Single Channel Planes?

[Lynn S]

Just checking to see if anyone would like to join me in building and flying a plane with only one servo.... rudder. I know BMatthews is an expert at this and would love to find a few new converts.
This is a wild and crazy(you have to do stuff like zig-zag (S's)to keep level) way of flying a plane, but this how it all started in the 50s.
I am building a Littlest Stick that is 150% of the original size and has a .049 for power. I know this plane does well with a Black Widow and two channels at this size but I'm using the less powerful Baby Bee on this one until I learn how to fly with just rudder. I have the fuse just about finished and hope to have the wing finished this weekend.
Anyone interested in joining in?

[Dereck]

Hi Lynn
I've giving up getting my models oily, but your idea of SC is wild! I (and dozens of others!) flew a Littlest Stik in England back around 1990 - we used car radios as that was the only micro RX going then, a single Futaba 133 micro servo, home made micro nicad and no switch - plug it in, slap on the wing, fly until you thought you ought to quit!

The PeeWee 020 / Littlest Stik combo is wild, but I too had to go one bigger and blew it up to around 36" span with a Baby Bee.

Now the bad bit - never did get it to do better than a screaming half-loop into the ground somewhere behind me! It was frightening, and my clubmates sort of suggested that maybe I'd like to pack this one away, as our field area was so small that the parking area was too close to where this thing kept hitting.

Otherwise, flying with rudder only is a real trip - everyone should try it (once!)

Regards

Dereck
From the electric lot...

[Lynn S]

Dereck,
I just finished framing the 150%LS yesterday, the wing is 31 1/2 inches at the leading edge.I added an extra bay to each wing panel.
Did you do a test glide with your big LS?
From reading an old single channel construction article from the early 60s they tell you that it must glide level enough to make a nice landing when you toss it into the wind? If it goes up or down just adjust the leading edge or trailing edge with shims.
I did one fuse at 175% and it was way too tall and the wings looked huge on paper. I cut that fuse down to make this 150% LS so I didn't waste any balsa. I hope to have it covered and ready this week.
Thanks for the reply. Lynn

[Lynn S]

Here is a picture I made last night.
Notice the vertical stab. It started as a Simple Extra fin from the plans. It looked too tall so I cut it down a half inch. Now it looks like a P-51 tail. I guess I will put some WWII decals on it and some silver monokote.

[Lynn S]

one more picture.

[BMatthews]

But...... but..... but.......

.......that tail!?!?!?!?! IT'S NOT A STIK ANYMORE:eek:

Well, it's on YOUR shoulders if it doesn't know what to do and crashes because of that abomination of a tail.... :D

Dereck, do one for a Speed 400 with ESC! ! ! On your last one you didn't pay attention to the cardinal rule of first time rudder only flying.....

Use WAY more downthrust than even your wildest imagination would suggest and take it out a bit at a time with test flights in between. That way it won't get away from you and smite thee in the back of the noggin.

Or if you cheat and use an ESC with a motor then you can just throttle back or off...

[Lynn S]

Originally posted by BMatthews
But...... but..... but.......

.......that tail!?!?!?!?! IT'S NOT A STIK ANYMORE:eek:

Well, it's on YOUR shoulders if it doesn't know what to do and crashes because of that abomination of a tail.... :D


Well it's not too late to go back to WWI....I guess the P-51 tail is a little out of place.:eek:


With all the downthrust this plane has I kinda wonder if it will fly into the ground. My two channel versions does need some up elevator just after launch, but it doesn't have the incidence built in.

[alligood]

Lynn S - trust me it won't fly into the ground if you build the incidence and downthrust per the plan. In fact, without the downthust I gar-on-tee you it would want to loop.
Fred Reese was a clever man.

Nice bare bones pics - I'm inspired now. I feel like a bit of a cheat,
but I may have to go electric on mine because of my location. I'm asking for forgiveness in advance ;).
Oh heck, the fuse builds so quick maybe I'll do a glow and a sparky!

[BMatthews]

Fin..... :D LOL :D Do what you want Lynn. It's all good.


Trust me on this. It's a lot safer for the model and less stress on your nerves if there is too MUCH downthrust to start with. The worst that'll happen is you get a few high speed descents into the tall grass that kills the engine. Keep taking out a few degrees at a time until it climbs away at the desired angle. The only dangerous point is where it goes out almost dead level. Then you have to try to do this incredibly large turn to bring it back. Or just turn it a little sharper and let it dump into some tall grass or soft bushes if they are handy.

This is a LOT better than a crazy attempt to climb and stall and loop over. The only way to damp such a mad climb is to crank over the rudder and watch the model go 'round and 'round like a whirling dervish while any wind drift takes it further and further downwind because if you even TRY to open up the circle on the side coming into the wind the nose comes up and it tries to do a layed over loop with all the speed it has. Been there, done that, got the pile of rubble to prove it. That's what bought the farm for at least two of my early tries at RC until I got a Galloping Ghost outfit and learned the magic of elevators.

Fly at a field that has tall grass to drive into so it'll kill the engine on these first few tests. Otherwise you can have it zipping all over the field like a little lawnmower. Oh, and did I mention it really, really helps to do your first few flights with only about one minute worth of fuel? It does..... :D

[Lynn S]

Bruce,
You were right the P-51 tail blew. Is this better?
Now I can put some big German crosses on it.

Thanks for all the tips on the single channel. I know they were hard earned with lots of crashed planes. The simple things make a big difference.
I was planning for a one minute flight at first. I hope it is not too wild.
For some reason I have rolls and rolls of Yellow Monokote so I know this one will be yellow too. I may add a red tail on this one.

Here is the new vertical stab enlarged to 160% to give a little more surface area.

[BMatthews]

I know that looks are in the eye of the beholder but that looks SO much better to my eyes.

Actually with that shape it's not a long stetch to see either an iron cross on there or British bars with the name "Sopwith" on the tail....

Yellow? I hope it's at least transparent for the wing.

[crafty1]

I built a rudder only high wing plane once semi scale piper like plane with a mattel single channel and a testors .049, built it real nice, but smashed it real quick. It just kept looping out of control until it hit the ground. now I like the idea of having the elevator and rudder combo.

[BMatthews]

Originally posted by crafty1
I built a rudder only high wing plane once semi scale piper like plane with a mattel single channel and a testors .049, built it real nice, but smashed it real quick. It just kept looping out of control until it hit the ground. now I like the idea of having the elevator and rudder combo.

