mechanical winch-www.grasshopperwinch.com

[bbreidenbach]

new device full page ad quiet flyer mag. i have requested addititional info concerning approx tension at various lengths of pull when set up for full tension.not sure they will repond.please e-mail jim lewis. @ www.grasshopperwinch.com : it is approx. $250 but looks to have value. i have winch and hi-start experience. his first reponse was a little terse to technical questions. such as will a addititonal 14 lb -10lb. pull of rubber tubing at end of winch line . winch---line------tube--line-chute. regarding tension of steel ribbon he said "depends". : had concerns on rust: he did say the the steel ribbon was stainless steel but i know some alloys will rust under severe conditions.

[Ollie]

From the pictures it would appear that the large "clock" spring is blued. Bluing as you know is a chemical treatment of a steel surface that resists rusting. However, if the bluing is scratched or worn away the rust protection is lost. Stainless steel is not springy enough to be used for the coiled spring.

A wise protection would be to put down a water proof mat like a rubber door mat under the "winch" to protect it from wet vegetation or othe source of moisture. If the spring does get wet, a thorough drying after use should prevent rust.

Changes in gearing can trade speed for line tension or line tension for speed. How well the device will launch a particular plane depends not only on size but on wing loading and airfoil. A big floater like a Paragon may launch better than a smaller plane with higher wing loading. The need for additional energy storage by a section of rubber tubing is an indication that the device doesn't deliver enough initial power for the application or launch technique.

[bbreidenbach]

in mag. ad. "1000'ft.lbs.energy , for up to a 3lb plane. has linear pull. not very much offered in their faq. need more info to spend $250 with no trial or satisfaction ,no mention of warranty'but if it works as advertised i like the offered advantages.a ""linear""?pull no rubber,small field, 2lbs plane to 500'maybe?? even launch off small slope , low tension at launch might be desirable.

[MikeC]

Grasshopper website says that there is a 30 day money back trial.
It may be returned for any reason as long as it is in resellable condition. Also they have no experience with using rubber in conjuction with the winch which uses a STAINLESS STEEL spring.
Warranty is 180 days.

Sounds great for smallish fields and two meter sailplanes.

Mike

[Ollie]

The spring may store 1000 foot pounds of energy but it can't deliver 1000 foot pounds of energy in the potential energy of launch height gain. There are energy losses in the gears, in the line drag, in the line weight altitude gain, in the kenetic energy gain of the model to reach airspeed and in the drag of the model. If the device could deliver even 90% of the stored energy in the form of launch height, a two pound plane in no wind could launch to a maximum of 450 feet. A three pound plane to a maximum of 300 feet in no wind conditions. A four pound plane could launch to a maximum of 225 feet in no wind conditions.

IMO this is limited to two meter planes or possibly a bit larger if the wing loading were very low. One of its advantages is that there are very few wings it might break.

With two or three times the energy storage it might be suitable for general application.

[bbreidenbach]

to mike and ollie ,thanks for you input. : i e-mailed their tech. site with questions on 11/02/03 ( unless i missed the info on warr./trial period ) and requested a demo.jim lewis said "no": i meant trial period. after the first e-mail, i e-mailed the suggestion box magically ( i think): the web site changed the info. on the terms. they wanted me to call them after the second e-mail. i called but missed jim lewis at tech.dept . my SPECTRE 4-servo wing 2-meter by dj- aerotech weighs 2.04lbs. with ballast (OLLIE i was just guesstimating the launch height , ""maybe ??? 500ft.""). mikec i'm sure they changed at least the claim of linearity it now says "95% linear" . i love to fly slope and i can find a thermal like you wouldn't belive even @ 450' msl . cheers and many happy flights !!! p.s. with a trial period i might try this invention

[bbreidenbach]

well i've ordered a "grasshopper" jim lewis in tech. dept. very helpful. winch can be returned if in " as new condition ". has ball bearing ,stainless steel ribbon. the constant tension should make launching easier/different. - now just need the weather to co-operate!!

