Is electrics hurting the AMA?

[sparks]

This might be a can of worms but I'm going to open it any way.
I train about 3 new pilots per year now that the electrics have grown in popularity. That is up from 1 glow pilot per year.
I train in open fields near my home and I explain why its important to know where the AMA fields are. (freq. control) Some are interested in glow but never take the leap. There reasons are: Why pay to join a club and send money to the AMA when I'm doing fine at the school field?
This doesn't surprise me because I've seen small groups gather in ball parks and schools for the companionship part of the hobby. I see the same people at AMA electric funflys, they leave their planes home because who wants to pay the AMA dues and the entry fee for a fun fly? I think they are shopping for their next plane.
In the past two years, I've seen 3 of my long time glow power flying buddies switch to electric, sell their glow stuff, and drop from sight of the AMA radar. When asked about why, the reasons are about the same. They add that If it didn't happen within 200 miles of Muncie the AMA don't care.But that's another thread.

MY QUESTION IS: Am I the only one seeing this? Has there been a drop in membership?

[Miami Mike]

I can't make much sense out of your post unless by "electrics" you really mean "park flyers". The guys I fly with all have electric-powered gliders and hotliners, and we all have AMA insurance just like the slimers do. Our club also has an AMA charter.

[Jim Poor]

I fly at club fields and just about anywhere else that it's safe to fly. I can see the chances of channel conflict increasing with more pilots, but I can also see AMA membership rising as people get hooked and want more and more from the planes. They will search and get advice and maybe they'll join.

I think the threads we see in the AMA section are more likely to hurt membership than parkflyers.

I'm betting this thread gets moved there soon though. It will be nice to see a non-political thread added to the mix. ;)

[lrsudog]

I mainly fly electrics & sailplanes at small schools, but I still keep my membership in the AMA for the cool magazine.

Not really, but I do occasionaly want to fly in club fun flys & events.

Plus, I own a home, and at a certain point in your life, it's worth $48 just to have the extra insurance coverage and legal advocacy for your activities.

[flyingdogtwo]

The middle letter in AMA is "MODEL"

[Hal Ray]

If we want to keep clear frequencies we need the AMA to lobby for us. The insurance is just something extra.
I'm a AMA member and an club member. I don't fly at the club field much, mainly I use a park and a closed factory parking lot. I have planes from 22" to 80" span and only use the park when there is no one in the part I use.
I'm 100% electric and the only one in the club who is, about 3 others use glow and electric with about 80 who use only glow.
Is the AMA saying that there is a drop in membership?
I hope this will not be moved to the AMA forum because more will see it here.

HRH

[Kevin Murray]

Not hurting , likley helping.

[Jim Branaum]

Originally posted by Hal Ray
If we want to keep clear frequencies we need the AMA to lobby for us. The insurance is just something extra.
I'm a AMA member and an club member. I don't fly at the club field much, mainly I use a park and a closed factory parking lot. I have planes from 22" to 80" span and only use the park when there is no one in the part I use.
I'm 100% electric and the only one in the club who is, about 3 others use glow and electric with about 80 who use only glow.
Is the AMA saying that there is a drop in membership?
I hope this will not be moved to the AMA forum because more will see it here.

HRH

You are right about the frequency issue and other things. There is a thread (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156063 ) that addresses all the good reasons for being part of the AMA. You might read it and consider sharing it with the guys you fly with.

The concern within the AMA has been how to attract and retain the 'park flyer' as an AMA member since many percieve that the AMA has little to give. Since many park flyers operate 'off the cuff' at unregulated sites, it is easy to fall into that trap. The real answer is that the AMA protects us all and helps all of us get and retain flying rights at various places across the country.

I am not aware of any significant drop in AMA membership since the advent of almost practical electric birds (I am going to wait one more generation before I invest heavily there - Kokams have my attention!). However, my club of around 189 does have at least one electric only guy and he participates in just about everything. We also have several others who prefer electric but do have some glow.

The model being used is that the AMA Chartered Club is the source of lots of friends and fun. That model does not transfer well to unregulated sites which is why you see the problems we all have to figure out how to address.

Just my opinion.

[pda4you]

sparks,

I think you may be right. I have been a long time AMA member. I support their influence with the FCC and with flying site help and education programs. The Mag is OK.

I just payed my $58 bucks and I for the first time really wondered if that is a good value. I fly with a buddy who does not get it for that reason - cost.

I flew at one event last year and one this year where it was required. I am currently selling my last slimer aircraft and have switched exclusively to electrics.

I find it too difficult to get to the club field and it is too rough for ROG of my smaller airplanes. I fly at a school with a paved track and it is perfect for my small planes.

I think the AMA really needs to consider this "parkflyer" segment of the hobby, and see what they can do to attract more membership. The price has risen every year for the last 3 years.

