Depron 3D Planes and Norvel Thrust

[Bud Morrison]

Im planning on converting one of the 3D planes in the following thread link to glow power.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172623

I need to find out the thrust of a Norvel .049 and the thrust of the norvel .061 To figure out wich engine will be needed for the conversion. Im hoping someone may know these numbers.

[Lynn S]

I have never seen thrust mentioned, just hp.(.31 and.19 hp)
Since they are both the same size and price, I would go with a .061. You can change props to adjust thrust or use throttle.
Does anyone know a formula that converts H.P. to thrust?

[Bud Morrison]

I found a thrust calculator but havent had time to make sense of it yet


http://www.bmaps.net/software/thrusthpv20d.zip

Take a look at it once.

[steve lewin]

In theory you just plug in the prop size and the rpm it makes and it will tell you the thrust. Interestingly the prop pitch has no effect on thrust. I don't think it works too well at the smaller sizes though. A 6" APC prop at 16000 rpm gives 1lb thrust which is well over twice what Motocalc shows for a similar setup. I'm not convinced :(.

Steve

[Bud Morrison]

Yes I noticed the same and at 20,000 its wayyyy over a lb

[DICKEYBIRD]

I have a PBF type plane that weighs about 11 1/2 oz. that has had a Tee Dee .049 and recently a Norvel .061 with a Cox 5x3 black nylon prop. I would estimate the thrust with that prop to be about 12 to 14 oz. at 19-20K. I was beginning to experiment with an APC 5.5 and 6x2 but the weather turned on me. These engines need to wail to get the power you need.

[Bud Morrison]

How is the verticle performance and or hover with the .061 on it.
Im looking to get 18-22 oz of thrust out of what ever I put on it.
maybe I should be looking at an .075 . When I first started thinking about doing this I was afraid an .o61 may be overkill I guess not.

quick link to the weight and specs of the plane are here.

http://www.foamyfactory.com/airplanes.htm

[RiBell]

I've been following and chiming in on those threads going to do a couple of those 3DX's with a 300 motor. I'm after a practice plane. I'm after a brushless Tantrum, on LiPoly's as my only electric. the 3DX that I did was 12 oz with a 4oz batt on it.
I think that a Norvel wouldn't have any problems with that. As a ESC/ batt/ and motor are probably heavier than the Norvel/ fuel tank/throttle servo and Rx batt.

try this again.
P.S.
I asked this a while ago.
Aircraft weight for a Norvel 0.061 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161141)

[Bud Morrison]

Yuh but I want to go from hover to verticle in a flip of the throttle :) Wich means I need all but a 2:1 thrust to weight ratio.
18-20 oz of thrust would be idea. So I need some conrete thrust figures with props for the norvels. I know someone out there at one time or another has actually done a static thrust test on the norvels. Just need them to see this thread :)

[RiBell]

The 0.074's are suspost to be huge power. Some one said that they have more power than the average 0.10. I don't have any experance on this personaly. But the guy's at Hobby Hanger said that they liked it best in the "Mini Edge 540"
Going glow power on the 3DX or Ultimate might require some strategic hardwood/carbon fibre tp stiffen it up
Rick

[Bud Morrison]

Carbon extreme packaging tape and ultracote :)

[RiBell]

OK Bud.
I've got some fan fold: A Norvel 0.061: I've built a 3DX (if you can call it building) and tryied it with the GWS 300c motor and had a duff batt but it did fly sorta OK just no power.
I'm going to do a parkflyer with a brushless motor (Tantrum) it will probably be my only electric, unless I see something really cool.
I've kinda moved away from 1/2A and just starting to look back into it. A 3DX would be kinda neet.
Rick

[Bud Morrison]

My carbon spars showed up yesterday. Im waiting for my depron from DepronUSA wich Carl said should be shipping hopefully next week. Ive already scratched out all the changes to the airframe I was planning for an .061 but think I will need to take a second look at those changes if I find I need to go to an .074 .

So Im back to the issue of finding some scientific thrust figures for the norvels with diffrent prop combinations. You would think Norvel would have that info.

I take all engine manufactures HP ratings with a grain of salt. So I can't do reliable thust calculations using their hp ratings. An ouce or two one way or the other would make a big diffrence on one of these planes.

[TEM]

http://www.flyquiet.com/ they sell mufflers but I remembered somewhere on their page having thrust numbers for norvel engines before and after the muffler conversion... And you're right about trusting numbers you get from a manufacturer but well.. it's better to have SOMETHING to look at.....