No guts, no glory.... :D

Bin' there, done that, got the pieces to show for it. It took me over 30 years of flying to finally step up to the extreme challenge of rudder only... and conqueor it.

[alligood]

Hey Lynn S - What's your opinion on shear webs for the 150% LS - needed or not?

[Lynn S]

If this is between the ribs you don't need anything. Just sheet the center section of the wing. I didn't have much luck using ca glue at the leading and trailing edges where the ribs join, so I use Elmer's at those points.

[Lynn S]

Just finished covering with yellow monokote. I spent the better part of Sunday afternoon with the iron crosses..
as you can tell, I'm not the best at doing the wingtips.:o

[Lynn S]

With baby brother LS, or is it daddy LS ?....

[Lynn S]

One more....they are so cute together.

[alligood]

looks great lynn!

[Lynn S]

I did a test glide today in my front yard(with no power). I just gave it a good level throw and it had a nice long glide and nose in at the end from about 2ft above the ground.
I used wood dowels with rubber bands to hold on the rear stab to allow for easy adjustment with shims.... none were needed. I did hang on to the plane too long once and threw it toward the ground...that time I had some shims under the stab, it pulled up about a foot off the ground and flew level.....nice save LS !
It is a different feeling to watch it glide and know pulling back on the stick doesn't help. In fact it did fine considering I couldn't offer any help with landing. It's like playing with one of those foam gliders and adjusting the glide with the tail.
I'm ready to try a powered flight this week and will try to post some pictures of the rudder only LS150 in flight!

[T. Lyttle]

Wow, back to the future! I still have my Ace gear with a few different actuators (servo? oh yeah...), which I have installed in a Guillows-sized SE5. I plan to fly it this spring on the Ace gear; around here, I can still get away with the old frequencies.

I think Goldberg produced the Schoolboy kit, used Ace gear until I bought an EK brick setup, flew very well on either. I found it to be a very forgiving trainer, and found out that it floats long enough for retrieval (Don't Ask!!). True enough, s/c is way more challenging than any other form of r/c, and it is fun to hand a TX over to a multi flier...

[FFFlier]

Dereck,

home made micro nicad? How did you do that?

- Bill

[Lynn S]

YeeeHaaa!!
The rudder-only LS150 (35 inch span Littlest Stick) flew and flew, and flew!
The weather was just perfect today, no wind and 40 deg. temp. Today was the day this yellow bird was going to fly. I went out to the industial park about two miles from my house to have a good open area to fly from. As it turned out, I could have flown from my front yard.
I assumed the Babe Bee would start and didn't try a test run at the house. For some reason it didn't want to run once I was at the site. I didn't want to waste time to find out why and made a quick trip home and pulled the babe bee and put one of my Black Widows in its place..... back to the site and the BW fires up with no problem at all. It could have been the battery since I used a glow driver when I returned.
I didn't know what to expect after launch but it climbed out and started gaining altitude very quickly. The engine did me a favor and quit after about a minute but that was good because I needed more rudder to control it. The glide in was wonderful, just made a gentle circle then straight for the final and landing.
I adjusted the rudder for maximum throw and was ready for the next flight. I had the engine too lean on the first run and that caused it to die early. The second flight was a WILD ride when the BW cleared itself in a loop and really started to scream! It was all I could do to kill the tendency to loop with a lot of holding the rudder from side to side.
I'm still in the learning stage... the plane is supposed to climb. Thanks to the pointers given to me by Bruce Matthews I knew somewhat what to do. ....when the engine dies....things go from wild ......to mild and I can land almost at my feet...... Third flight I managed to do a rudder roll ,then roll it into a dive and watch it loop when the stick was released! It even flew inverted for a few seconds, but it did that on its own!
I had to get some pictures so I went home and got my son to come back with me and take as many as he could. That only turned out to be two pictures before the batteries in the camera died.
I made two more flights and decided to try some 3/32 balsa shims under the trailing edge of the wing on the last flight. That really helped and gave it a much more level flight and not tend to loop as much.
It is really a blast knowing you are flying with no elevator and can still do a pretty good job of flying the plane!..... well I guess the plane is doing a lot of the flying by itself.. all I can do is make it turn.
This was fun!
Here are the two pictures, the second one is the climb-out after launch.

EDIT: Nothing was wrong with the babe bee, just a bad connection to the battery. I have it back on the plane now and ran it a few times in the garage. It should do fine and fly the plane a little slower.

[Lynn S]

Just in case you wondered about the street picture. It is not a highway and is a dead-end street. There is almost no traffic on the weekends.
Here is the climb-out picture....

[Gonnacrash]

Lynn,
I flew SC late '60's or early '70's. About 50" W/S or so with a "PIXIE" system.. 1 click left...two clicks right and probably had over 200 hours.. still have the wing, radio (no-op). Many hours of FUN !
Don-Basehor, Ks

[Lynn S]

Don,
I had one of those escapement radios made by Babcock and put it in a Goldberg Jr. Falcon. The radio quit working before I flew it and Babcock was out of business. I don't remember what happened to the Jr. Falcon. I had no idea what I was buying when I bought a plane, radio and Enya .15 from the guy that sold it to me. It turned out to be a rip-off.This was around 1967. I still have the Enya .15- Lynn

[Lynn S]

Second day out with the RO!

The wind was calm the day after Christmas so I decided to give the rudder only LS150 another try.
This time out I used the Babe Bee for power..as I had orginally planned. This is a new engine and it seems to have about the same power as the Black Widow. It really pulls the 6x3 Master Airscrew well and holds its tune for peak rpm.This one has the four slits for exhaust but it sounds just as loud as the Black Widow. It really hauls the LS150 around.!!
I was brave enough to fly from my front yard this time. I have about 15 acres to fly over counting the neighbors yards. It was still wanting to loop a lot, so on the second flight I added a 3/32 balsa shim under the trailing edge of the wing. This made a big difference in the way it flew. It was more like flying a normal r/c plane. I don't think anyone could tell that it had no elevator. I could fly around the field in a figure eight pattern or just circle around the field. It would still loop but only from a dive to build speed. The glide-in and landings are perfect. I just set up a large box pattern and let it do the rest. The landings are usually just as good as my plane that has elevator. So now I have a choice, I can leave the wing shim out for a wild flight with lots of stunts, or put the shim in for a normal low stress flight. I will try a thinner shim to see if I get a happy medium between the two.
This has been such a joy to see this plane do so well with nothing but rudder control. Out of ten flights, every one has been outstanding.
If anyone is interested in joining the fun, just send me a PM.
Lynn

[Lynn S]

Here is a picture of the "rudder only" wonder.:D

specs:

This is a 150% size of the original Littlest Stick by Fred Reese
Wingspan- 35 inches, standard is 30 inches for this size
Wing area- 245 sq inches
Weight- 17 ozs.
Engine- Cox .049 Babe Bee, with a Master Airscrew 6x3 prop

Radio- Futaba 2 ch, with one 3101 micro servo for Rudder
250 mha nicad rx battery.

