They want to end 3D [Archive]

gordo-plast

Nov 04, 2003, 04:58 PM

Please join the fight to save 3D. All the info on the rule changes are located here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save3D/

Please join this group

There is also a thread in the Pro Bro forum here on RC Groups that will help get the details out

Viper Pilot

Nov 05, 2003, 10:08 AM

Personally, on a safety viewpoint, it is a good rule.

As for "banning" 3D, not so. You can still do all the 3D stuff, as long as you keep the rudder 1/1,000 " off the ground.

I mean, do you actually have to touch to do the maneuver???

A lot of worry over a simple safety issue. We gotta live with it.

VP

P.S. There has been an additional rule that prevents catching your plane in flight. Betcha the Zagi-lovers hate that one.

t_predator90

Nov 05, 2003, 10:22 AM

Isn't this one also in Airplane Talk?

Ulf Rieder

Nov 05, 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Viper Pilot
P.S. There has been an additional rule that prevents catching your plane in flight. Betcha the Zagi-lovers hate that one.

Not only the Zagi lovers. I love to grab my Electric 3D planes also out of a hover. Best way to land when not having a landing gear ;)
Now with glow powered planes I am more careful and have not done it (yet). :p

Ulf

gordo-plast

Nov 05, 2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Viper Pilot
Personally, on a safety viewpoint, it is a good rule.

As for "banning" 3D, not so. You can still do all the 3D stuff, as long as you keep the rudder 1/1,000 " off the ground.

I mean, do you actually have to touch to do the maneuver???

A lot of worry over a simple safety issue. We gotta live with it.

VP

P.S. There has been an additional rule that prevents catching your plane in flight. Betcha the Zagi-lovers hate that one.

Well, if you really want to know, no one stopped catching their zagis, or anything else. Bad rules make rule-breakers, they don't stop anything.

As to the safety issue, I can assure you that those of us that do it are the ones who should know, and there is no issue. I'm tired of hearing it so I'll give the short answer: If you can't show the statistics that prove the danger, please look into it and form a seriously educated position.

And yes, the evidence is clear: The intent is to eliminate 3D. First it was catching, then the 25 foot rule, now touching. All incremental regulation starts with the least objectionable areas first, and slowly moves into the more serious issues.

Respectfuyly

Gordo

Viper Pilot

Nov 05, 2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by gordo-plast
. . . Bad rules make rule-breakers, they don't stop anything. . . .

So, what's your beef . . . . why all the worry??

Since rules seem to mean very little to you, keep on doing what you want. Just don't do it at my field.

Viper

gordo-plast

Nov 05, 2003, 06:03 PM

Deal

Viper Pilot

Nov 05, 2003, 06:05 PM

:) :) :) :)

gordo-plast

Nov 05, 2003, 06:10 PM

LOL You're mild compared with the abuse we're getting right now!!!

Viper Pilot

Nov 05, 2003, 06:25 PM

At my club, new "safety" rules are added now and then . . . . those beyond the AMA rules.

No taxiing into the pit area . . . . .Manditory restraining equipment (or person) for the plane. . .

We own our own airfield (over 22 acres), and feel that safety is a major concern.

We have a Safety Manager, and he keeps everybody in line. If a member is found to be breaking AMA (or our own club) rules, they are ousted.

That tends to keep out the "rebels" and makes the site very safe.

Sorry to hear about the abuse you're getting. I'd like to hear more about that abuse.

Viper

gordo-plast

Nov 05, 2003, 06:36 PM

So I would be ousted if I tail touched?

Viper Pilot

Nov 05, 2003, 06:42 PM

Intentionally, yes.

Viper Pilot

Nov 05, 2003, 06:43 PM

Tell us more of the abuse.

gordo-plast

Nov 05, 2003, 08:37 PM

Oh, just cruise the threads here and on RCU related to this subject. 3D pilots are called all kinds of names. I've been getting email and PM from guys I don't know about this stuff. And at fields like yours we're always treated with distain, though the guy that can't land and only flys once a month never gets any crap. It's like Rock and Roll all over again! 3D pilots are at least as good a pilot as there are, yet always we are called unsafe, even though there are no statistics to show that!!! It's all about perception, opinion, and rhetoric.

I would outlaw flying on Sunday if there was evidence that it was dangerous in an extreme manner. And if there was evidence that tail touching was dangerous, I wouldn't need to be told not to do it.