A .074 having more power than a .10 is kind of debatable. But it is a heck of a lot lighter though!

[RiBell]

What about building a thrust gauge like the electric guy's do.
A little car thingy with the engine on it and a fish scale.
I'd just try it with the 0.061 see how it does unless you need to buy an engine for the project, then I'd just go with the 0.074.

[sturmvogel]

I believe the real important item here is the propeller! A large disc area with low pitch (like 7Dx2"P) done in carbon fibre) would be required...
Bob Peterson

[Bud Morrison]

I have a feeling the norvel .074 is going to be total overkill on one of these planes. But I would rather error on the side of power :)

Still waiting for my Depron!

[TEM]

Why not just go with .074 but with a lower nitro fuel to tame it or run different props for the initial flights....

Anyhow, anyone got them thrust numbers on these engines yet?

[RiBell]

Originally posted by Bud Morrison
I have a feeling the norvel .074 is going to be total overkill on one of these planes. But I would rather error on the side of power :)

Still waiting for my Depron!
I agree. the left stick doesn't need to be all the way up all the time. I've got one sorta flying with electric power having motor/batt issue's I've got two more cut out of the fan-fold.
The idea of sticking my Norvel 0.061 in it is getting tempting.
Maybe the Ultimate?
Bud where You planing on striping the plastic off before covering the foam?
Rick

[Bud Morrison]

No I found that glow fuel wont eat the depron. I am now going to cover mine in packaging tape

[RiBell]

I just finished playing around with my 3DX. I'm not getting anymore impressed with this small electric stuff. I keep picking up my Norvel 0.061 and keep thinking I should try this. Maybe get some coloured "Zaggi" tape for a paint scheme.
Bud.
which one are you planing on trying?
Rick

[Bud Morrison]

Im prolly gonna give the 3dx a try first

Im going to use dual carbon spars in it. Sorta like the GWS mount but 2 of them one coming from each engine mount rail and some real thin like 1/32 - 3/64 wood on the left side from the motor mounts back to the wing for fuel tank mounting with rubber bands

[Bud Morrison]

MY DEPRON HAS SHIPPED! WOOOHOOOO

[heymanwatchis]

I have build blue-core, fan fold, flat plate planes with .074 norvels and OS .15 LA's. The .15 has better vertical, but the .074 is a better plane, all around. Lighter..better hover. Also, I'd like to say that the Norvel.074 "IS" as powerful as a .10. Better fuel economy too. .074,7x3 prop, 15oz AUW, you'll have sustained vertical. It won't punch out of a hover like a rocket, but plenty to escape from any angle. Remember to keep the fuse as clean as possible to allow as much airflow from the prop as possible. The main thing that will hinder you is the limited diameter prop you can turn.
ps. I have flown 3Dx with Nippy 1208/100, .074, and .15 and they perform in the same order from best to worst.

[heymanwatchis]

P.S.S The norvel is not overkill. Glue motor mount to carbon tube, and hold the engine while cranking. Do Not Hold By The Fuse!
Low temp covering sticks pretty well to the blue stuff.

[RiBell]

Originally posted by heymanwatchis
Also, I'd like to say that the Norvel.074 "IS" as powerful as a .10. Better fuel economy too
I built a Hobby Hanger "mini Edge 540" a couple of years ago. The customer support guy's said that using Norvel 0.074 was their favourite engine to use. If my experience with the Edge says anything: And the 0.074 is that powerful, as some have said.I can see why they liked it so much.
I'm very close to giving up on all electric parkflyers. I just can't get the peformance that I really want from them.
Maybe it's time to try something with my 061.
Rick

[CrocEnd]

Rick .061 in a ace simple 400 it's great prop cox 6x3 best.
.074 same plane out of sight out of mind vertical. Plane weight's 16.5oz and 18 flat.
CrocEnd

[CrocEnd]

Another . The PBF is my test bed and run plane novel .049 is same size caseing etc. as.061.

[RiBell]

Croc.
How big is your PBF and is it posterboard or coroplast? I've got one built as per the plans (using the down-spout) on spadtothebone with a 0.19 in it. I did one a while ago, (just flat) breaking a prop per flight got old real fast. I like the drain pipe to keep the radio gear protected. I'll put a wheel on this one for a prop saver if i need to.
I still like my giant scale, but the cost of getting back into 1/2A is sure appealing.
Rick

[CrocEnd]

Rick The PBF is 18.5'' square,3mm coro advertising board from a local pub. It the.074 in that pic and it go's mad at full power but the throttle work's best power .061.
Croc