Wood U Build?

[schrederman]

First let me say that this is to satisfy my curiousity, NOT to get a firestorm started. I really don't want a builder vs. ARF flyer banter.

If you normally fly ARFs, have little or no building experience, but had an experienced builder to mentor you, would you attempt to build a semi-complex model, say, like a Big Bird, or a Majestic?

Again, please don't be argumentative. If you answer, please let me know your building experience level, whether you would build or not, and briefly why.

I'm prompted to ask because of the level of interest we are having in the Houston Hawk project.

Thanks in advance.

Jack Womack

PS...we had 13 in attendance today...a pretty good turnout!

[fprintf]

Experience level: flying - some. Building - barely any except a few poor attempts at balsa hand chuck gliders.

I would attempt to build. However I might be tempted to build a semi-complex model without the guidance. I'd just rely upon the long building season to provide incentive for patience, the good guidance to be found here and I'd be sure to pick a model that has adequate directions. I am told that the BigBird and any of the laserarts models are just such products. Stir in a bottle of CA and voila! a plane appears. :) :)

With that said, if I could attend a building project locally once a week in the evenings I would do so in a heartbeat!

Stuart

[RCFlybry]

I've built approximately 30 planes over the last 14 years. Some from kits, some from scratch. I actually prefer to scratch build as I feel you get much more out of the whole experience. Plus it's a real joy to see something fly knowing that it was built from scratch. I only wished that I lived closer to you as I'd love to sit in on the classes, and build the Hawk that you guys are doing.
It looks fantastic!!

Bryan

[portfoxdesign]

Have built approx 10 planes over the years, half from kits the others from scratch. Its probably the attention to detail that can be rewarding for the builder.

Steve

[Ollie]

I have been building models since the mid 1930's. I am a fair craftsman but far from the best. My true love is design. The only way to build your own designs is from the raw materials. I also enjoy thermal flying. I would probably enjoy slope flying if there were a convenient slope in my area.

I bought two inexpensive ARFs but was dissatisfied with both of them because I can do better building my own designs.

Everyone has their own way of enjoying themselves. My joy is in building and flying my own creations.

I am presently in the process of gathering the materials to build Dr. Drela's Bubble Dancer as closely to his design as I can. After studying his designs I know they are better than anything I can do.

However, there is one design challenge left for me. That is to design a high performance RES model that uses all wood spars, can take a full pedal winch launch and has contest winning performance. It won't be quite as good as the Bubble Dancer but I think it will be close.

My inspiration for this design project comes from this Burt Rutan quote:

"People will eventually realize that the correct approach is to use the lowest
technology that will do the mission, not the highest."

[kingbee]

I've been building model airplanes since about 1970, starting with stick & tissue models. Built first R/C sailplane 1978. Closest I've come to an ARF was a couple Hobie Hawks I've owned. Flying ability: intermediate. Building ability: advanced intermediate.

Significant gaps in my building ability include cutting foam cores, vacuum bagging, and composite spar construction.

I'm only mildly interested in the first two because I prefer to work with wood.

So to answer your question:
I would attend a program like the Houston Hawk project to learn about the spar construction.

Since I fly with a hi start, and don't fly in contests, I guess a spar like that would be just a bit too hi tech for my needs (see Rutan quote above). But it still interests me.

Cheers,
Dave

[Ollie]

Dave,

A strong wing has advantages beyond contest winning zoom launches. It will break the winch line before the wings fold. It will survive a stuck winch solenoid. It will survive an abrupt pull out from a terminal velocity dive that will get you out of even stronger thermals than spoilers will.

[kingbee]

Ollie,
You're absolutely right. I'm sure that knowing your wing can take any flight loads you can throw at it, intentionally or otherwise, is a good feeling.

And in addition to the practical aspects, there is, to me anyway, an aesthetic side. I think there's beauty in a well designed, efficient structure.

That's why I'm most interested in the HH project. There seems to be very little basic step-by-step spar building information around. Maybe carbon spars are so ubiquitous that it's assumed that everyone knows how to build them.

Cheers,
Dave

[emersunn]

Originally posted by schrederman

If you normally fly ARFs, have little or no building experience, but had an experienced builder to mentor you, would you attempt to build a semi-complex model, say, like a Big Bird, or a Majestic?