If anyone wants a copy of the original "Littlest Stick" plans,(20 inch wingspan) the plans and construction article can be downloaded from this site:

http://my.pclink.com/~dfritzke/

To make the LS150 size (30 inch wingspan)just cut out the parts from the plans and enlarge them on a copy machine set at 150%. Use 3/32 inch balsa sheet and 1/4x1/4 inch stick balsa for the wing spars.

[Lynn S]

I just wanted to show off my original size(20 inch wingspan) Littlest Stick that I converted to electric. The cox TD .010 engine was sold after not being very successful in this plane. I guess my radio gear was too heavy. I had a parkflyer radio and flight gear out of a SkyVector and just installed it in this plane to see if it would fly.
Well today I was able to test glide and FLY It! There was a slight wind but it was able to do quite well!! This plane has Rudder and Motor control only like the SkyVector. I made two flights of about 5 minutes total and the battery still had 4 minutes of run time left.
This is not an easy plane to fly, but can be very aerobatic after the speed has built up.
I built this plane a year ago and this was the first time I was able to control it from launch to landing.:)

Edit: The second day out was also very successful! I must have had it up to around 200 ft. It's hard to tell because of the small size. I made one flight that lasted 10 minutes! and had about one minute reserve left in the battery. Another nice landing with power. I couldn't do that with the little TD .010 engine :)

[Lynn S]

I'm not sure what motor this is. Does anyone have any idea what size it is? 180?
I've got a 4 amp. speed 280 ordered for it and a Wingo prop from Hobby Lobby.:)

Edit: I pulled the stock sky vector prop off and put the Wingo prop on it....this increased the plane's speed a lot! I didn't have to coax it along after launch, it climbed rapidly. It really moves now, the new prop cut about 2 minutes off the run time....not a bad trade though, I'll take the extra speed.:D

Edit: Well the Wingo prop is not a good idea for this motor. It is over proped and gets very hot. I will have to try a different motor.

[Lynn S]

I would like to bring this post back to the top for those who haven't seen or know about Rudder Only flying. The Littlest Stick does well as it was originally designed to be Rudder Only. The 150% 1/2 A version (30 to 35 inch wingspan)is even better in my opinion.
It's really very easy to fly once you get the main idea that going straight will climb and giving rudder will bring the nose down. A shim can be added under the trailing edge to make it climb less. Going into a spiral dive with full rudder turns the plane into a looping, crazed, demon.....well not a demon, but a wild ride nevertheless. :)

[TLyttle]

Wheeeee!!! When Ace s/c was popular, part of their ads showed how to do some basic aerobatics, and these were also (I think) included in the instructions. I know it took me some time to figure out how the system was managed (not that bright), but after a while, creditable loops, Immelmanns, split-arse, stall turns, etc, were mastered. The fun started when some "multi" guy would show up and criticise: "hey, do better", hand him the tx and watch him bend the stick looking for up elevator.

Single channel means 2 things: planning ahead, and knowing basic aerodynamics. Get those down, and it is truly a blast...

[Lynn S]

TLyttle, glad to see your reply....
The plane that got me on to R/O was the little Estes Sky Ranger that I bought at walmart. It's pretty marginal and only flies for a minute or two, but enough to learn how the basic system works. After building the 150% Littlest Stick as a rudder/ elevator plane I decided to see how it worked the way it was designed to be in the first place. It is a credit to Fred Reese that it does so well. Once you get over the fear that it won't fly without elevator, it's really very easy. With a shim under the trailing edge it is as mild as any trainer. :)

[TLyttle]

Absolutely right. I understand that Reese is dead now, but many of his designs live on, products of a guy that saw the possibilities of the system (I still have his Cessna 150 on my "to build" list, now tht Ace wings are available again). I remember some guys adding elevator, giving the system "galloping ghost" capabilities (you have to see it to believe it!), but I stuck to Ace's stuff, and still have a Stomper as well as a couple of other actuators.
Best example of the attraction of the Ace was my buddy and mentor: he was a freeflighter, and a building genius, and added a standard actuator to his DH9 (Aeromodeller f/f plan), with minimal weight penalty (2oz?). We showed up at an "Open House" for the local club with this, replete with an ounce of diesel fuel to feed his Mills. He put in a very realistic flight, with loops and stall turns. When he landed, the crowd was 3 deep around the model (it has barely stopped rolling!), wondering why the rudder had gone nuts... Walt was eventually able to get to the model to switch off the rx, and spent the rest of the afternoon answering questions! No more flights! Hilarious...

[Lynn S]

One of my first radios was a "galloping ghost" that I ordered from Hobby Lobby in the late 60s. I had no idea what galloping ghost meant until I turned the thing on. Some how it had rudder, elevator, and throttle. I built a Sterling Tri Pacer kit(with a.19) and put the galloping ghost in it. The plane was so heavy it wouldn't get off the ground (runway)
I don't have any idea what happened to that radio or plane. I think my mom got in a house cleaning mood while I was away at college and a lot of my stuff was thrown away.
The thing I prized the most was a Cox powered Mercedes open wheeled racer, and it was thrown away too. :(

[BMatthews]

....Walt was eventually able to get to the ....