Viper Pilot

Nov 06, 2003, 09:04 AM

We have several (at least 8 that I know of) 3D'ers at my club, and they are extremely fine fliers, and a joy to watch.

The only concern we hear of is that with their planes hovering midfield causes problems for others who want to fly "smooth and easy".

No slow fly-bys, no touch and goes, etc. while a plane is being hovered.

They've been given no abuse, though, and some have even limitied their 3D to the end of the day when the light is giving out.

As far as the PMs . . . . don't let the _________'s get you down.

VP

nate 1001

Nov 06, 2003, 02:58 PM

i'm the only 3der at my field. I always hear people complaining behind my back while I fly, but no one comes right out a says it. Some people like watching me and they argue over it weather I should fly like that or not. It makes me mad to know that because of a few people all 3ders get a bad name.

gordo-plast

Nov 06, 2003, 05:15 PM

I feel your pain Nate. My best advice is to become indispensable to the club. Run for office, fix whatever breaks, help run the events. It really helps.

Also, join the Pro Bros if you haven't already. It's sorta like a support group. You know........

"Hi, I'm Gordo, and I fly 3D"

But instead of helping you stop, they'll be there for you to help relieve the stress, and give you a few events a year where you can let your hair down.

Have you heard about Nashville? There were 11 planes hovering at once one time. And 17 planes includeing electrics flying at one time. Not one safety problem, and for the fuel we burned, and the radical flying, relativly few crashes.

Most "normal" pilots would have died at the sight!!! Man did we have some fun!!!

Gordo

Ulf Rieder

Nov 06, 2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by gordo-plast
I feel your pain Nate. My best advice is to become indispensable to the club. Run for office, fix whatever breaks, help run the events. It really helps.

Also, join the Pro Bros if you haven't already. It's sorta like a support group. You know........

Gordo

Oh yeah, I am the VP at our club and do fly 3D. It does help some, but I know they still talk but don't come forward :D
Our club for sure liked the $$ from our last Pro Bro fly in. And they are more then happy to have them back in March ;) Was able to close the field just for us for two days. Yeeeha :D
Hey Gordo, ready for the Pro Bro Fly In in Houston March 2004 ?

Ulf
Proud Pro Bro #13

gordo-plast

Nov 06, 2003, 06:45 PM

Ulf, If I'm breathing I'll be in Houston. If I'm not breathing, will you move my fingers on the sticks?

I'll be there for sure, and I'll be bringing a few new guys too, I hope. And of course Bill will come as well. Got big plans for Sat night?

Gordo

sircrashalotnot

Nov 15, 2003, 10:00 PM

Why do people have to be such ass's?? Just mind your own airplane and fly and have fun. It's no fun to have a bunch of guys who just like to make rules and yell at people who brake a stupid rule. Most of the time the guys that make all the dumb rules dont hardly fly. My word of advice is for everyone to SHUT UP and fly right.

t_predator90

Nov 16, 2003, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by sircrashalotnot
Why do people have to be such ass's?? Just mind your own airplane and fly and have fun. It's no fun to have a bunch of guys who just like to make rules and yell at people who brake a stupid rule. Most of the time the guys that make all the dumb rules dont hardly fly. My word of advice is for everyone to SHUT UP and fly right.

Thant's why I am so glad there is no AMA in Israel...:D

gordo-plast

Nov 16, 2003, 11:29 AM

Hey there predator, did you ever get the SPA3D going?

latch66

Nov 17, 2003, 11:32 PM

This isn't over yet!

Send your AMA rep a letter. And while your at it send one to the AMA Pres too. Gordo's set it up so you can do it real easy.

I agree that we must be safe, but the "no tail touch" rule really doesn't make much sense. As I understand, the rule was originally made because of the fear of "beginners" trying the manuver.

The plane has zero airspeed. There is very little stored energy in the airplane during a hover. The amount of control that is needed to maintain a hover, let alone touch the tail is intense and well beyond a beginner. I am far more nervous when there are beginners flying than I am when someone is flying 3D.

I'm not anti-beginner, we need them to help grow this hobby. And let's face it, we've all been in those shoes before. My point is that the amount of control that is needed for 3D flight is totally beyond what a beginner has.

If your not into 3D that's OK, but please listen to our argument and help us fight this rule.

