Full Contact Combat

[ED B]

At my club, The Washington Crossing R/C Flyers Assoc., we fly 2 different types of full contact combat. The first is Zagi vs. Zagi, or any other flying wing. The object is to knock the other planes out of the air while keeping yours flying. The second, which is much more popular is called "Mission to Berlin". This requires 2-6 Zagis and a J K Aerotek T-52. The T-52 pilot has to fly as slowly as possible back and forth across the field without making evasive manouvers as the Zagis try to knock him out of the sky. If there are less than 4 Zagis they all go after the Bomber(T-52). If there are more than 4 Zagis, then 2 of them will fly "fighter escort" for the T-52 while the rest try to attack the T-52. No official score is kept. Trash talking and hurling insults at your fellow pilots is mandatory. We have a few basic rules. Power: Speed 400 type motors only. Batteries: 8 cell max. Airframe: Foam, tape, and coroplast construction only. Carbon spars may be used to eliminate "Zagi flap" but they must be completely imbedded in the wing and not near the leading edge. Our T-52 use Speed 400s with MP jet metal planetary gearboxes and folding props. They can take an incredible pounding and keep flying. We've flown these events with members of the Bergen County Silent Fliers and the South Jersey Silent fliers. Are we alone or are others doing this too?

Ed

[rdc767]

I am interested in electric combat. How much damage is enabled by the "Prop"? Is an electric prop a major source of damage? I just bought some batteries, esc, lipos ect!!! I want to make some flying wings for some indoor combat. I was planing on copying the Texas falcon out of fan fold and using a gws350d with a 12x6 prop. I was wondering how much armor to use. I was going to shield the receiver,esc....
On another topic. Is a streamer not viable? From what I've read most indoor combat is to knock down your opponet. I was thinking of a extremely light weight streamer.
Ron

[boiler]

Ron, most of the electric combat that I've seen or been involved in is contact with Zagi wings which use a pusher prop. If you put a prop up front, the gasser type combat would be more feasible. I've heard of using toilet tissue strips for streamers as they are light weight and less likely to stop the electric engine. I don't think that the average electric would do well with sticky on the wing and 10 streamers. A brushless motor and other hot options could over come this but the carnage would increas just like it does in 2610 of open b classes.

[drewjet]

The other contact combat is using IFO's. We have found them to be much more fun than zagis, because you can fly right in front of yourself and the number of hits goes way up.

Drew

[sheepy]

Ron, I am thinking along the lines of the SPA3D that Kraut posted on RCCA forum for cul-de-sac/toilet paper combat with my son. I have a flat fanfold wing with 36" span reinforced with 1/8 wooden dowel, and strapping tape. Will use the 'ripped' yardstick for the fuselage. I just need to glue this stuff together. Will omit the rudder, and just have throttle/ail/elev control. Will try a 370? motor from a fighterbird(since I have one), and the batteries from fighterbird as well. Pixie20 speed control. If it works, I will probably make the plunge to lipos as well. Maybe I will get motivated tonight, and glue it together.

[slamson]

the ifo's are the set-up. they take an awful lot of abuse. i can fly them in my front yard. and they don't cost an arm and a leg. the motor is a simple a drive.


nothing better than flying close and bumpin and grinding

slamson

[rdc767]

I just got my gws 350d motor and 12x6 prop and some 1200lipo's 2sp1? I think this is right. I like the ifo's also.
I am going to try a fan fold Falcon. Around 36" with 360sq". I hope to get the wing loading around 5oz sq ft. NOT sure how much armor or if a spar is needed. I'll post some pictures after xmas. If it works out I am going to make a few more and add some tissue streamers. !!!
Ron

[rdc767]

Here is a picture of the fan fold falcon. I few it last night in the dark. More testing today. Not much leading edge armor. I could add some bidirectional tape if need.
Ron

[sheepy]

I tested my experiment yesterday, and it did not go well. I had tried the same design 6 months ago with a sp600, and it was just way too heavy. This was the same airframe with a sp370 direct drive and a 6x3 tornado prop. 1500 2s1p lipos. AUW 16oz. (way too heavy). 250 sq in wing with s8035 airfoil from foamular 600(60psi foam from a cut down slimer combat wing). I still haven't glued the yardstick fanfold test together yet. That will be the next step. That should drop the weight to 12 oz or less. 7 oz wingloading should be way better than 10 oz. Keep us posted Ron. Where are the lipos mounted? What servos? receiver?

[rdc767]

sheep
It 48" with 13" cord and 7" tips. So 480" sq". It light 12 ounce with 1200mil amp 2s1p. It has hs55's but I am going to swith to 81' to combat with. The wing spar is a fiber glass rod glued and taped on with tape. I have the yard stick zipped tied to 2 plywood plates in the center. The ailerons are 2" wide. No real armor yet but looks like I've got pleanty of weight to spare.
More testing in the day light. So far so good. I think the flat airfoil should work well. I think a cut foam wing just adds to much weight. I was thinking of gluing foam ribs under the wing so there would be a curve to the wing but the wing loading is so low now.
Ron

[drewjet]

Looks great ron. I am looking forward to flight reviews

[boiler]

Ron, are you planing on streamers or full contact stuff?