As in Walt Winberg by any chance? If so then the intrest in the radio would soon have changed to intrest in how nicely built it was. It sure sounds like his sort of model. Small Scale, "rudder only" simplicity and diesel powered... :cool:

[rodair]

Hie all, I would love to participate into this furom, Lynn provide wiith a R/O that came from a toy, soon it will wit the air as an electic power plane and R/O contol only.
My first pane that I succeed to fly was (actually 2 off) a rudder only ""dick's dream" powered by a COX .020 wiith an Ace controler with a baby adams actuator, it went OOS for some reason(s) the second one was powered by similar engine by I bougth a Mattel R/C from AHC at dicount, I lost it too, I will try to re-do the drawing of this one if your interested. using Lynn system but to go electic this one had to go to small weiight loss program first, more to come ....keep on flying!
Later,
Roger

[Lynn S]

Hi Roger, Yes, the Estes "toy" radio sparked my interest in rudder only flying. The basic flying skills are the same.
I went from that little plane to the Littlest Stick which is also a small plane in the original size. I have two version of this plane as you can see in this thread. A 34 inch wingspan .049 cox powered and the original 20 inch now with a 180 electric motor.
Let us know about your plane and post pictures if you can.

[TLyttle]

Yup, BMatthews, one and the same. Clearly we must have crossed trails in the past; Walt, Pete Groves, myself and others started the Sea Island club in ~1966. To me, Walt was the ultimate builder: rubber, c/l, r/c, blimps, anything. Walt and I built a Chanute-style hang glider, which now (apparently) hangs in the Air Museum in Victoria. Taken too early, he was a huge inspiration to me, and to the kids in the club who were exposed to his wonderful work ethic and his incredible attention to detail with no weight gain. some of his designs were published in Model Builder, as were photos of some of his incredible models.

The DH9 was one of the few models that he exposed to the general r/c community; they not only did not really understand s/c, they understood diesels not at all. For low-speed r/c, there is no logical substitute: I have used diesels (because of Walt's influence) for 30-odd years now, and I find that the goo is worth the advantages offered by that form of power. Only electric is able to replace diesels in my models, and the leaps in technology are dazzling: remember the nicads in the Ace sets? Woo, new technology!

E-mail me if you want to continue this, I got lots of memories of that era, we'll see if we really know each other!

[rodair]

Lynn and all,
I will try to post a picture of the before and after the operation..of the RX toy but for some reason, I can' t upload them (too big?) :confused:
I will try ro reduce it again!
Roger

[BMatthews]

deleted by BMatthews

[rodair]

BMatthews,
I need your help here, can you send an e-mail me please?
rodair@3web.net
I am working on something and only you may have the answer...or you can help!
Thanks in advance,
Roger B.

[rodair]

Lynn,
Here is the Sky Ranger's receiver before the operations,
total weight 42 gr, pretty heavy...

[rodair]

Lynn, (suite)
this one went into a "Major" operation here...
Total lost weigt 33 gr,!...
A new actuator was concept/design/built for it, and sounds good the only things left to do is to find a simple way to keep the rudder center, also a small trim tab will have to be added if plane construction isn't true or build in design is not providing enough stability, another is range check!
According to the original spec's I should be good for 300' its s/b enough for a small light plane with low wing loading... any suggestion for a model here?, I might give a try to my own concept/design also. Power for this one will be either the original button cells (it works!) or a more realiable small Ni-Cd's set!
The pulse rate is done manually here from the TX, and it work as the old days as a bang/bang type! Anyone here with info's about the galloping ghost linkage? I may need to add a bit of stab in turns?
So more to come!
Please comments are welcome!
Roger B.

[TLyttle]

GG has to do with linkage and pulse rate: there is a link to the elevator, and the tx is set up to modify the pulse rate. I think that, by speeding up the pulse rate, the elevator is biased "up", slowing it down biases the elevator "down"... I think. The "galloping ghost" has to do with the slow motion of the elevator at slow pulse rate, which gives it a definite gallop on its trajectory. I've only seen it a couple of times, and have never tried it myself, so I may have this arse about face.

BTW, BMathews, please e-mail me at kpa@img.net, I am not smart enough to figger out the messaging system!

[rodair]

All,
Wasn't there before a kind of mechanical device only (nothing to do with pulse rate of the TX) to help control the stab surface from one channel?
I remember I saw something about this but where?...again I have some brain backfire?
Roger B.

[BMatthews]

There was a mechanical mixing device but it worked hand in hand with the transmitter. The TX stick controlled the duty cycle for rudder and the pulse rate for elevator. The actualtor mixed it all together. At neutral rudder the elevator is full down, at full rudder the elevator had some up added. Not enough to make a climbing circle but enough to prevent as hard a spiral dive as you would get with no mix. In operation the motor did not traverse far enough to get full elevator at neutral pulse rate. Then when the pulse slowed down you would get more up than down and the average was some up elevator. At full down the pulse rate sped up so the traverse was very slight and the elevator would not cycle past neutral so the average was down. At any point the rudder would still operate but with rudder control you got less down control and more up control.

If this is still all greek to ya I can do a drawing.

BTW, Terry got the source of the "Galloping" spot on. The early servos they used did not traverse fast enough to be able to use a high enough pulse rate to prevent the model from reacting to the continuous motion. WIth the slow rate came some tail wagging that looked sort of like a horse rider trotting along. And since there was no horse the "Ghost" was added in. The model didnt' care, it just continued along in a straight line with the tail dancing around and reacting to the average controls. But it does bring up a good point that the pulse RATE needs to be very adjustable so it can be set to provide the proper rate for each actuator. There was no standard rate frequency for neutral.

[rodair]

Matt,
if I understand here, properly, the fast pulse cycle=less deviation of the rudder
and the slow pulse cycle=more deviation of the rudder
The stab is attach to the rudder by a "link" so @ neutral position it would be a bit down. Is that it? or similar?
Roger B.

[TLyttle]

Different ways of saying the same thing. I can't remember which one of you guys had the GG setup at the Main St park, but that was the first time I had seen GG, and I remember the gallop to be vertical rather than yaw (I'm gettin old, so it might be my memory!). The pulse rate would be fast enough one way so that the elevator moved very little, but very visibly slow in the other, generating the characteristic gallop.

As far as other forms of s/c, I think I have diagrams around for what they called "cascaded escapements". Rube Goldberg had a hand in this system I am sure, but the ability to count reliably and repeatedly was mandatory for a safe flight. In those days, ALL r/c stuff was s/c, and linkage was the only answer. Go for that, if you are adept to mechanical puzzles! "Lessee, two pulses should give me low throttle, oops, that must have been 5 pulses, now how many for up elevator... uh... too late. Bring the broom..."