Remember, you may get a rule tomorrow which will affect your chosen portion of this hobby which makes about as much sense as rule #9 does to us.

gordo-plast

Nov 17, 2003, 11:38 PM

you go Latch

CrazyHerb

Dec 06, 2003, 06:57 PM

Hey...why not stir it up some more...

What would do more damage?

An ys 1.20 powered .40 sized warbird racer hitting at 130+...or a funfly with a broken rudder (which it can be flown back to landing if needed) with a max airspeed of 20 mph at full throttle with that fat airfoil.

Hehe...I'm terrible...I know....but we got some CARELESS FAST planes that show up at the field once in a while....(note I said plane...not pilot) that's a whole nother story..heheh.

I don't complain though...and I like to watch....this hobby is full of variables...and to each....their own.

Long live 3D (so I can fly)...... and warbird racers too (so I can watch)...

CrazyHerb

t_predator90

Dec 07, 2003, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by gordo-plast
Hey there predator, did you ever get the SPA3D going?

Hey gordo.
I've found a place that sells 4mil coro, and a friend of mine knows where to get a U channel. It's not exactly 1/2X3/4, but it's very close to that. I'm hoping to get shoping a few weeks from now. I've been very busy with all sorts of stuff, that I don't have time for new projects... Meanwhile I'm trying to hover with my Dazzler.... I CAN'T WAIT TO BUILD THE SPA3D!!!!!!:(:D;)

pipsta

Dec 07, 2003, 01:13 PM

language edited by moderator flying at a club, when i started this sport i looked around a few clubs and everyone flying were complete toff's. "oo your flight is shelduled for 8:15" what ********!!!

Its a r/c plane for god sake not a full size airport. I only fly park flyers but im not wasting my time with a bunch of nerds at the local club. I fly where i want when i want within safety of course.

Im not reckless but to fly at a club, pah what a load of language edited by moderator .

Sayin that, i want someone to fly with but i want to be able to fly when i want where i want, which is not possible at a club.

heymanwatchis

Dec 10, 2003, 04:25 AM

no one is completely right ..or completely wrong..a 3D plane in hovering position could go from nose-up, zero airspeed, to straight at someone you at full speed as fast as it can set up for a hover, but a 40-sized trainer can fly at 80+ in a shallow dive with a 10x6 APC turning 14,000 rpm. And these are most often in the hands of a newbie, or a "veteran" who's failing reflexes have forced him to step back down to a trainer. 98% of the near misses involving plane vs pedestrian, at my flying club anyway, involve someone who falls into these two categories. On the other hand, though, I realize that when I'm torque-rolling 20 feet out and directly in front of the flight box, I'm not exactly fascilitating comfortable touch and goes for the old timers making their lazy left hand circles. Funny thing is, these guys are probably the one's that made the rule anyway. I know I'm rambling, but I get p___ed when I talk about this because I too have heard the mummbling from the background. Maybe they're jealous, maybe they truely fear for their safety, but I wonder If they notice that everyone retreats to the shelter of the field house as they taxi there SAFE old trainer and commence their slow, calculated, rudder/coupled and coordinated left hand turns until there timer beeps, they set up for an insanely long downwind uproach and float right past the runway, nose over in the ruff at the end of the runway, and go hobbling after it. I say they should fly U-control....they just make left hand turns too...... right?
that's just what I think.

artmonster

Dec 10, 2003, 10:07 AM

Hay I gotta put my two cents in.....actually one cent because Im broke buying supplies for the new Fun Fly Hots Im building.....

this will be my first 3D/funfly type plane.

I have been practicing my hovering etc on Real flight for about a year now, and I think Im ready. ( thanks guys for submitting all of the different types of 3d planes to real Flight, so I could get a feel of the variations of setups)

language edited by moderator.......oops....lets not go back that far..........I mean.........I started as an avid glow pilot, then sailplanes got my attention (high starts, winches, tossing off a cliff), then I happened to stuble upon Slope soaring/combat ( oh my god...what fun that is!!! EPP rocks!!), and then HLG/DLG stuff.....I even have zagis, and yes I admit it...I fly a Zagi Fixx too at the park......

...my point??........oh yes......

my point is: that all new ideas are heralded as poison. That being said, I dont think 3D is going away or will be slapped down. It is obvious by all of the passion ( both ways) about it.