Will you pay $68 next year - and how about $75 the year after that? I want to support the AMA, but feel they are not doing enough to contol costs.

Mike

[Jim Poor]

Speaking of the mag, Ih aven't got one yet, when do they come out?

jim

[Lightnin]

If I may,

I see three common themes here. Money, politics and freedom. These are the things choking the life blood out of our local AMA sanctioned club. I am not speaking about other places but here the "club" people run electric flyers off by the droves. I went to a homebuilt fly-in a couple of weeks ago the owner of the LHS asked me if I wanted to take some planes out for static display and talk to people. The "club" had the booth set up. I brought my Micro Jet and the first thing out of the presidents mouth was "oh thats cute I guess you can fly that in your back yard huh". Don't get me wrong I am not looking for a fight I am frustrated. We should be getting along on equal ground and advancing the hobby not looking down on one another. I believe that would help the AMA problem greatly. I know I would join if things could be different. But, right now what can I do? The "club" is not an option, the insurance won't cover me flying anywhere else, lets find a solution to get through this problem maybe and initiative by the AMA?

[pda4you]

when do they come out?

It is a monthy publication and takes about 6 weeks to get your first issue.

Mike

[Jim Poor]

hmmm, then it's LATE! Oh well, it will get here sooner or later.

[Jim Branaum]

Originally posted by pda4you
sparks,

SNIP

I think the AMA really needs to consider this "parkflyer" segment of the hobby, and see what they can do to attract more membership. The price has risen every year for the last 3 years.

Will you pay $68 next year - and how about $75 the year after that? I want to support the AMA, but feel they are not doing enough to contol costs.

Mike

Sorry, but the dues have not risen in several years. You may have moved from a junior membership to an open membership which might explain your view, but dues have not increased until the current renewal. The AMA EC went larger in the increase to avoid coming back for another dues increase for a few years. Maybe we can turn the corner on where the organization is going and reduce the dues in the future. More active membership helps that goal.

Originally posted by Lightnin
If I may,

SNIP

But, right now what can I do? The "club" is not an option, the insurance won't cover me flying anywhere else, lets find a solution to get through this problem maybe and initiative by the AMA?

I think someone has mislead you because what you have said is not correct.

AMA insurance is secondary and is always in effect as long as you fly within the safety code reguardless of the flying site you use. That means it will cover you in the park (unless the local political subdivision has made that action illegal), the school yard (with previously mentioned exclusions), at the club flying field, or wherever you find it reasonable to fly your planes.

Hope that clarifies things for you a bit.

[pda4you]

Sorry, but the dues have not risen in several years.

That is incorrect. Thanks but my Jr years are well behind me:).

Open membership:

2004 = $58
2003 = $47 (from memory)
2002 = $40 something can't remember the exact amount.

Dave Brown has addressed it several times in his article.

Mike

[Jim Branaum]

Mike,
Dues have not been that volitile over time, it just appear so. Dave addresses the issue from the big picture persepctive rather than the fine details. Not a problem, we just need to be careful about what we are saying about the AMA as creating more problems is never good.

I think you paid multiple years once and got the discount, then missed and paid full boat last year ($48) and then got caught this year. I think that may be why you don't recall exactly what they were in earlier years.

Here is why. I pay my dues in multiples of two, as offered on your renewal. If you take that action, there is always a few dollars saved because the AMA gives you the current rate discounted at the present value of the dollar amount being paid by the banks.

The last time I actually paid my dues (2001) the check was for $150. That got me 2 years, my kids a year each and a (over $50) direct contribution to the AMA. This years renewal did not go quite so far.

[Larry Dudeck]

I believe the AMA has recognized the value of e-powered flight.

Bob Aberle has just finished a three (or was it four) part series aimed at the beginning flyer with an emphasis on e-power. For those who don't know, Bob wrote the book on e-flight. Granted, his text needs editing to include all the rapidly advancing technology in batteries, motors, etc. But still, a total newbie to e-power could gain a tremendous amount of info from that book.

In the latest issue of the AMA mag, a suggestion is made to clubs, which are facing local neighborhood objections due to noise (and risk losing their site) to consider switching to e-power.

It is only a matter of time before glow engine use is restricted because of noise considerations. Most general avaiation fields already post notices to departing pilots about reducing noise levels during take off. This holds true for commercial avaition as well. Why would R/C be any different?

It seems like a lot of municipally owned club fields are having their turf encroached on by soccer teams. As soccer activity increases (a soccer team costs 1/10th that of a football team - schools will be more inclined to field soccer teams as budgets get tighter), field size will either be reduced or R/C use banned. Hence the park flier will only become more prevalent. This is OK for now but sooner or later there will be an incident where a park flyer injures (or worse) a bystander. When that happens we should not be surprised to see the "NO MODEL PLANE FLYING ALLOWED" signs popping up like weeds after a rain storm.