[fprintf]

It seems like you might be the first. I definitely am looking forward to hearing your flight experiences. Do you have experience with a histart and a winch? Can you compare the grasshopper against the two?

[bbreidenbach]

yes,yes,yes somewhat limited experience with winches ,none with those big competition types with retrievers.i've bungied,used wimpy hi-starts,even aero-towed.

[AustinTatious]

I could make you guys some super bungees, they could launch any plane you want to almost any altitude you want. They woudl cost 55 bucks or less, how can this grasshopper possibly be worth 5 times as much.

[bbreidenbach]

apparently there's a sucker born every minute. i recieved e-mail from the company explaning the delay in shipping . my order is supposed to now ship middle of next week due to the un-expected volume of sales !! go figure.

[fprintf]

Austin,

I think the real value is in the size of the field required to operate the winch. Plus for lighter planes it definitely has an advantage because you don't need to lift the rubber. Finally, my histart is frustrating when launching without wind as the plane just floats off the top at 300 feet or so.

p.s. www.aerofoam.com has some awesome Hollyday histarts. I'd never buy another histart from anyone else. Zoom Zoom!

[bbreidenbach]

upon futher reflection this image appeared. this unit comes with a small length of elastic to allow the inertia of steel ribbon to be overcome when launching in zero winds if pop-offs occur(read in their FAQ'S). i'm having visions of it re-winding at warp speed.i guess the drag of the parachute will retard the process.i love it when i answer my own questions(nevermind !!!). hopefully this winch will outlast four or five "rubbers". this long duration type of pull/launch should require less tension than a bungee. soooo! you place winch at tree line with set-up for 16lbs of pull, un-spool a short length line,launch and start ds'ing . set-up for 8 lb. pull you should be able to have 60 yards of pull for thermal flying by un-spooling a long length of line(detemined by strength of wind)

[bbreidenbach]

i requested info from company. will a line break damage unit by rapidly re-winding spring ,is a parachute required ?

[AustinTatious]

fprintf,

That grasshopper winch is gonna need every bit as much field to operate as a "high start" Is not like a powered winch that you can "modulate" the pull with a foot pedal. And unless you have Extra line that is layed out before any spring tension, it will pull the end of the line right up to the winch. Also about the plane having to "pick up the rubber" Thats not a bad thing, I watch guys STAND on a wench pedal to put all the downward pull available in order to "zoom" off the line, i do it too. Having heavy rubber hanging below your plane will only accelerate it by increasing the wing loading once its at the top of the launch, thus allowing you to get some extra altitude.

If you could somehow modulate the pull on this little wench it might prove better than a high start, of course that mean haveing a turnaround so that you stand next to the grasshopper. It jsut seems that a constant pull, be it from a spring or a piece of latex is all the same, how will the plane know the differance? maybee you can modulate the pull of the grasshopper, if you can than i retract all i have said.

Austin

[bbreidenbach]

should require less space to launch than bungee.because the pull is 95 % linear as opposed to a rubber. easily adustible line length and preset tension would allow either a zoom or floaty off the top launch. fprintf i think has a light fragile ship and does not want to shed his wings using a too strong hi-start. his line may be too long for wind conditions or hi-start tension resulting in "floaty launch" for example he cannot lift a large portion of heavy rubber and cannot pop-off at the top with authority. this unit cannot "modulate" but the constant pull might result in a higher/faster launch under similar condition and initial tension of launch.

[fprintf]

Actually I have a very strong foamie plane. I still stand by my statement that any plane lifting 100 feet of rubber is not going to get as high as a plane that only has to lift 100 feet of line.

Austin,
I have a HobbyLobby heavy duty histart and when the wind is blowing I regularly zoom the plane to the point I have fluttered the tail feathers a few times. You may be right that you can't zoom off of this winch. But we haven't given it a chance yet, have we?