[boberos]

To Rodair - re post 46 & 48,

Pulse rate variation is a must for elevator control. Hi pulse gives down elevator. Ie. not much movement. Low pulse give up & sometimes a little gallop.

There are various mechanical mixers to do the job simply, at the rear of the plane. your old Ace or Mattel wont do the job as they have no elevator stick . Just R.O.

See 'Model Aviation' Oct 2003 for pictures of 3 or 4 of them. All do the same job but with different mechanisms. Sorry I don't have a scanner. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to provide pics.

These units work best on small models.

Good luck,
Bob Gardner

[BMatthews]

Matt,
if I understand here, properly, the fast pulse cycle=less deviation of the rudder and the slow pulse cycle=more deviation of the rudder
The stab is attach to the rudder by a "link" so @ neutral position it would be a bit down. Is that it? or similar?
Roger B.

Exactly.

With the Rand LR3 actuator and a few other motorized actuators the mixing was done at the actuator and pushrods went back to the tail. These motorized actuators all used a spring to return the controls to neutral rather than relying on the airflow.

[rodair]

Matt,
thank you, I also saw in MAN plans section a plane call "Multiwiz" where its claim that the designer use a "I beleive a mechanical system" to drive the rudder and stab from one servo. does anyone kave a picture or informations about this plane?
Roger B.

[BMatthews]

Roger, if you can set up a more powerful motor actuator or can use a stronger magnetic actualtor then you can make your own Galloping Ghost. The motor actualtor is best as you really need to work with the transit time of the actuator and the pure magnetic types are just too fast. Adding a weight to slow the acceleration can help with that.

Run the rudder pushrod as per normal but add a control horn to the rudder and elevator and a link wire. Set the link length so with the rudder in the center the elevator is down at about a 10 degree angle. You'll also require a light elastic or spring to return the rudder to center with no power in the system. It needs to be said that there must be absolutley NO binding in the whole system. Everything should be floppy loose so that the light elastic can return it all to center. Set the link so that about 40 degrees of rudder gives about 25 degrees of up elevator. Now start the system and set the pulse rate such that the rudder transits either side of neutral to pull up the elevator to 10 degrees up at neutral stick. Faster rate for full down should be fast enough that the elevator stays below neutral. Slow rate should cycle the system so the rudder reaches the 40 degree angle. Using fulll up and full rudder often creates some interesting activity. You'll have to limit it so that can't cause problems.

Now that I think about all this there is no reason you can't make your own GG actuator from a modern servo. To do so remove the amp and wire up the motor terminals to the output from the GG capable reciever. The rudder pushrod comes off the arms next to the case sides and the elevator would come off the rear hole at the end of the case. The centering spring would come off the hole to the front of the case. You would have to juggle a few inner gears to reduce the overall gear ratio to about 1/2 to 1/4 of the existing amount so that the return spring would be able to center the system.

With such a pushrod scheme the elevator control horn MUST be on the upper surface of the elevator so that the arc of the output wheel or arms tends to pull the elevator UP as the arc moves to one side.

[rodair]

Matt,
I am reading and did it again and again, it remember me my first Ace kit when me and my mother was looking at me througout the window ....it did flew and desapear for no one to be seen.
Sure I will read it again and again I am a bit nostalgic about these beleive me.
If you are sure that your sayimg, I would love to send you one, I use a N45 magnet between almost no resintance coils, after all its part of our hobby, If you still have the gear to fit this one I will try to send you one plz just e-mail me or pm. your snail mail..
Roger B.

[BMatthews]

I appreciate the offer Roger but my galloping ghost and pulse days are behind me. I've still got the gear but it stopped working about 2 years ago and I really don't want to bother fixing it just so I can fly my one remaining pulse rudder model. With the new and super light parkflyer gear available it's far easier to just put in some new gear.

Watch this space and I'll see if I can't take some pics of the old stuff for you to reminice over.

[clipclop]

I found this drawing off a gg actuator ,Anyone got a construction drawing of a rubber escapement ?
Stewart

[rodair]

Thanks Stewart!
A picture is a thouswan words they say!
I will have a good look at it.
Roger B.

[clipclop]

Roger,
The actuator is I think for single channel -ie pulsed rudder with elevator up on turns .
Lots info on old Ace gear here:- http://lazygator.n4jsb.net/acerc.html
Stewart

[BMatthews]

Great pic find. This is it exactly. But note that with the elevator pushrod as shown the control horn would have to be on the bottom of the stab. If the pushrods came off the other side of the actuator then the control horn could be on the top. No simple switch reversal in THOSE days ! ! !

Clipclop, the one shown there will work for the proper GG operation. And yes you DO get some up elevator when you use rudder. That side effect is inbuilt to all the GG arrangements. But the up elevator was never enough to totally counter the nose down spiral tendency of the model so you could still fly it as if it was "normal" separate controls.

[clipclop]

BMatthews ,
You wouldnt be able to point me to diagrams of the rand GG actuators , I have read about them but never had the chance to see how they worked .
Anyone have drawings of the Rand GG 2 and 3 ch actuators ?
Stewart

[boberos]

RAND MOTORIZED ACTUATORS (1966 - 1970) FOR PULSE PROPORTIONAL RADIO SYSTEMS

HR 1
Black frame - short
Red plastic rudder plate with short or long slot.
2.4 volt Mitsumi motor for 4.8 volt centre tapped battery pack
Some had 2 capacitors & 2 chokes soldered directly to motor; later ones had small circuit board
Sometimes used for elevator with rate decoder systems along with HR 2 for rudder & throttle

HR 2
Black frame - long
Red plastic rudder plate with long slot only
Gear segment & arm for trimmable throttle
2.4 volt Mitsumi motor for 4.8 volt centre tapped battery pack
Some had 2 capacitors & 2 chokes soldered directly to motor; later ones had small circuit board

LR 3
Black frame - long
Red plastic rudder plate with long slot only
White gear segment & red arm for trimmable throttle
Flat red plastic elevator plate - kite shaped
2.4 volt Mitsumi motor for 4.8 volt centre tapped battery pack
Some had 2 capacitors & 2 chokes soldered directly to motor; later ones had small circuit board

GG Pak Actuator
Red frame - long with protected area for switcher circuit
Red plastic rudder plate with long slot only
White delrin plastic output gear thicker (0.082")
Gear segment & arm for trimmable throttle
Flat red plastic elevator plate - kite shaped
3.6 volt Mitsumi motor for 3.6 volt battery pack
6 transistor switcher circuit built in to eliminate centre tapped battery pack
Noise suppression circuit had different circuit board with 2 capacitors only & no chokes.