I believe it is going to be an uphill battle to maintain flying sites, especially those in close proximity to housing. Quiet(er) E-power can elimininate one major source of the neighbor's complaints. The AMA can be of value in helping to maintain sites.

The AMA will adapt to its members needs and wishes. The more E-fliers who become members, the louder the voice we will have in the AMA.

[ICTHRMLS]

Originally posted by Jim Branaum

I think you paid multiple years once and got the discount, then missed and paid full boat last year ($48) Jim - last year's (2003 membership) dues were indeed $58 as they tried to implement the 1/2 (only) credit for CD's a year early, hence my $29 notice...... which was recinded as they forgot about earned CD credit from the year before. This year (2004) it is still $58 but CD's pay $29.

Still it represents a huge increase from just 5 years ago but what hasn't gone up???? I would like to think the dues increase to $58 would hold for many more years.

[Greebe]

This year was my first with AMA and it was $48. Now I see '04 is $58. There is one club here that is restricted to only ePower. I found that great! :) Problem is I can't get to the field (son's wheelchair bound) and the wife is forced to work some wacky hours at times and the place is a good 30 minute drive each way. Sadly I can't see dropping another $50 annually for this club :( Needless to say dispite the fact I have an AMA membership, it only does me good for the group as a whole. Nothing more.

Next up, praying that the few anal grey hairs(mainly Pres. home owners assoc) around here, who complain about nearly anything (including children playing in the street! errr we're in a Cul de Sac where it's safe for kids) will do to my flying (still not in the air yet)

P.S. I'm balding grey hair myself, so don't get your panties in a bind ;)

[reills]

I just re-upped for two years. I fly in my backyard, a 15 acre hayfield, and the secondary insurance coverage is comforting. I mean, the plane could stray and conk a hiker on the Appalachian Trail.

I flew at one AMA sanctioned event this year, had to work the weekend of a second, and had a burnt ESC just prior to NEAT.

Model Aviation has taken a noticable E slant recently which shows me they know we're out there.

I think a lot of what we get from the AMA is somewhat less than tangible which can make it tough to justify at times.

To answer the original question "Is E-flight hurting the AMA?" No, I do not think so. IT IS changing it. Change can be uncomfortable sometimes.

[Miami Mike]

Originally posted by Greebe
This year was my first with AMA and it was $48. Now I see '04 is $58.Check again. The dues were $58 for 2003 and $58 again for 2004. They were cheaper for 2002. Perhaps you got a discount for joining late.

[Lightnin]

Jim,

Hey, sorry if I was wrong I was led to beleive it was left up to my home-owners insurance if I was not flying at a sacnctioned field. I would still like to see more cooperation between gas/glow & electric maybe it needs to come from the top down? Think about it. If all pilots worked together we would have a much stronger voice.

[sparks]

PDA4you got the point. All I really wanted to know was, does any one else know people that have abandoned the AMA to save money.

My club has set aside a section of the field for electrics, or do I mean parkfliers. In the eyes of most GLOW POWERED pilots there is not much difference. When you call them slimers don't get bent when your big electric plane is called a parkflier.

I know I started this thread, and there wont be another, lots of toes to step on. So I think I'll slip over to my favorite sections and enjoy reading about planes and not worry about the AMA.

[Jim Branaum]

Originally posted by sparks
PDA4you got the point. All I really wanted to know was, does any one else know people that have abandoned the AMA to save money.

My club has set aside a section of the field for electrics, or do I mean parkfliers. In the eyes of most GLOW POWERED pilots there is not much difference. When you call them slimers don't get bent when your big electric plane is called a parkflier.

I know I started this thread, and there wont be another, lots of toes to step on. So I think I'll slip over to my favorite sections and enjoy reading about planes and not worry about the AMA.

Thank you Sparks! You have made an extremely valid point. Name calling is rarely productive.

I fly an IFO, a Zagi, and a ejet. I ALSO fly several .40 sized glow powered birds and a couple 30%+ sized gas birds. I have not figured out a perjorative name to call my type of modeler. . .

The point is a modeler can (and frequently IS) involved in many different facets of our hobby.

My club does not set aside a special area for the electric guys, we don't have enough land and frequency control is still an issue. However all of us do make some minor adjustments in our operating procedures to accomodate the electric guys. We have on who plays at our Big Bird events with an 80 or 84 inch electic plane. I don't think THAT could possibly be defined as a 'park flyer', but I could be wrong.

Back to the insurance issue for a moment because I want to clarify something for everyone.

AMA insurance is ALWAYS secondary for the modeler. That means the claim goes to your homeowners insurance before it goes to the AMA coverage. It makes no difference where or what you fly as long as you are within the safety code and the local laws.