[AustinTatious]

thats true, but for 250 bucks Im NOT gonna give it a chance. BTW here is a little experiment to prove you are wrong about the rubber lifting ;-P add a bunch of extra line to your rubber. Steak the rubber down about wher eyou will be launching, run it downfield to a turnaround then back, launch yoru plane... this will use the power of the rubber but you will only be lifting line, you wont launch higher.

[Vince inTX.]

Austin'

You are right about not launching any higher. But you are not entirely right about the reason. Alot of the energy stored in the rubber will be lost due to ground friction i.e. dragging the rubber and "used" string along the ground. It's a trade off.

My biggest concern about this system is the added complexity of that gearing system, and that it is not covered. Seems like blowing dust/sand/grass/tumbleweed can could get in there and gum up the works, That wont happen with a hi start. The elegance of it's simplicity is why it has been the favored method of launch for "solo" fliers for so long.

YMMV

Vince

[schrederman]

Yeah...what Vince said... How's it going, Vince... We're missin' you.

Jack

[Vince inTX.]

I sent you a pm Jack

Vince

[JrcSeller]

Some of us live in colder climates and choose
to not enter the building season as others do
at this time. Rubber doesn't work anymore in
December, so this looks like the CATS-MEOW; our
fun can continue. Looking forward to reading
about the Grasshopper's use wherever... But, worry
about the moisture question as it sits in the
SNOW..

[Hostage-46]

Just how cold does it have to be to see a degradation in hi-start performance?

Dan

[fprintf]

I have found that once temperatures dip into the 40s that the histart doesn't have as much springiness. Once the temp gets into the lower 40s that is the limit of even using it. Below about 40 degrees and you stretch the rubber out and it slowly oozes back to shape. :(

Electric gliders and winches of some sort become the norm during this time of year for any kind of flying, but most just hibernate due to the uncomfortable nature of flying in the cold. I am told some of the best thermal flights can be found during winter when there is partial snow cover. The most difficult part is getting the plane into the air!

[bbreidenbach]

winch should arrive tomorow,they have a ups tracking link at site.jim lewis e-mailed a response to a question-what happens with a line break ? there is a nylon pin/bolt to absorb shock which may break:replace it.i may try using a soft metal pin instead.i was thinking of using a streamer instead of a parachute while launching a slope plane. bungee horizontal style.it will rewind really fast with a constant pull. for snow or wet grass : a mat? a plastic storage box? wd-40 the spring,oil the shaft bearings,(spring is stainless steel) winter thermals can be stong.we have flown with snow on the ground and slope flying in a snow squall is quite an experience. NO MORE BUGS!! good thermal forecast site http://www.drjack.net/BLIPSPOT/index.html also a pic. of dr. jack in his dg-400 . also for a organized links site check out > http://www.westwindsrc.com/Links/index_html?printable=yes&portal_skin=Printable

[JrcSeller]

I agree with Dan, 40-45 seems to be the low range,
and at 35-40 your better off with a kite! What's
this hibernation talk? If you live in this climate you might as well make the most of it; Others here Ice fish (in the open) and have fun.
C'mon grasshopper, be true.


"I'd Rather be Flying"

[Hostage-46]

Oh I'll be going out tomorrow for sure! Weather is beautiful here in Big D

[LWThompson]

Hey Austin,
Are you being sincere or just difficult? I like the small field launching mentioned in the ad. The ability to use this as a high start or bungee is also good. I am noticing cracks in my 1yr old high start, what about yours?

I think BBreiden may be on to something. Winter flying, using it in different setups with different planes, seems like a versatile little grasshopper.

I too will pass on your offer.

[AustinTatious]

I am being sincere. I do see the advantage over Cold weather use. I still cant see how yoru are going to launch the same height and need any less flying area to do it. If the plane comes off at 100 feet, then ther eis 100 feet of line under it. IT has the same amount of energy, therefore, the same amount of pull was required to get it up there. If somone buys one and post how much field they use to launch, the weight/size of the model, and the altitude attained, i will See what a bungee will do and compare results.