An example: when I put together my first DAW FoaMe 109 EPP Slope combat plane and showed the club...there were many reactions such as; Wow cool!! where's the engine?.......foam!!? are you serious!???......flying back and forth in the wind will be boring..........so before I even tossed it off on its maiden voyage...I nearly believed them all............but I threw it off the slope anyway, and had a near religious revelation!!!!! language edited by moderator....... ( well...no.......belay that last statement :) )

...and you know what? almost all of the club members never tried slope soaring at all.....and based their judgements on personal stereotypes. Most of the members are older slow glow'ers.

We are now seeing as many 3D plane ARF's as regular type planes being sold by every manufacturer in the business. Its not uncommon to see many more 3D planes in catalogs than sailplanes....and sailplanes have been around for how long?? :).

It is in human nature to create bigger/better/different things from a basic concept ( aircraft ).

There will be a happy medium. I dont know what it will be...but it will happen. 3D pilots have a right to do what thier passion is. and Traditional pilots have the right to voice thier opinion.

It may boil down to having separate flying spaces ( like heli pads away from the main airstrip, or control line areas that are in a different spot, etc ). Just because it is so radically different style of flight....I dont know.

I dont think that the AMA should ban anything about 3D personally. I just think it should be re-evaluated as a different type of R/C flight alltogether. 3D should have its own set of standards and rules, not have them based upon traditional aircraft rules. Flight is evolving, the way we base safety and procudure should evolve too.

everyone thinks that they are right, but please!!! listen to all the sides of the story. It will be hard to reach everyone, but I assure you, if enough voices are heard, a mutual agreement CAN be achieved.

Wish me luck boys and girls with the Fun Fly Hots....Im excited as a baby bear in a honey warehouse to get it in the air the first time.... language edited by moderator...........who knows.

kombat kid

Dec 07, 2004, 04:36 PM

"Bad rules make rule-breakers, they don't stop anything."

Exactly!!! At my club people fly in there own style. of course we do have rules and people do get asked to stop there recklesness if it gets dangerous. I feel that thoes fast pylon racers are more dangerous than 3d, one mistake and they send 6 pounds of wood and metal thru the pits at 150mph. SO, what im sayin is that 3D FLYING IS VERY SAFE!!!

kyle

gordo-plast

Dec 07, 2004, 04:43 PM

LOL Nothing like dredging up an angry thread from a year ago!!! :D

mwraight

Dec 07, 2004, 08:03 PM

"Bad rules make rule-breakers, they don't stop anything."

People are going to 3D if they want to. There is a lot of free open land in the world!

They can't legislate you if you don't belong! It would be interesting to see some people start some non-AMA flying fields. They only have power over you if you let them. Sure some of the rules are good for safety - but some are down right ridiculous. They govern best who govern least.

kombat kid

Dec 07, 2004, 08:31 PM

LOL Nothing like dredging up an angry thread from a year ago!!! :D Good point, i didnt even look at the dates( i did a search) but i felt like saying somethin' about this!

kyle

gordo-plast

Dec 07, 2004, 11:25 PM

I wasn't complaining, it was funny!!

billrcpilot

Dec 08, 2004, 04:17 PM

Fly what you want to fly, and enjoy the hobby. after all it is a hobby not a business.

Bill

kombat kid

Dec 08, 2004, 05:13 PM

since this thread died a year ago, Are the new rules against 3d still being decided?

gordo-plast

Dec 08, 2004, 07:30 PM

The infamous "Rule 9" was overturned much to Dave Browns regret, and "Tail touches" are again legal. That's what started all this. But there is still a huge divide between "3D" pilots and "other" pilots. Some meets are forbiding 3D, and the indoor crowd and giant scale crowd seem to be getting very serious on this subject. And then you get those that have 3D "only" gatherings in response. In some cases these are scheduled at the same time to try to "show up" each other. :-( So there is much work to do, and when we do get past it (as have big planes, fast planes, jets, combats, etc) there will be some new group to treat as outcasts!! :-)

Just be friendly towards all types and be sure you are not part of the problem!!

(wow, that may be the first totally serious post I've made in a year!!!)