If you don't have any other coverage the AMA stuff is primary. For the land owner leasing to an organized and Chartered AMA club, the coverage IS primary. Now if you happen to be flying in a local park without a written agreement of some sort, I dont think (but am not positive) that is true.

Hope that clears up some misconceptions.

[plane_pilot]

I used to be an AMA member over 10 years ago. After a long absences, I just recently got back into the hobby. First a e-heli and now an e-plane. Back when I had it, I used it mainly to fly at our local club, but now I can fly in my yard, I don't see much use. If I had a closer club (Over 20 mi), I would join just to hang out and swap stories like all pilots do. Cost is probably the second factor on my list. Maybe they could have a seperate class to join with for non-sanctioned flying???

[RicVaughn]

Hello everyone,

My name is Ric Vaughn and I am the NEAC pres. which is the electric SIG for the AMA. Let me add a couple of my thoughts.
This thread has got off the main topic a little, and I want to bring up one more off topic idea you all need to think about.
1. I see the parkflyers as a whole seperate group of eflyers. I'm afraid many, not all, want to fly when they want, how they want, and where they want. Some are very proud that they have no AMA contact. Sad to say, I know of a couple of planes that have been shot down by parkflyers who had no clue that they even caused the problem. I really don't know how to bring them into the fold.
2 I'm a sailplaner by nature, but I have had no problems at my home club mixing my flying with all the "slimers." I get along with all of the club members, and they will let me have the field for about 7 min. to fly by myself to practice landings.
3 Off topic, but important, You all should try to get as many pilots to join the AMA as soon as possible. We need a unified voice to keep our right to fly peroid! With the new unmanned planes, not to mention the Atlantic crossing that just happen, there is a very real possibility of the loss of ALL model flying!

Back to the orginal thread, electric planes now can do anything a gas plane can do, and do it with a very low noise signature. We all know noise is the killer of flying fields. I think many will convert to electic to keep flying. It not a better or worse choice, but a "different" choice. Electric will let many people continue with the sport.

Ric

[Larry Dudeck]

"We need a unified voice to keep our right to fly..."

The operative word in this statement is "right". Ric, I believe you are mistaken. Our use of the RF frequencies we have is a "privelege", not a right.

We can lose it any time the government (FAA, FCC, Dept. of HOMELAND SEC.) decides it is time.

This is why we all...e-fliers, glow, gas, turbine, park, etc., etc...
should support the AMA.

Without the privelege of our narrow RF band everything we fly, from the $100 park flyer to the $10,000 turbine powered whatever, becomes just so much worthless hardware.

Might as well build static models.

[rpage53]

Its pretty rare for the end users to lobby for frequency allocation. I don't remember joining an FRS association and I'm not too worried about those frequencies disappearing. The manufacturer base has grown tremendously since "parkfliers" became available. They are the ones that will loose if the hobby was shut down and should maintain the frequency allocation.

So if the industry isn't lobbying on your behalf (I'm Canadian) you should put pressure on them to fund the AMA. The AMA should also identify that they represent the interests of X (say 2,000,000) fliers of which Y (say 10%) have joined.

If the AMA wants the majority of fliers to join I would suggest they make the insurance an optional extra, the magazine free with industry support, and base membership dirt cheap. Its called turning a threat into an opportunity.

Only offering this hoping someone can benefit,
Rick.

[Red Scholefield]

Originally posted by pda4you
That is incorrect. Thanks but my Jr years are well behind me:).

Open membership:

2004 = $58
2003 = $47 (from memory)
2002 = $40 something can't remember the exact amount.

Dave Brown has addressed it several times in his article.

Mike

That's odd, I just checked my records and since 1995 the dues were $48 for open members, just raised to $58 this year for 2004.

Red S.
AMA 951

[Miami Mike]

Originally posted by Red Scholefield
That's odd, I just checked my records and since 1995 the dues were $48 for open members, just raised to $58 this year for 2004.It sure is odd. I just checked my credit card bills, and on September 11, 2002, I was charged $58 for my 2003 AMA membership. I even have some old copies of the 2003 membership applications right here in front of me and they definitely say $58 for an open membership.

I did notice one thing on those old applications though. If you were over 65 years old by July 1, 2003, you were allowed to take a $10 deduction in dues. That didn't apply to me, but perhaps it applied to you.

[Red Scholefield]

Originally posted by sparks
This might be a can of worms but I'm going to open it any way.
I train about 3 new pilots per year now that the electrics have grown in popularity.
SNIP

In the past two years, I've seen 3 of my long time glow power flying buddies switch to electric, sell their glow stuff, and drop from sight of the AMA radar. When asked about why, the reasons are about the same.
SNIP

MY QUESTION IS: Am I the only one seeing this? Has there been a drop in membership?