[fprintf]

Austin, the way I see it you need at least 100 feet *less* of area to run this winch since it doesn't need a turnaround. Think of the winch as where the line attaches to the histart.

With a histart... you need:
100 feet of tubing
300 feet of line
300 feet of stretching room
-----
700 feet *minimum*

Without any wind I doubt you will get anywhere close to 700 foot launch heights. If you have a LoLo or other altimeter device you could check, but any other method is going to be error prone.

As I was typing this out I think I have figured out what you are getting at. It seems even without the turnaround with a grasshopper you need however much line you spool onto the winch. If you want 700 foot launch heights then you are going to need 700 feet of line and 700 feet from the winch itself.

For those of us up north this winch could be really nice. Then again, that 200+ bucks can buy a really nice electric sailplane setup w/ several battery packs that'll do quite nicely in the cold and not require much field at all.

[AustinTatious]

Ok so i THINK you are begining to see what i am saying. I jsut dont see this device saving you any field length needed for a certain launch height. That all boils down to how effecientl you and your plane are while flying up the launch. It for sure isnt going to save you any room compared to a regular winch using a turnaround.

Check this out... http://www.slnt.org/hl15.htm

If you dont want a bunch of weight, you could jsut have some long leads that you could attach to your car battery. Then you would have a really light unit and a place to sit while you fly hehe. You could play with the drum size and get different speeds and lbs of pull to suit your needs. With a little innovation a simplebacklash preventer could also be built. YOu will have to walk less with a setup like this as well.

[MikeC]

Update on the Grasshopper?

Mike

[bbreidenbach]

mikec , i have been waiting to update because----------------------(is that your final answer!) due to my shortcoming in reading instructions for assembly and some short shipment of parts. they are clarifying some instructions issues.they air-mailed needed and replacement parts, no charge. you get lots of little parts but assembly should'nt be hard. my main problem was the spring is reverse wound in final use . on assembly it's wound same direction . i mis-interpreted this instruction ! there is a blued steel ribbon leader/"weakest link" and nylon screw to protect the mainspring.--- i used this feature fully !! it is now assembled and seems to work. this thing has two speed/torque ranges by changing gear-sets and each range has five settings by altering the inner tow-line spool hub size (six bolts,nylon spacers) my set-up is 150 ft of 8 lb. tension for a 2.5 lb. , 2-meter version. tension >>three times weight of plane and it is a nearly linear pull ! now it's raining and cold--- stay tuned from bruce.

[MikeC]

Thanks Bruce.

Hope it goes well when the weather breaks.

Mike

[paulcarnes]

Originally posted by bbreidenbach
mikec , i have been waiting to update because----------------------( now it's raining and cold--- stay tuned from bruce.

You must be under six feet of snow by now! Theres no way I could stay home with a new piece of equipment like that....or maybe you went out to the field a week ago and haven't come home...:D

[bbreidenbach]

ten launches of a plane with the lowest edf (emotional,debt,factor), a two plus lbs jr-sport aileron ship. about 275>300ft high in a 5mph head wind.it was kiting up pretty well. one launch in zero wind was shaky because i didn't give it a smooth push.you can't throw to quickly as it will overrun the inertia of spring{i was not using the supplied elastic cord) . the last two days were GREAT SLOPE FLY'IN . SUNNY 58 DEGREES. 10 to 20mph winds.we just got access to nice site. one fellow was going pretty radical with his 3-m DG-600. my M60 was chasing every buzzard in range.:cool: but, forecast of rain tommorrow. hopefully i will grasshopper a lighter 2-m ship soon.----------------- i hope you got fly recently!! it's the best x-mas present

[paulcarnes]

Hey, thanks for the report. I got caught up on all the chores and spent most of Saturday at the field. Very poor day for thermals even though it looked good. Its a sad day when I can't get the zagi thl to stay up.