Shaggy

Dec 17, 2004, 06:27 PM

Here is my thing, i enjoy taking my electric 3dr out and draging it down the run way (tail) but to ban tail touches and stuff of that nature is extream. Tail touch could be event only on runway non events, or normal days at the field touch away just not while there are other people on the flight line, or if you must touch, take it out a little bit away form everyone. they way i look at it is that people are just jelous that they cant do it. Sodrag on my friend drag on.

ron ferrer

Dec 17, 2004, 08:13 PM

aww, the circle flyers are starting to adjust. and there are 3d mags out now, and how about the profile brotherhood? 1200 guys who 3d! We can't be stopped. I think we are the future of the hobby! :) in fact, I was so bored with flying in circles after 25 years that I woulda probably quit the hobby if it wasn't for 3d; it's a new challenge!

David Hogue

Dec 17, 2004, 09:39 PM

I saw a thread in scale the other day where a bunch of folks were saying 3D is boring, get a heli, etc. I find it challenging, especially since I can't do most of it:D I like to try new things and learn and improve my flying and building...I like all facets of R/C flying, from 3D to scale to DLG to indoor...variety keeps it interesting. Besides, if them rivet counters are bored, they don't have to watch!!:D:D:D

Later,
David
PB#417

TailTwister

Dec 20, 2004, 01:52 PM

I think the 2005 Safety Code is worded in a much more positive way. Even though we were not able to put Dave Mathewson in the driver seat, our point was made and heard in Muncie.

I can't say that the AMA is what I'd consider 3D friendly now, but it is much better than a year ago. My thanks to everyone who shouted from the mountain tops and everyone that listened.

3D isn't a fad or a fading fancy. The number of planes introduced specifically for 3D anually is an indicator of that. There are several companies now that represent only 3D products. And those that represent a more diverse line of products are expanding their 3D lines as well.

A few seasons ago, I heard the negative whispers too. Now I hear lots of questions on equipment and technique. It just took a while to catch on. My club knows that if they indicate the need for the runway, (fly by, landing, touch and go, or a deadstick) my plane is gone in a blink. We even end up with more than one plane at a time hovering now. Heck, I spent some time hovering with a heli this year.

The Nashville Pro Bro 2004 had 27 planes hovering together.

It's a big sky, and there is plenty of room for 3D.

One thing that makes 3D a real good to practice... A good 3D pilot never faces an "unusual attitude". By piloting the plane into and out of any imaginable attitude over and over, the pilot becomes very good at handling those emergency situations (or conditions) that crash many of the more traditional pilots. No, this is not a bash of traditional pilots... Anyway, I'm a better pilot, of all aircraft, because of the practice of 3D flight. My stick commands are instant and more disciplined. Unless the airplane falls apart in the air completely, I've got a good shot at recovery.

I also seem far less affected by wind. Most pilots here stay home at about 15 mph. I've been known to test fly planes in as much as 30 mph, and bring them home in the correct number of pieces.

Long live 3D.
Long live the Brotherhood.

Jared

Dec 20, 2004, 03:23 PM

Reading this reminds me a lot of the comments around the helicopter community, and how conventional airplanes and helicopters can have trouble getting along. It never ceases to amaze me to see the number of people that don't have enough politics and drama in their lives, so that they have to try and recreate it in their recreational pursuits.

As for the idea that bad rules make rulebreakers... maybe the rule won't stop anyone from doing what they want to do, but I bet it will stop the AMA from paying any insurance claims for such circumstances, should something go wrong. They say they won't cover any violations of the safety code, don't they?

Al_

Dec 20, 2004, 07:28 PM

I think people need to simply designate a 3D flying time and a regular flying time. That could solve the "getting along" issue.

As for touching the ground, it sounds like a "worst case scenario" fear. What is the worste that could happen? I personally have yet to hear about someone not being able to land a plane after breaking the rudder off, but there is still the possibility of it happening.

I think the best idea for such manuvers is to limit them before abolishing them (ie: not during fun flies).

crazystix

Dec 21, 2004, 11:04 PM

I have personally witnessed a profile doing high alpha knife edge AFTER having half the rudder broken off. If the entire rudder breaks off, then the plane would have to be flown with right stick only... like 99% of the people fly anyway! If the rudder were stuck fully deflected the plane would have to land or fly in circles...which is what they want us to do anyway. It was a stupid rule put in effect by a (Personal attack removed by moderator) man and a bunch of (Personal attack removed by moderator) people just re-elected him. No telling what he'll think of next. No engines larger than .049? With rubber props?