The same question came up when they started adding gas engines in models that had been flown with rubber bands. And again when the brothers Good set the hobby on its collective ear by contolling a model via radio signals. Horrors!

The change in membership has very little to do with technology, if anything changes in technology have enable technically challenged people to enjoy the hobby without really having to go through the agony of defeat learning the basics of gluing sticks together and soldering a bunch of mysterious parts in a fashion in to make a radio.

It has to do with our chaning values, the need for instant gratification, the loss of luster of "gee look - an airplane" that your "seasoned' modelers grew up with. 1-10000 youngsters today (under the age of 50) know the difference between a biplane and a monoplane, or who Rosco Turner or Jimmy Allen were - ask them who Eddie Rickenbacker was. Airplanes just ain't cool or the people that flew them!

This hobby like other "guy hobbies" is suffering from decline in membership. Ask your buddy in the local gun club how things are going at the range - if they still have one. There is just too much competition for the liesure dollar and time (what little is left in the present economy) to spend it doing "hard" things that require a modicum of dedication along with a fair (as perceived by those looking in) chunk of change.

Lets learn to live with it . . . and do all we can to preserve whats left for the few that care. :)

Red S.
AMA 951

[leccyflyer]

Originally posted by Red Scholefield
This hobby like other "guy hobbies" is suffering from decline in membership.

That's curious because my impression is that the R/C part of the hobby is expanding and the numbers involved in it are getting larger, rather than smaller. The technology, specifically parkflyers, smaller models, ARTFs and helicopters appears to have reversed the trend of decline and, over on this side of the water at least, membership of the national body is increasing rather than decreasing. Is that not the case for the AMA?

The chances of success with small, lightweight electric parkflyers is an order of magnitude higher than it was with the heavyweight, 60mph, .60-powered full house trainer meaning that more people are likely to stay with the hobby rather than fall at the first hurdle. The parkflyer revolution also seems to have reversed the trend that model flying had gone along of being progressively moved away from the population and out of sight, due primarily to noise issues. The average man in the street is probably much more likely to encounter an R/C aeroplane in his normal daily routine than he was 10 years ago. His entry to the hobby, if he proves to be interested in following up that chance encounter, is simpler, more straightforward, quicker and has a better chance of success than previously.

Whether the Parkflyer revolution has a completely positive or partly negative effect on the hobby lies largely in the hands of those doing the parkflying. If they behave responsibly and safely they are likely to be marvelous ambassadors for the hobby- they have the potential to bring modelling right in among the general public, with a good positive impression that it is a worthwhile and enjoyable pastime. OTOH if they are reckless, thoughtless and dangerous, their closer proximity to the public may have a detrimental effect on the hobby beyond the confines of the local park. That's why it's important that we all realise that we are in this hobby together and why it is desireable for all flyers to be a member of their national body so that we can work together to ensure the survival and expansion of the hobby.

Brian

[reills]

Here, here!

[jmf2001]

Yes I think the AMA dues are high. But the question is how high will it go. As for the park flyers and the electrics if it wasen't for all the work the AMA has done in the past regarding frequencies, band whith and good public relations perhaps we woulden't have park flyers today. Regardless what people say the AMA has it's benefits. The magazine may not be the greatest but it gets the job done. What other modeling magazine offers membership in an organization?
I recentely had one of these so called park flyer guys come down and fly at our club flying site. At the site we have a 3/4 mile by 50 foot runway. A 60x26 foot shade area. The floor is all cement. Three tables to put your planes on, a pit to cook hamburgers, a latrine. You don't have to go pee in the woods. Last week we purchaced a new tractor. It cost $ 1,300.00. All of this comes out of the money our guys pay to be members. The AMA has set up the safety ruels for everyone to follow. Plus the magazine gives the members many things to discuss.
When I told this park flyer he had to join the AMA and join our club he said no. So I said find some were else to fly.

As far as Im concerned the bottom line is if you can afford a model airplane be electric, glow or gas then you can afford to join the AMA.
Enough said.

[PlasticHead]

It seems to me when hobby/sport organizations are around for a long time without competition from similar organizations they tend to become stale and inflexible, unable progress with the hobby/sport and even creating rules and regulations that inhibit the sports growth. I think electric and 3D flight will eventually become so popular relative to fuel airplanes that either the AMA will have to go through drastic changes or will be supplanted by a newer more progressive organization that caters to the needs of those types of flyers. I know the AMA has done a huge amount of stuff to help RC flight get to where it is today. I personally have not felt the need for AMA membership and am humored by those who stare at me aghast at the idea of flying RC without an AMA card. I have joined similar organizations with other sports and discovered their benefits and draw backs. At this point I am perfectly capable of enjoying the sport without the AMA's involvement or control. I fly six days a week, sometimes twice a day and have been doing this for a year going from barely keeping a 12 oz foamy in the air to hovering a 12 oz foamy for a full twelve minute flight while doing tail touches (don't tell the AMA). The most immediate people responsible for my being able to do this are innovative electric airplane manufacturers both big and small from GWS to Mathew Orme of Razor Motor fame not the AMA. Finally although many people believe there would not be RC flight without the AMA there would definitly be no AMA without RC Flyers. The future of RC Flight is electric flight.