GG Pak Actuator - Special
As above but without switcher circuit.
Same noise suppression as LR 3
This actuator sold to Min - X who added the switcher to the Min - X SH 1R relayless receiver


Notes:
1) Some early actuators may have had plastic pinion gears on the motor that cracked easily. Later ones used brass.
2) The 2.4 volt actuators require a centre tapped battery pack unless a switcher & 1.8 ohm dropping resistor are added. Numerous brands of switchers are/were used. I.e. Ace, Controlaire, Marks, Rand # 6070.
3) Almost all throttle segment gears are stress cracked today (35 years later) rendering throttle control useless, but can easily be repaired with 2 turns of very fine copper or brass wire
4) Centering springs appear to have considerable wire diameter variation. 0.008" dia. guitar string can be hand wound for centering springs.



Bob Gardner
Revised May 8, 2003

[clipclop]

Bob.
Thanks great info any picturs or drawings ?
Stewart

[rodair]

to be honnest, jeess it's quite complex~ HR1 or 2????~~~
sorry . they say a picture is a 1000 words, fo you think you can post one for us to see?
Roger B.

[boberos]

Hi Guys,
I have all these components but sorry no digital camera or scanner at this time.
These things are not that rare. Someone should be able to show you pics.
If I get a scanner I will provide pics from old mags.

Good luck,
Bob G

[RBSHOOKS]

Gentlmen, my first RC was a single channel pulse, it was a Mini-Mambo which was a 1950'S free flight. a Futaba Single Channel Pulse rudder only, and I was able to keep it on the local ball field. The little plane had a 36" W/S and flew quite well as a FFso with a little help with a rudder control and a .049 Baby Bee it would cruise about three minutes and then a dead stick landing. One push on the button Right Turn, two push Left Turn, and three back to Nuetral. To keep it from getting too high you would do a series of "S" turns. Years later when Kraft came out with the mini-servos I converted it to three channel , R,E and Engine Speed Control. I still have the plane and it is in perfect condition. I have been thinking of changing it to an electric W/Rudder only and speed control. Thanks for your time Sincerely Roger B. Smith AMA 91675

[Lynn S]

Roger,
Your Mini-Mambo would be much like my .049 size(35 inch wingspan) Littlest Stick as mentioned at the top of this thread. I did an electric conversion of the original .010 size (19.5 inch wingspan) and it worked very well as an electric. Adding motor control will allow you adjust the climb and not have to fly the S turns. You just guide it like a normal r/c plane. :)

[Tony Oliver]

This is a slightly different approach - I built this Lightning in 1968. It's powered by a Frog 150 (1.5cc) diesel. Rubber driven compound escapement on rudder only but with no throttle control. The prop isn't on at the moment the photo was taken as I had some doubts about it so took it up for a slope soaring test on a very windy day to try it out.

It flew reasonably well for a season, but was a bit of a handful when the engine stopped on running out of fuel - single channel's biggest problem. It went into trussed chicken mode and getting it onto the runway at the right attitude (on it's wheels) was a bit of a hit-and-miss affair.

I didn't build another, so that says volumes!

Tony

[Lynn S]

That's not like any R/O I have seen, and I thought flying a simple stick plane was a challenge. Good work to fly it rudder only!

[BMatthews]

Well since no one else seems to be able to find any pics....

I would have done this sooner but my bench was too messy to even think about doing any pics. Today I cleaned..... :eek:

So the first pic is the whole durn GG family that I own. Both of these sets date back to the 60's. The gear along the front row are from left to right, The Ace Adams Baby dual magnet, the Rand LR-3, a Citizenship SSH reciever and a custom made (by your's truly back in his teens) rudder and elevator only baby GG unit. The black unit sitting in the demonstrator mock up is the Controlaire answer to the Rand. That's the one that taught me to fly RC.

In the second shot you see the Rand close up. This is the LR-3 model that was used for rudder, elevator and throttle. The rudder outputs are off the side holes of the triangular top plate. And you can see the drive pin coming up through the forward apex. That same drive pin drives the sliding coffin shaped plate just under the rudder triangle. You can see the arc in the wide part of the coffin that the drive pin passes up through. That arc forces the coffin to slide back and forth. You can see one of the two center line slots that keeps the coffin in place but let's it slide back and forth. The arm sticking out is the throttle arm. That arm is connected directly to the motor via a regular set of reduction gears. In operation this arm jiggles back and forth as the motor runs first one way than the other in response to the power polarity being reversed in time with the pulsing. When the reciever saw full on or full off signal it passed the respective polarity to the motor
and the actuator would cycle through past the normal throw. This cycled the throttle arm a step in the right direction. In practice there are 6 throttle positions. It ain't full propo! Now some of you may be asking what the controls are doing during this throttle action since the drive pin is going mad. Yep, during the second or two it took to cycle the throttle you get neutral rudder and MORE than full up elevator. Various methods were used to control these antics. Tight pylon turns or dive and pulse, dive and pulse for each position as required. Or if it was high enough just let it loop or stall. I never got to use the throttle.

The final pic is the Controlair actuator. The L arm is the rudder. No ability to reverse in this case by just moving the pushrod. The brass eye on the gear wheel is the elevator. This one required me to mount the control horn on the upper side of the elevator. The Rand is the opposite and required the horn to be on the bottom. There is throttle as well on this one. The elevator wheel is connected to the brass worm on the other side of the frame and that moved the gear segment you can see there. The throttle hooked to that output.

So there you have it. Now you can be as confused as I was.... :D

[Lynn S]

Bruce, You have just taken me back to 1967 with that Red LR3 with my first radio. I ordered it from Hobby Lobby and it was a Super Sport radio made in the US. I can still hear, the click, click, click, sound made by the throttle arm when it moved.
I had no idea what galloping ghost was until I turned it on. I installed it on a Sterling Tri Pacer which never flew. I had not reached the build and crash stage yet. It was just build and watch it run around on the pavement.
If I knew then what I know now, I'm sure it would have been a lot fun to fly with. :)

[BobHH]

Yep, I have a Minnie Mambo with a Ace single channel pulser in it. I had it out at the Vintage RC Society flyin this weekend. Also flew my Wee Stick single channel Mattel and Ace pulser Page Boy. Had a great time. Lots of history and vintage stuff there. Hope to see you guys next year!!!