After a few builds of ARFs and Kits, I realized I like the building aspect almost as much as the flying. I have just begun a woodie scratch-build (Allegro-Lite: falls under the "complex" definition) and will probably move up to bagging in the future. I do not forsee buying another kit (unless it is really cheap and I am feeling impulsive).

Although from what I have learned from others is that most people like flying much more than building (especially new recruits).

[MTT]

I love building !
See the building pics of my Flair Ka8 sailplane on my website :
Ka8 building (http://www.mt-rc-soaring.com/Ka8_building.html)
This winter, I will start building a 1/4 scale sperber junior from plans.

The Ka8 might not be my best flying sailplane, but it flies very well, and it is very rewarding to see such a plane fly after having spent many afternoons and evenings working on it.

Michael

[MTT]

If you normally fly ARFs, have little or no building experience, but had an experienced builder to mentor you, would you attempt to build a semi-complex model, say, like a Big Bird, or a Majestic?

Yes, but with emphasis on the experienced builder mentoring you.

Michael

[Pteradactyl]

You wouldn't by chance be considering a video/CD would you? Now that would be cool! John

[Don Mackay]

I would give anything to have a mentor guide me through building a sophisticated winch proof wing. I have built a number of sailplane kits, and try to beef up the spars, but I'm not sure I'm doing all I can. I would rate my building experience as intermediate, and my flying experience as novice
(lots of wall hangers). Central New York lacks any sailplane clubs, it had one back in the 80's but it folded. I get all my info from the ezone, balsasailplanes, RCSE, Charles River site etc.
I'm looking for a winter project, a large RES sailplane, I'd love to build a Hawk, but the commute would kill me. I talked to Ray at Skybench, he suggested a Sky Bird, I made the mistake of buying a Dynaflite BOT ARF, luckily i got a refund from my LHS. If you ever decide to kit the HH project I would purchase one. Looking forward to your progress reports.
Don

[BMatthews]

I think you'll find that the ARF crowd is split in to two camps. The ones that just can't be bothered to build and treat the model as a "tennis racquet" that is just a tool needed to fly. And the other camp that used the ARF as the route into the hobby and would like to learn to build and fly their own work.

I won't even try to guess the %'s on each side but I'm sure that there is more than enough folks in the second camp to go around. Certainly the response to your other thread and the sad moans about not being in your area shows that this is the case.

I think a lot of them don't take the plunge just for the reasons that you are probably finding now. The lack of a mentor to guide the new builder through the high tech and detail oriented building tasks of an advanced technique model such as your Hawk. And yes your Hawk IS advanced compared to something like a Gentle Lady or Spirit. I'm sure you've seen lots of examples where those models were at the limits of the skills of their builders. Not to flame the guys, far from it, but even those models probably drove the builders to take nerve relaxants with the concepts and skills needed. Your Hawk is a league above most of them without proper guidance.... At least for the first time.

I think what you guys are doing in Houston is a wonderful thing. You'll provide the skills and self confidence to a whole group that perhaps would never have taken the jump needed to move beyond the simple kits.

[schrederman]

Thanks, everyone, and keep the comments coming. There are some really great points here. I have to say that this project has been very gratifying thus far. The thing to remember is that this is to promote the hobby, the Houston Hawks as a club, and most of all, the builders. I know there are some out there with a greater skill level than me. Give of yourself. Mentor someone. Do a club project, even if it's OLY IIs, Marauders, Majestics, or whatever. I went with the Hawk because I could use most of the building techniques I know. It's complex enough to challenge everyone, and keep them interested. At the same time, it's simple enough to get them done and flying in some 1-design stuff...that's going to be fun!

As far as a video goes, it's been overwhelming enough....that would probably take it beyond where I'd be willing to go.

Jack Womack

[Soar_dude]

I prefer to build rather then ARF my main reason is money. If you gotta start some where then start easy! By far the easist one i have built has been the Gentle lady. Just about all the 2 Meter Poly RES kits are easy to build. they take little to no tinkering to build'em. I have Learned alot from building'em. I have not had a mentor to help me build, but I have big aviation background and good mechinical skills if I get stuck on something. ARF's are good if you got the cash to spend on'em, or you do not have the time to build. With building them yourself you get BIG satisfaction that something you have built from stack of lumber flies like it is supposed to there is no greater feeling!


Soar dude

[MTT]

With building them yourself you get BIG satisfaction that something you have built from stack of lumber flies like it is supposed to there is no greater feeling!

I feel exactly the same way, although the money issue also plays a part.

