plane, but typically takes a speed 600 motor.
http://www.greatplanes.com/airplanes/gpma0540.html

MODIFYING THE PLANE FOR AN ELECTRIC REMOVALBE POWER POD

My original interior layout used two CS-61 standard servos which sat under the wing, which is the standard placement. That arrangement required about 4 oz of lead in the nose weight compartment for balance. This is pretty typical for a Spirit, or so I am told.

The first change is to embed about 2 oz of lead in the nose block which gets it about 1" further forward. I am also moving the R/E servos forward, to the rear of the receiver compartment. The standard size cs-61 servos that were already in the plane just fit here. For a new build, HS-81 servos be a much better choice an could be moved even further forward. They have more than enough power.

I am switching to a Micro 555 receiver, instead of the original 3 channel AM receiver I had so I have a channel for motor control. Its small size allowed me to use reuse the standard servos in this placement.

With this 3 inch shift forward of the servo weigh, a change to the Micro 555 receiver, plus a 1" shift forward of weight to the nose block, I hope to reduce the net balance lead and end up with a plane that is 1-2 ozs lighter.

A second change will be a switch to golden 'n rod control rods for the elevator and rudder so I can run them down the sides of the plane. The standard control rods ran down the center. This opens up the space under the wing, which is right over the CG, to accomodate a 2100 mah nicad battery pack to power the Speed 600 power pod.

This will allow me to convert from sailplane to e-glider at will.
Placing the battery directly over the CG should minimize or eliminate any need for rebalancing or adding balance weight when I add and remove the pod. Having to do a lot of rebalancing would make it very inconvenient to use the
pod.

With these changes I have the opportunity to have a lighter plane. I gain the flexibility to add electric power at will, or have a very convenient place to add ballast weight when I am flying in heavy wind. I always found it challenging to find a well
balanced place to add ballast. Now it will be easy. I might even just add the pod battery, 12-14 ozs without the pod when I need significant ballast.

If you like the power pod idea, that is about $32 at www.towerhobbies.com.

[daveh]

jgleigh--according to P-calc, with 8 cells, about 16 amps
aeajr--thanks for the other option, will have to check out the power pod from Tower

Dave

[jgleigh]

daveh - I think you will need to go to a bigger prop to get enough power. I'd aim for 20+ amps.

[daveh]

Jgleigh, ok if I go with a 16x10, according to p-calc:

motor amps: 20.37
61% efficiency
prop static thrust 43oz
prop pitchspeed 31 mph
approx power system weight +-20oz

Will this take a 47oz Chrysalis 2m up at a decent climb rate?

[jgleigh]

daveh - The static thrust sounds good. Should climb pretty well. I see the Turbo 450 is rated up to 25 amps so you could even push it a little harder (grin). BTW, you may end up a little lighter than 47 oz. I just weighed my Chrysalis; without motor or radio gear it is 600 gms or 21 ozs.

[daveh]

Thanks for all the help guys,

Happy Holidays!!

Daveh

[Don T.]

Dave, have you considered Hobby Lobby's "Skimmer" series electric sailplanes? They make both a Speed 400 & Speed 600 version (as well as a low-wing 400) that are very quick building & thermal great! I built one of the Speed 600 versions back in `95 and still have it around for those days when I want to fly a lot but don't have any time to launch & retrieve multiple times. It isn't a polyhedral plane but it is rudder/ elevator only. The best thing about that is that it really grooves like an aileron plane but is as stable as a poly floater. I heartily recommend the Speed 600 version since I have plenty of experience with it.

The only mods I made to mine were to make the wing a bolt-on instead of band-on and to add a couple of strips of triangle stock at the rear to give a bit of added support to the tail group. The hatch was made snap-on instead of screw-on, but that's simply personal preference. I built it with the recommended gear package (Speed 600 direct drive with Graupner 8-4.5 folder & 7 cells) and it climbs out like a homesick angel. I can count on at least 20 minutes of flying time no matter what the thermals are doing; most of the time it's more like 45 minutes or better with about 2 1/2 climbs to altitude and then thermalling until I'm tired. I always try to save my last half-height climb for that emergency return to the field (just in case I get a bit too far away & haven't found any lift). It's also a low cost kit (although it's gone up from the $27 mine cost) and builds very straight forward. Go to their web site (www.hobby-lobby.com) and check it out!

[daveh]

Don,
Just checked out the skimmer at HobbyLobby's site. I think I'll pass due to I like the overall "look" of the Chrysalis/Lil Bird better, they're lighter when built, and I believe the skimmer will be more difficult to build due to lack of laser cut parts. The price of the skimmer on sale for $33.50 sure is nice though!! Thanks for the input!!!

Dave

[Don T.]