Bob Harris
Early RC Models
www.earlyrcmodels.com

[rodair]

Matt,
I read and read and read, your efforts are well appreciate here, I can see that you put these musuem items in set up...I may have to ask more questions soon, I hope there still in setup..it would be appreciate that like the the black one to have close up in full deflection one side then the other side..I will try to lighten the bottom picture and read it again.. Thanks, sorry I was away for a while.
Roger B.

[Chas]

These things were all we could get when we were trying to afford radio at modern prices approaching $1,000.
The typical Rand LR3 with a superhet pulser Tx and Relay Rx would cost you four week's wages and weigh 12 ozs if the relay needed a separate battery, as invariably it did. Throttle "control" entailed a loss of all other functions while the dang thing cycled through woofter neutrals and there was a bit of "up" thrown in for good measure - you could always tell the GG throttle-down, waffling meandering noseup pitch with a decrease in engine revs just when you don't need it! Now a three-function digital with surgically precise servos costs less than the engine.

[Lynn S]

Chas, It seems like I paid around $70 for the Super Sport GG system and I don't know how I scraped up that much cash back then. Like all of my childhood Cox toys, it was all thrown away when I went off to college.

[Chas]

Lynn,
Hard-won aviation! I think they should factor these things in to the cost of a College education, ie. all the precious stuff that gets turfed when you start. I remember the lost treasures more acutely than the education I received! - like you said, you can still hear the click of the Rand, but do you still remember who wrote "Ulysses"?

This subject of costs make me feel great about the hobby today. In 1967 a Kraft KP6 with four servos cost 260 Sterling, when the average adult wage was about 25 Sterling; ergo, a nice four-function outfit would cost you ten weeks wages. What's that today....?

This Phleet GG system was super-regen, as I recall, and the Tx needed dry batteries - you will see the price at forty-two pounds-ten-shillings, plus three-pounds-five for airborne DEAC (Deutsche Elektrische Akku Co.!!) so we're only talking a couple of week's work for this set! So, today, only about a grand - form an orderly line!!
Verily it was said by a contemporary politician, "you never had it so good.". :eek:

I always think about this when switching on my superhet, six-ounce, ultra-reliable, simultaneous four-function digital proportional outfit, which I bought with a day's pay.

[rodair]

Any one here with pictures of rubber powered escapments?
I would love do much to have one...what was the resstance in Ohms in these?
Roger B.

[Chas]

Roger, The resistance varied with make. The Babcocks were at the low end, about 7 ohms, whereas all of the Elmics were 11-12 ohms. Bonners 8, Citizen-Ship 9. This made the Elmics better for small Rx outputs (like the Otarions).

Sorry these piccies are poor, but they should give a reasonable idea of why we don't bother any more! At least posting "Esc" may get a few of the electric guys here on Search, and the Single Channel era may yet be reborn!

Some escapements were clockwork, but they settled upon rubber drive (usually 3/16ths) as the best. Sequentials were very fast. They pulled about 300 mA when on control "hold".

I flew a "Pal Joey" on rudder and elevator using the attached servo method; this enabled the use of the original "torque rod" rudder coupling at the rear end, and with an internal elevator horn and film hinging you couldn't tell it from the single channel version. Weight was 22 ozs., exactly as Bill Winter's - God bless you Bill.

I also came across a nifty conversion of an electric motor (old "Mighty Midget") into a magnetic actuator, for "manual pulse" proportional, if anyone's interested.

[Chas]

The servo mounts are not railroad sleepers as they appear on my drawing, 3/16ths x 1/4 balsa is fine for micro servos. Works!

[Tony Oliver]

Ah, the memories!

Chas, you've done it again! I just had to dig through a lot of old stuff (papers) and came up with all sorts of 60s details - wiring of Orbit, F&M Midas - and Bonner Transmite servos - the 1/2 building brick 1st generation of transistorised servos. I even came across a complete wiring harness of escapements etc.

[Chas]

Watch this nostalgia thing Tony, you'll be fitting acetylene headlights to your Ferrari before long!! :eek:
Yes they were experimenters in those days - thought nothing of knocking up a new escapement pawl out of carved Araldite! "Bought Cakes" was my school nickname.
All the best Tony
Cheers
Chas

[Chas]

The propo soarer was damaged second flight - the Pal Joey did about sixty before being sold pristine!

[Chas]

This one isn't mine but I did fly one, a terrific "fast and level" single channeler. Called "Sawdust" it's an early Chris Foss design, the plan is still available. The nose section is an indication of why a (hidden) elevator servo is a good idea. With modern equipment the weight is about the same, and you don't need to use the elevator in flight if you want to be a purist - just save it for emergencies. :o

[Tony Oliver]

First pic is two compound escapements

A is the rotary output as in Chas' post, B is a push-pull output. Both rubber driven. Resistance is 12 ohms

C is another compound, but known as the compact for obvious reasons. This one is 15 ohms.

D is a sequential one which operated from the 'quick blip' function on the compounds. This could operate engine (fast, medium and slow the back to medium then fast....)

The final pic is of a winder for the 'top end' model.

[Tony Oliver]

Chas, believe it or not, my first bike (an old, second hand machine for learning on ) actually had an acetylene lamp on it. However the local chemist - lived 4 doors down from us, and was a superb model engineer - wouldn't let me have any calcium carbide to get it working. Just as well really!

[Chas]

Cor Tony you were Posh - the Elmic winder!! Of course most of us had ex-rubber hand drills nicked from our Dad's toolboxes!
What charming Jules Verne gadgets we had to contend with eh. Oh Tony, sorry the Elmic Compact was a later development, and you're right the resistance was appreciably higher than the earlier range which I was using. The resistance was higher to buying it too, at three quid!!
I have a stack of single-channel plans - Tyro, Go-Jet, Sawdust, Pal Joey, you name it. They're all getting an airing tonight! I'll post a little hot number which should be perfect for electric too ... the lost "Week-Ender" from the same pen as the Soarcerer above. By the way does anyone know where Dave Hughes is now???
Aye, lad...pass the Rubber Solution.
Chas

[Chas]

This one has plenty of wing and could be built easily to 16ozs TOW. Get rid of that hideous "tailplane-on-the-bottom" fad though? Yeerrugghh.