Bill

[nose_first]

one more thing to remember - just because i pay $58 for my AMA, doenst mean i can go to any club and fly away. yes, many clubs have 'guest' policies where i could go fly for the day or maybe even a short while, but eventually i will have to join their club.

a quick survey of clubs in my area shows that i will need about $75 in initiation fees (some more or less) and around the same for a yearly membership. so for a little more than $200, i can now be granted the privledge to fly at the field.

more info needs to be there as to the benefits to joining. to many people, that $200 isnt much less than they spent to get their parkflier. i am fortunte that my family has the disposable income to support my hobbies (you think planes get expensive - try looking for NOS parts for a car where you need a certain date code :) ) but as others have mentioned - not everyone is willing to join a club when you can just go buy the plane without membership.

so do the politics stink - of course - we argue about similar things in the mustang club of america (and i will bet several other clubs like AMA where you send a check across the country to get a newsletter type magazine) - but if some would give an answer as to why to join AMA with something other than insurance (which is what the response i bet would be more times than not when a newbie asks about joining a local club) maybe more people would join - then again - if the people at the clubs talk about your 'toy' plane and how someday you can 'step up to a real plane' - maybe people will continue to shun them.

[Jim Branaum]

Nose_first,
Please take a look here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156063


I think that addresses your issue about "why join the AMA" without going too much into the insurance issue.

[nose_first]

Jim - youre preaching to the choir - the issue is not everyone looks through here before getting into the hobby... and most times, your intro to AMA is with someone at a flying field and unless they are talking all of this info, you get the 'we require it for the insurance' spiel

[jmf2001]

Hi guys. I am into model aviation. I really don't care if it is a glider, free flight, control line, Jet, pylon or park fliers. It is the (hobby sport) that I am interested in. And yes it is true that you can fly any kind of model airplane anywere and by yourself. Some guys may like to do that but I think that most people involved in any kind o modeling Planes. boats, cars or your park flyers gets more enjoyment when they can do it with people who have the same interests. However since most guys and gals involved in model aviation are some kind of r/c flier then you need some place to fly were you have good facalities sunh as a runway, shade area, some kind of toilet facalities and of course a parking area. Not everyone has access to these areas for his or her personal use. So what do we do? We get a couple of guys together and form some kind of a club or organization. By doing that sometimes we creat a problem. Most of us don't have the space required for this activity on our own land so we look for a flying site. And I am sure that you all know that the name of the game today is sue if you have a problem. So that is were the AMA comes in. Insurance however the AMA also does other things that some of us don't give them credit for. So now we have insurance we have a place to fly so lets go. But sometimes it's not easy. We need all the items I mentioned and in order to get them we need funds. Were do we get the funds? From the guys and gals that have formed and organized these facalities.
Everyone always seams to complain about what the AMA does and dosen't do. But when it comes election time were in blazes are they.
Have fun guys fly what you want and were you want. But please be careful.

[ctdahle]

I haven't flown at an AMA sanctioned club site in the last four years. Until last fall, when I started flying electrics, I flew at a county owned field, and the county hasn't brought up the issue of insurance, yet.

But I pay my AMA dues annually and also have a membership for my 1 year old, which gets me an extra copy of the magazine that I donate to the public library.

Since none of the places I fly, gas, or electric, require AMA membership, it might seem logical to drop it, but the truth is that I think the magazine is pretty good, although lately it has slipped away from the technical and craftsmanship articles I most enjoy. I also support the policy/lobbying work that the AMA does, because I well remember the days of 27 Mhz radios. Also the mere existance of AMA lends a degree of credibility to our activities when a neighbor wants to ground your parkflyer.

Oh, and I get a cool window decal too!

[FletchNJ]

Well here is a little input from a 40-something year old newbie if your interested:

My wonderful wife just bought a NexSTAR as an early christmas present. I have my private pilot ticket, but have not flown for the past 10 years due to other priorities in life. I think she believes this will help calm the 'itch' for altitude.

Anyway, the first thing I did was scour the net, read up on the clubs in the area, and search for an instructor. I live in the wide open, and probably could have gotten myself up in the air, but I am joining the AMA anyway. Why? Part of the purpose of this hobby/sport are the friends, knowledge, experience, and good times a club brings. Is the AMA evil? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Really I could care less. One thing they ARE is the backbone that provides a group of people with common interests a bit of direction and belonging.