[highflier]

Ed,

I am local to you. Holland PA, I have logged quite a few hours in combat, Would be nice to talk trash with more pilots, Only one problem. I got tired of the sp 400 motors (high maintence) and now fly with a brushless Mega on my WW Raider. I usually just fly at the local highschool.

Let me know if you want to meet up sometime.

Highflier

PS. I bring 4 chargers and 2 deep cycle batteries so that I can fly almost continous back to back flights.

[rdc767]

Just a quick update for anyone intrested. I had to add some 1" wide strapping tape to the bottom and top of the wings to keep the flexing down. I think the 1/8 glasss rod is useless. Just added weight. The lipos aren't as strong as I thought they be. I am only getting 4 minute flights. I might try a smaller prop and try cutting down some more weight. The tail and motor holder yardstick might be shaved down and the wing made a bit smaller. I started out at 48" and I just cut it down to 42". A profile fuselage might be lighter.
Ron

[ED B]

highflier, Once spring gets here, we will be flying combat every thursday evening from @ 5:00 on 'til dusk. As long as the weather isn't too awful, you can usually find someone at our club field on the weekends in the winter. Club website with map etc. is www.wcrc.rchomepage.com

Ron, I'm not sure if fanfold is durable enough for full contact. If you fly against similar planes it might be OK, but I think a Zagi type wing weighing @ 20-25 oz. would break right through your ship. As far as I can tell most Streamer combat usually involves contact between planes at some point, whether accidental or intentional. Tractor type planes don't make good full contact participants because the motor/prop will take the brunt of the impact with each hit, while a pusher rarely suffers any damage from delivering a hit.

Ed

[Ryan Archer]

I've never heard of indoor combat.

[highflier]

Ed,
Would my plane be welcome in your combat games?

Zagi like plane (ww raider)
Brushless
8 cell NMHI
7 x 4


Highflier

[ED B]

Highflier,
Stop by next Thursday after 5:00pm. I'm sure we can duke it out in the sky. Directions to club field are at www.wcrc.rchomepage.com
Check out the June/July newsletter, page 2 for photos of a typical Zagi night at our field.

Ed

[stone_axe]

I wish I lived close enough to fly combat with you guys!!

I disagree that tractor prop designs aren't suited for combat. The weight and chewing action of the motor can be put to good use. Zagis have their gear relatively exposed and can't endure losing a control surface.

I went through countless can motors in the last few years trying to perfect a new electric combat formula. After much trial and error and several failed prototypes I stumbled upon a little secret. Mounting an electric motor with electrical tape is sufficient to keep it in place during flight but compliant enough to not bend motor shafts or break propellors.

I was bending shafts just on landing using lil stiff APC props. One day I had snapped my mounting lugs and was out of rubber bands so I improvised and just taped the motor to the (fuse) shaft and it worked fine. Now I have even stress-tested using electrical tape in several very harsh nose-first crashes. Even in those cases the motor shaft has survived because the tape gives way MUCH more gently than screws or rubber bands.

[highflier]

That defintly will help (electical tape) I used to use cable ties. But long term it was a pain in the A#$ to always be remounting the motor.

Tractor mode would cause a lot of prop breaks. IMHO Although the chopping action would be nice.

I will say this again. 1.5 years on same motor. Hundreds of crashes. same plane. I actually have worn out 8 packs AUP 1700 batteries on one plane! That plane still flies just fine. Many of the mid airs are Head on Head. I recently got one of the Midairs on digital tape. I will be posting it on web shortly. I will post link once it is up.

With mods I now Never loose motor in crash.
Almost never eject a Battery
No Plane structual repairs needed at all.

I still need from time to time
New prop (#1 failure) (greatly reduced after I changed brands of props.
Rebend/connect the Control rod. #2 Failure
Tape to cover a prop cut. #3 failure
Occational control arm on the servo #4 failure

I am considering mounting the control rods in the wing. I think it will help but right now repairs take about 15 seconds. I am worried if I mount it in the wing repairs will be less frequent but effort will quadruple.

Words to live buy if you want to fly alot of combat

1) Motor MUST!!!! have a 5MM shaft (Mega 22/10/5 works perfect)
2) Wing must be 100% EPP with Carbon rods (WW raider Ultimate spar is best I have found)
3) IN crash the weight of the motor must push into the Foam of the wing.
4) Velcro for the batteries is not going to cut it. Use straps that have a locking methos. REI sells ones that work perfect.
5) use a sturdy prop (I like MA 7x4)

I will post a close up picture of plane soon.

Highflier