My fingers are itchin'... ;)

[BMatthews]

Yep, you try to tell that to the youth of today and they just won't believe ya!

(hope I quoted that right :D )

Chas, I think you must be older than me with a collection of stuff like that.

[Tony Oliver]

Chas, Here are two photos recovered from the boxes of colour slides from the dim and distant past (1960s).

The first is, I think, the most lethal of single channel models, the Bazz Bomb.
This was the first rudder-only design I saw which at a high enough speed, would do an axial roll. A real hot performer, it would do enormous loops. barrel rolls and still be able to do a fair glide for landing. Note the tailplane under the fuselage! (I'd forgotten about them until reminded by this thread) It's not my model and I haven't any other details. At the time, I was flying a 'Timber'.

The second is my own design which was greatly affected by Model Airplane News, Flying Models (I had both imported on subscription by my local newsagent) and Ken Willard's designs in particular. 50 inch wingspan, single channel using the gear in the earlier posts - Elmic Compact escapement and the sequential one (can't remember it's name) for the Veco19 with throttle carb and exhaust restrictor. I still have the transmitter (138 volts) and posted pics of its innards a while ago.

Look at the small amount of gear we used to need. I took that lot from home to Thornaby airfield on my bike - about 10 miles - in a record 40minutes.

As already said "Ee, lad, they don't know they're born nowadays"

[Tony Oliver]

Looking at the larger pic, I realise the fuel bottle is Nitrex 15 - that fuel was expensive stuff!

[Lynn S]

Chas,
The Week Ender looks great. How about sending that to Dave Fritzke and let him add that to his website to download

http://my.pclink.com/~dfritzke

If you haven't downloaded the Littlest Stick yet its well worth the short time it takes to build it. I build it at 150% size with a cox .049 babe bee. This is a fine plane for Rudder Only.

[Chas]

Tony,
Wonderfully evocative shots, thanks! That 40 mins on the bike wouldn't be so remarkable on Nitrex 15 fumes - ("Now available in 2 oz Cans") - via the "Yorkshire Dragoon" perhaps?? I used to fly at Croft aerodrome just South of Darlington, before it was a racetrack (although it was used for other fast and dangerous pursuits!), and always had to debrief at the "Comet" pub on the other side of the river. The barman got used to my reek of diesel fuel and eventually served me without qualm - unflappable, these Northerners.

The Bazz Bomb was a snorter wasn't it, if I recall the fuselage sides were solid plywood! The "Timber" was a Chris Foss design too.

Hmm; Elmic Winders, Nitrex 15, ten mile bike rides - with these early symptoms, and to such a degree, there's no hope for you Tony, the condition is lifelong!!

Lynn
Yes it's one of those "looks right - fly right" planes isn't it? I will certainly be contacting Dave after sorting through my plans, it is about time I left a monument to posterity.
I'm really tempted with the Stk too - thanks for such an enjoyable thread.
Best
Chas

[rodair]

Chas,
by any luck would have the plan of the "little Rascal" once done as a r/c kit by Top Flite it was in the time of the School Boy also both intended to fly RC with the new release then Cox .010 ..? It was a little box type fusealge with an eleptical wing all sheet balsa plane in the 27" span and sub 2 oz. size desing by late Ken Willard..
Roger B.

[XJet]

Tony,
Wonderfully evocative shots, thanks!

The Bazz Bomb was a snorter wasn't it, if I recall the fuselage sides were solid plywood! The "Timber" was a Chris Foss design too.
Chas

Yes, it's de ja vu all over again here too!

I recall my single-channel stable including a Tyro minor, an Obogo, a Craftsman (David Boddington design), and my favourite of all -- a Plane Simple.

After a run of bad luck with my RC gear (UK-made Mainstream superhet -- they went bankrupt in the end) my version of the Plane Simple used 1/2" balsa fuselage sides and spruce wing spars.

When it spiralled in vertically from a great height (rudder servo stuck at full deflection -- again), all that happened was that the tissue on the wing shattered and the nose-leg bent a little.

Ah, the days of nylon propellors, dry-cell batteries, diesel engines and soft soil :-)

Other commonly seen single-channel gear at that time included Controlaire Mule, RCS, Fleet, OS and MacGregor (half of these were super-regenative so only one could be flown at a time). It was also about this time that the first digital proportional sets started to appear. Brands such as MicroAvionics, Heathkit, RCS, Kraft, Sprengbok, and others were seen changing hands for what was then *enormous* amounts of money.

That was also the period when SuperTiger, Veco, K&B and the very first OS and Enya engines began to appear.

Only one person in the whole club had an electric starter -- and he'd made it himself.

Models were built from real balsa, tissue and silk, all held together with genuine balsa cement and dope.

Gee I miss the smell of strong dope :-)

Gosh darn it -- I've just talked myself into building a new plane for my old OS Pixie gear.

[rodair]

Here is what I was refencing to...
Roger B.

[clipclop]

Roger,
This site has reproduced plans of the original rubber Rascal .
http://www.parmodels.com/Plans/jigtime.htm
You maybe able to scale it .
Stewart

[rodair]

Chas, Tonyo,
thanks for the escapment pictures, Tonyo on yuor pictures is it possible to see a top view of C or other to see the coil / relay if you still have these handy or next to you?
Anyone with the Rascal plans? nice eleptic wing here! I'll CAD one..also does one remember what color goes with freqency for the ribbon on the antennea in the 26-27 Mhz vinicity?
Thanks for reply...
Roger B.

[rodair]

Thanks ClipClop!
Its a very similar model from R. Bradley althought there was 3 differents kinds done in that time area...If I remember correctly the plans didn't show the wings.. :-(
not sure but almost!
Roger B.

[Chas]

Xjet - you said the Obogo? I must have left my webcam switched on - it's on my building board at the moment! :)

[Tony Oliver]

RODAIR - will these do?

[rodair]

TONYO,
This is Magic! thank you so much I really appreciate!
real little gem for these day's...last asking here what does the facade of a transmiter look like in those days..? I am gardering all kind of info's since if wasn't of these where wher we noaday...Nice pictures I appreciate...I will also try to post..some pic's time permit stay tune..
Roger B.