As for electrics, yeah, I bought one of those as well. What better way to get a little air 'quickie' after work in the back yard, or the local field without the complications of getting a glow out to a field that is NOT close to the house.

My electric is to play with, my glow is to fly with. My electric is for my 5 year old to practice on so she won't destroy my glow before I'm ready to upgrade.

Remember: It's all about air, not how you get there. The club I am joining is only $15 a year. A loose group of folks that just love to fly and leave the politics behind. The folks there have glows and electrics, and some days fly both. As for me, I just love to fly.


Hope to see you in the field, so I can buy you a cup of coffee and talk about airplanes, not politics.

[PlasticHead]

There is a common fuel/AMA attitude; Electrics are toys, Fuel planes are "real" airplanes, and here is my slightly defensive reply, Neither my electric .40 size Magic 3D or my 27" wingspan pylon racer (109 mph) are toys they are both to fly and fly with skill and care. From my point of view your Nexstar is a "toy" but under normal circumstances I would never say so.

Bill

[ctdahle]

Hi Rotten,

I think you are right that there is an "electric=toy" perception out there, but I also think that when electrics were just getting started, Model Aviation was the only major publication that consistently acted as a clearing house for electric information.

AMA serves a vital function in collecting and circulating obscure bits of information about odd ball aspects of the hobby. Yet these little, obscure bits can form the nucleus of whole new realms of modeling activity.

So much of what made the early electrics possible grew out of the lightweight techniques of indoor and outdoor rubber powered free flight models. Things like folding props and gear reduction came out of the free flight arena for example. For a long time Model Aviation, and the AMA through the SIGs kept interests in these areas going while the rest of the model world was fixated on the ever faster, larger, more powerful R/C models.

I know that many people barf when they read an article on how to be competitive in Wakefield or ornithopter, but its the enthusiasts in these areas that find the innovations in methods and materials that make other aspects of the hobby more enjoyable.

The more commercial publications tend not to mention the real innovations in the hobby until they become commercially viable and can help generate ad revenue. The AMA, through it's Model Aviation magazine is more like a scholarly journal, and much information found there has no commercial application...yet.

[Jim Branaum]

Originally posted by ctdahle

SNIP

The more commercial publications tend not to mention the real innovations in the hobby until they become commercially viable and can help generate ad revenue. The AMA, through it's Model Aviation magazine is more like a scholarly journal, and much information found there has no commercial application...yet.

Many smaller publications cannot afford too much ink, space, or writer effort on something that will not draw additional revenue from advertising when the article is written or in the near future. With some things that MA covers, the chances of serious advertising dollars are slim and none. That means that within our hobby, MA properly fills a needed niche.

I write an occasional article for one of those commercial magazines that serves a small segment of our hobby and your observation is true. Many small vendors (frequently with neat and tricky products) are generally ignored by the publishers because they do not wish to waste valuable resources on what may turn out to be a 'fly by night' operation. Requiring advertising to get articles written is one way to filter the probably unsuccessful from the growing vendor who has a plan.

Tough world, but at least it makes sense.

[PlasticHead]

ctdahle,

Electrics may have grown out of "odd ball" aspects of mainstream RC flight but that is not what has driven the activity. In my view two things have driven the RC Electric hobby/sport, 1. People who do not want to be bound by rigid restrictions, regulations and locations and wanted to avoid people who believe their way is the only way and who rail against people who who want to fly RC differently, or maybe it's easier just to say freedom to fly what they want to fly when they want to. 2. Innovative manufacturers large and small that have made electric planes fly amazingly well. The majority of information i get is from the people who manufacture and sell the equipment I need for my hobby habit not the MA publication. I also doubt Electric RC mags have any trouble selling ad space to GWS, Global Hobbies etc.

I hate to generalize people as I did in reason 1., but I did it to make a point, many of my friends fly fuel planes and my favorite two people at my LHS fly fuel RC.

Bill

[reills]

If e-flight planes are toys, then I am PROUD to say that I play with toys (and get to play much more than those wet people).