Actually, mine took about the same amount of time to build as my 1.5m Chrysalis. The cutting was quite good for such a low cost kit. Anyhow, I just wanted to throw that one in there as an option since you mentioned "low cost" as a deciding factor. I've had the Chrysalis HLG and MM Glidertech's Illusion HLG in the past & found both of them to be quite fun as far as pure sailplanes go. I have had a few other electric sailplanes (Goldberg Electra, Airtronics Eclipse & Graupner UHU to name a few) but only one of them has been able to hang around for any length of time. My current host of electrics is the aforementioned Skimmer and my Sig Rascal (which will be leaving soon, I'm already bored with it!). I'll have to see if I can't find & scan a couple of pics of my Skimmer since I think the color scheme that HL uses for advertising it doesn't do it any favors!

No matter what you choose, have fun with it!

[bfretless]

You might want to check out Laser Arts kits. I have a Sovereign 2M kit that I'm about to start and it appears to be very straight forward. Pod and boom design, excellent laser cutting and good directions.

Steve, have you started in on the Sovereign yet? If you have, how about an update on the build? (You might want to start a new thread.) I'm getting a Sovereign sometime soon, and would appreciate any pointers.

It seems the kit keeps getting mentioned here as a good choice, but no one has actually built or flown one!

[Eberwein]

sritzi,

My name is Brian Eberwein, owner of Laser Arts.

If you are about to build the Sovereign, would you mind posting a build thread on here?

I would like an honest, no-holds barred review/build to be posted here. That helps me in a couple ways, it gets the build shown here, and it might give me feedback that I can incorporate in future versions of the kit.

I'll give you a deal on any of the other kits I sell.

Thanks,
Brian Eberwein

[sritzi]

Hi Bill & Brian,

Thanks for your note regarding the Sovereign. Shortly after I posted the note regarding the build, things with work got extremely busy and I moved to an apartment that didn't offer good building space. I ended up shipping the kit off to Custom Built Models of Yerington, NV to have it built. I'm expecting it back sometime in the next couple of weeks. I'd be happy to give you flight reports but unfortunately won't be able to comment on the ease of the build.

Regards,
Steve

[aeajr]

sritzi,

My name is Brian Eberwein, owner of Laser Arts.

If you are about to build the Sovereign, would you mind posting a build thread on here?

I would like an honest, no-holds barred review/build to be posted here. That helps me in a couple ways, it gets the build shown here, and it might give me feedback that I can incorporate in future versions of the kit.

I'll give you a deal on any of the other kits I sell.

Thanks,
Brian Eberwein

What an outstanding thing to suggest. Clearly you are concerned and committed to the satisfaction of your customers if you are willing to ask a random buyer to expose the build on-line. Already I am impressed with your products.

Ed Anderson
www.rcezine.com
www.lisf.org

[sritzi]

Hi Ed,

While I wasn't able to take on the build of the Sovereign kit, I can tell you first hand the quality was absolutely top notch. The quality of the laser cutting, wood selection, hardware, etc. was all exceptional. The plans and instructions were also of very good quality. I really enjoy building and would have liked to have taken on the project had I had the space and time available.

Best,
Steve

[aeajr]

Thanks for the report Steve. This kind of feedback is important to all of who might consider one of these models. It is also very important for the kit makers who depend on word of mouth, or post of forum in this case, to validate that they put out a quality product.

I hope you find space and time in the future to go back to building.

[bfretless]

I would like an honest, no-holds barred review/build to be posted here. That helps me in a couple ways, it gets the build shown here, and it might give me feedback that I can incorporate in future versions of the kit.

I'll give you a deal on any of the other kits I sell.

Thanks,
Brian Eberwein

Brian, I'll do a build/fly report here when I order my Sovereign, which should be soon. I'm hoping to have it finished with plenty of time left to fly in the '04 flying season. If you want to give me a deal that'd be great, but you can't stop me -- I'm ordering it regardless! :p

There are three reasons I've chosen the Sovereign.

Two-meter span:
While a three-meter would be nice, I don't have room around here to fly larger sailplanes. I plan to add flaps on the inboard panel, because of the smaller sites I fly at. I need a steeper approach than I can get from a clean sailplane without them.

S3021 airfoil:
I have really enjoyed the flight characteristics of the 3021 on other planes I have flown. In Nebraska you need something that can handle the wind -- it never stops!

Recommendations by others:
I'm hoping the laser cut kit falls together as quickly as everyones says they do, and Laser Arts kits get nothing but praise - 'nuf said!

--
Bill

[Eberwein]

Ed,

Thanks for the compliment. I need to learn what people like/dislike about my products as well as others. If there are any negatives or suggestions in an open forum, it makes me do something immediately (or VERY shortly),


Bill,

Since you're going to build it anyway, how about a free C.G. Locator? (I'm biased of course, but I live this thing!) or we can work out a discount on any other kit. Email me and we'll work something out.

And yes, you'll get somethng no matter what your feedback is.

Brian

[RyanPSU21]

I have done a conversion of the Chrysalis HLG with direct drive speed 400. I'd like to someday do the 2meter version and wish they'd come out with a standard class or larger version. The wing looks really good in the air. The HLG kit is excellent.

I've also done electric conversion for a regular Spirit 2m and a Spirit Elite 2m. Of the 2 I'd recomment the regular Spirit as much easier to build.