Sounds like the pull of the grasshopper may be a little light for my bigger ships and those downwind launches into the boomer.

[emersunn]

Originally posted by fprintf
I have found that once temperatures dip into the 40s that the histart doesn't have as much springiness. Once the temp gets into the lower 40s that is the limit of even using it. Below about 40 degrees and you stretch the rubber out and it slowly oozes back to shape. :(

Does that mean when it is 110 degrees it has more energy?

[fprintf]

Not necessarily, but I think it does have something to do with the elastic properties of rubber (or any material) decreasing with lower temperatures. I will say it has more energy at 70 degrees than 40 degrees. I am not sure about 110 degrees to 70 degrees. But it would definitely have more energy 110 vs. 40.

[emersunn]

Hmmm,
So to take it further off topic . . . :)
A rubber histart loses elasticity when it gets colder. And I assume it has to lose elasticity if it gets too hot . . . it would melt or break. Soooo . . .

What is the optimal temperature of histart rubber? I do not want an answer like "between 70 and 80 degrees f"

I want an answer like "79.2"

;) This would keep the RCSE hopping for months.

[fprintf]

So.... let's post it to RCSE... :-)

[airHead256]

So what's the punch line?
Will it throw a GL a bit higher than a 2M histart? Easier to setup, use, put away?
Thanks

[John Gallagher]

Originally posted by airHead256
So what's the punch line?
Will it throw a GL a bit higher than a 2M histart? Easier to setup, use, put away?
Thanks

Setup
Carry the device upwind, stake it to the ground?

Use
Pull the line out to wind up the spring. Hook up the glider and let go.

Put away
Unstake and carry

The highstart has an added step of winding the line and rubber onto a spool.
The grasshopper is heavier and bulky.
Will a grasshopper last longer than a highstart? Maybe, if it doesn't rust and get grass and dirt in the mechanism.

There doesn't seem to be much difference.
Oh... there's the cost.

[LWThompson]

The ideal temperature for highstart rubber tubing is: (insert drum roll here).

1.) 72 degrees F.
2.) Nice thermally day, partly cloudy
3.) nice 5mph southerly breeze
4.) partialy shaded (usually above the pilot).

At least that is what I , I mean, mine likes best.

What say you Bruce?

***WARNING WARNING THREADJACK ALERT*****

[aeajr]

Any further field reports on the Grasshopper?

[bbreidenbach]

negatives,:price : sides can flex away from shaft end caps , no carrying handle,some backlash tangles,difficult to change gearing set-up from hand launch to larger type planes.i fashioned a wood base attached to unit.the base has a hand hole,a hole for spike and a brace over unit to hold the gear shaft to the sides. i am launching a two meter approx. 300 ft. (agl) high in eight pound pull mode ( 150' tension with 300' slack deployed ). pluses,: can launch over rough ground that will cut rubber,adaptable for field size.pulls eight pounds at all lengths of pull.

[paulcarnes]

Any further field reports on the Grasshopper?

The ads seem to be gone. Probably smashed on a windshield somewhere.

[Louied]

"Deleted" Sorry

[AustinTatious]

in all honesty, I never saw this contraption as being superior to good old fasion rubber.... The only area I saw where it might be a better choice woudl be in extremly cold conditions. I can Build a realy nice bungee with good rbber that will last years even under horrible conditions such as using over gravle and rocks. I can build about 10 of these for the cost of the grasshopper winch.

[aeajr]

OK, but how well does it work?

What strength of hi-start would you compare it to?

is it more convenient than a hi-start of a winch?

Cold weather use would seem to be an advantage.

[Robert Hoffman]

What ever happened to this post?

Was there ever an outcome?

[WGH]

Don't know but I do see one down side, you have to walk back to the winch to retrieve the chute on every launch, I fly on a short field 300 ft, most of the time I only need to walk 100 ft to retrieve the shoot.