Michael

[solo6796]

I started flying this year with the Hawks. I've never built a model before. Been flying ARF Spectra, Elegant, and Bird 3000.

Arf's have the advantage of being able to get to fly sooner, but many are built cheaply and are not very durable. I bought the BOT kit and was immediately intimidated by the seeming complexity of the wing build. I've got the fuze nearly done as well as the stab and rudder, but have started on the Houston Hawk with Jack's help now.

Although I don't have any experience and don't know the little time-saving procedures, I'm learning. It's coming along and I think when this one is done, I can begin the BOT wing with more confidence.

These forums have given me a lot of useful info, but having an experienced mentor in the process is a huge plus. Just watching Jack going through the process of building his outer wing panel the other day taught me a lot. He makes everything look so easy that it just falls together. That's the advantage of many years of experience. I really appreciate his taking the time to share his gift with the rest of us.

This Houston Hawk Project is getting a lot of interest. I believe it will eventually become a classic, even if later modified in some way. This will be a good looking, well built, winch proof RES woody. I will be proud to say that I hand built one of the first ones ever made!

AJ

[Kestrel]

I have not seen a Big Bird kit but have seen a couple of the finished products fly. It is a good performer.

I have built and flown the Majestic. It to is a good performer but does have a tip stall habit and needs to keep the air speed up in the turns. I plan to rebuild and modify it this winter.

The Majestic is not a hard model to build. Like any model, it is necessary to build on a flat surface and keep it flat. The wing halves are built in 3 separate panels that will be joined. So, you are going to build a total of 6 panels. Again, this is not difficult but does require patience and an attention to detail. The fuse is slot and tab construction and is rather straight forward. The tailplanes are very conventional.

If you have not built a couple of models before, your problem may come with the instructions. The manual is OK, but does not explain everything in detail. I think they assume that the builder already knows the basics. If you have the assistance of an experienced builder to call upon to clarify things you shouldn't have any trouble.

Without experience, perhaps the GP Spirit 100 would be a better project to start with. Their manual is quite detailed. I know one young fellow who built one as his very first model.

In my opinion though, the Bird and Majestic are much better performers and worth the extra labor. With your familiarity with sailplanes and the assistance of an experienced builder, you should be able to make it work.

[bwaltz]

I would like to learn to build, but with job, kids, etc.. finding the time to do that AND fly makes it difficult. I guess if I lived in a place that in the winter made it impossible to fly, I may be able to find the time. I actually bought a Oly II kit this past summer and was being guided by Master Roddy. The project was put on hold so I could move. i would have liked to join the Hawk project but timing was bad for me.

Another thing I grapple with is I am part of the "instant gratification" generation. I don't have the patience to build something over time when I know I can pay a little more and buy a ARF. The ARFs have come a long way in the past few years and the quality has really improved. (Except for the Dynaflight BOT ARF fiasco)

The last thing is I am really excited by fully molded ships. Some of these monsters are works of art and complete beauties. But, I do have the desire to build my own one day.

[davidleitch]

I am partly in the "tennis racket" group, partly in the no time group, and partly in the can't build better than the ARF manufacturer group.

Further I do enjoy flying high tech models such as those that use composite materials.

I admire good building whether its done on someone's kitchen table or in a high tech factory, but it ain't for me.

[wingsnapper]

Greetings from Denton, Jack.

I have built five sailplanes, two power, and an arf windstar. The only thing I have noticed is that all planes must be set up properly to perform well. I'm speaking of the final touches like joining wing pannels correctly and making shure proper angle of attack and cg is achieved. Framing the things up really presents no real problem... just keep it flat and straight. That being said, I believe that anyone should be able to produce a plane from kits provided they know how to assemble/tune an arf correctly (enter the old pro).

JS

[splash99]

I definitely want to built again - nothing like the satisfaction of a well-built ship that you have done all by yourself.

My challenge is not just that I am away from home a lot, but my workshop is about 40 min from where I live. I once built a plane in my little flat, and my GF was quite unhappy when, nomatter how often I cleaned everything, she would still find balsa slivers in our bed months after the event... I don't know where they came from, honestly.
So now I build in my parents basement, and wouldn't you guess - they are in their mid seventies and like to have company... and there is always just one more task to do...
so its always a big trip, a lot of socializing, until I can start to do something when they go to bed.....
It does make building tedious.

But as soon as a Houston Hawk kit is available, I'll go for it anyway!

Christian