Personal Attacks are not permitted in the RC Groups forums, please abide by the forum posting guidelines.

poloflyer

Dec 29, 2004, 10:13 AM

personally i think helicopters are slightly more dangerous than 3-d planes nothin to bring down heli's i have one... and i fly zagi's too and i love to catch mine, i think its stuipid to try to bring down 3d and it will never succeed.
steve

Opie818

Dec 29, 2004, 11:50 AM

Opie818

Dec 29, 2004, 11:58 AM

Why would anyone want to end this new element of our great hobby?I hope the Big business of this hobby supports the fight to save 3D.

billrcpilot

Dec 29, 2004, 01:09 PM

The young generation of this hobby(my generation)is the future of this hobby and i dont know very many of these pilots my age that DONT fly 3D. Everyone enjoys it. The older generation has a few sore spots that dont like change, and are bias towards kids. Its sad to see but it happens often. Kids are seen as little hellraisers to these people and when they see us do 3d, 3d is automatically wrong or dangerous just because we do it. If 3ders stay strong and become active in their club we can beat this, if we dont the ama will be up the creek when it comes to my generation being members. Opieyou say young generation? how old are you and how long have you been flying. i'am 63 been flying for over 40 years and have NO SORE SPOTS in my club we flying everything and we all get along. so don't say THE OLDER GENERATION when only a few object to 3D flying.

Opie818

Dec 29, 2004, 01:49 PM

First off bill, read the reply again "A FEW" sore spots, i didnt say all of the older generation. My good friend i fly electrics with is an older gentleman and i am also training my grandfather to fly r/c so dont make me look like the bad guy here. I was simply stating that there are more older people in this hobby that dont like 3d than younger. I went to the columbus JR Festival and saw a good mesh of old and young flying 3d, but i also saw 2 or 3 older men stereotyping the 3ders as annoying and pilots that get in the way of the sloflyers after they had collisions with 3d pilots. Mid-airs do happen at the festival but its not all the 3d'ers fault. Opie

Ps. Im 18 and have as much respect for the people in this hobby as anyone, im not trying to single anyone group out.

billrcpilot

Dec 29, 2004, 07:14 PM

CafeenMan

Jan 15, 2005, 04:40 AM

As always, the problem is the pilot(s) in question, not the specific activity. There are a lot of obnoxious and unsafe pilots out there. It doesn't matter if they're racing, flying pattern, flying sport or flying 3D. They put everyone at the field in danger because they're stupid.

Then something happens and everyone has a knee-jerk response to it which makes no sense at all. What they should do is take a serious stance against unsafe flying and ground those guys who do it.

I have no problem with 3D flying although I don't do it, but I don't have the skills either. What I do have a problem with is some guy hot-dogging a plane that doesn't look like it's maintained and flying it straight at the pits at some ungodly speed and then yanking it like it's made of titanium.

Some people just have no common sense.

Personally, I would love to belong to a club that actually enforces the rules. I've yet to see one. Every club I've been a member of or visited had all kinds of unsafe things going on and while everyone complained among themselves, nobody actually addressed it.

I wrote an article for my website addressing this kind of stuff with some specific examples.

I don't really feel like debating my conclusions and don't think anyone will agree with me either, but if somebody has a better solution I'd like to hear it.

http://airfieldmodels.com/information_source/model_building_philosophy/regulating_radio_control_flight.htm

killerproblem

Jan 15, 2005, 08:19 AM

hello ya'll i don't fly 3D i fly sailplanes ... i can understand how it feels to have the pilots at your local feilds grumbling in the background , the two 3D pilots that fly at the feild closest to me are about the ONLY peeps i don't get complaints from.... and the norm is that we're the only ones really flying "safe" the 3D pilots and i set up almost 1500 ft (2 streets over) from the outhers now, they joined me where i set up my winch (the thing i get the most complaints about at the feild) we all check in at the feild and make shure about our channels being clear then head away from the rest... they fly at the same time a lot and they use my winch line as a feild divider one flys on one side one on the outher normally within 75 ft of where they are standing... i just tell em when i'm ready to launch and they get some distance from the line.... all good ... my smaller planes i allmost allways hand catch to save on scrapes and dings from hidden rocks and sutch.....i really don't see any thing unsafe about their flying the plane is usally flying slower than my larger sailplanes with the flaps at max......

just my pennies worth....