[Lightnin]

Rotten,
I am going to respectfully disagree with your point of view. We just started an electric club and there were lots of questions about AMA insurance coverage so forth and so on. Anyway, not only did I get an interesting reply and will subsequently join AMA, I found some interesting documents on the AMA site. Here is one.
***********************************
Academy of Model Aeronautics
5161 E. Memorial Drive Muncie IN 47302 • loisp@modelaircraft.org
(765) 287-1256 • Fax (765)741-0057
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR AMA CHARTERED
CLUBS IN PARTNERING WITH PARK FLYERS
• Be aware: Determine potential flying sites for park flyers within a 3-mile
radius of your club’s flying site. Examples might be parks, parking lots, playgrounds,
farm fields, ball fields, etc.
Keep in mind that the greatest threat comes from those flying who have no
prior experience with Radio Control models. Knowing this may help in qualifying
potential sites.
• Be pro-active: Establish a “committee” of club members to keep track of
activities taking place at the locations determined to be likely park flyer sites.
These committee members must be willing to devote the time and effort
necessary. They must be members who exhibit good people skills; i.e., diplomatic,
polite, courteous, and understanding.
• Be a source of assistance: Your introduction of yourself should be followed
with an offer of free assistance for the new flier. This assistance should take
the form of an offer to check the aircraft for airworthiness, getting the aircraft
into the air successfully, and distributing information pertinent to flying Radio
Control aircraft—all in a safe environment.
Encourage questions and be prepared to give clear, concise, and easily
understood answers. Do not treat park flyer pilots as anything but equal.
• Be a partner: Contact the hobby shops and offer the printed information provided
by the AMA to hand out to each person purchasing a park flyer. Also
provide them with printed information about the club, which includes an invitation
to the club field and the offer of assistance in learning to enjoy a new
park flyer.
A clearly drawn map to the club field is a necessary part of this handout.
***********************************
It appears that the only folks who see park flyers as toys are individuals in local AMA groups. It looks to me like the official AMA stance is in opposition to park flyers being regarded as anything but equals. Don't get me wrong I don't want a flame war. However, the sooner that people get over treating poeple who fly parkflyers like second class citizens the better off the HOBBY will be and the stronger AMA will be.

We recently had a fly-in where, I observed large electrics (one had a wingspan of 110") that could do anything a gas powered plane and stay up longer, "yes thats right longer" than a gas plane ever could. And many comments where made to this fact. Just ask the manufacturers, the fastest growing section of RC flight is electric and the limits of electric flight are no where in site. All of this points to the reality that electrics are here to stay and will only become a larger and larger portion of the hobby. Electric pilots are going to continue to fly their models with or without support and participation of local clubs. That said, I think it is easy to see that if atitudes don't change the rift will only get larger and larger and local clubs will suffer for it. Those of us that can see this need to work together to get gas and electric flyers treating eachother with mutual respect and working together to advance the hobby.

[PlasticHead]

Lightnin,

I am not sure how you are disagreeing with what I said, maybe you can make that clearer. I did like the AMA section which stated that new clubs should find where local parkflyer activity is. I would not like to see a club start that would interfere with already established parkflyer activity. But again the AMA is referring to parkflyers, not all of my electrics are parkflyers. Although I have flown my electric 40 size Magic 3D at larger parks I doubt it would be considered a "Parkflyer" in the strict sense and the same would apply to my brushless powered VIP pylon plane. So at what point does the AMA distinguish Parkflyers from Electrics? At the bottom where you state that you had a fly in with big electrics thats great I wish I could have been there.

My point in what I said (really a conterpoint to what ctdahle said) was that I really don't think the AMA was the driving force behind the current electric RC explosion, It was the people (non AMA) who want the freedom of electrics and the manufacturers big and small who developed electrics to fly the way they currently can. I also believe there is a pervasive attitude with AMA members who fly fuel planes the electrics are toys and electric RC pilots are second class citizens. I think part of that comes from a dislike of the fact that Electrics can be flown a lot more freely than fuel planes.

BTW I fly everyday and twice a day often. I have 3D electrics that I can fly for 20 minutes. My replacement for the Magic 3D I just sold (to a glow guy :D ), another .40 size should get 14-18 minute flight times.

Bill

[jmf2001]

I don't consider park flyers or any other type of a model airplane that goes into the air as a toy. I consider all types of models as equals and respect them all the same. Fun and dangerous. I don't care what kind of model you fly or how it is powered. Im glad that you enjoy what you are flying. The same type of caution she be carried out regardles of how the model is powered, Rubber, Gas, or electric. All of them can hurt if youa are hit by one. No matter what you fly if there are agroup doing it then what is wrong with making some rules and regulations. And if we only want to consider The AMA for insurance isint it worth a few bucks to know that you are covered in the event of an accident. And lets not kid ourselves The AMA is more than just insurance.

If you have a couple of guys flying isn't it nice to have a runway ( don't tell me about hand launch) a shade area a latrine and a bunce of guys who have the same interests. It all makes the day more interesting.

When I lived in New York ( a long time ago) I took my son out to fly a free flight 1/a gas free flight model. The plane flew great. However when it landed near the road were we were flying some car stopped and picked the model up, put it in the car and spead off. My son was heart broken to say the least. Had I been flying in an area were more modelers were flying I am sure that what happened would not occured.

Bottom line. Fly what ever you want. No problem. But I think the AMA is the way to go.

[PlasticHead]

I feel the need to say more :)

One point I would like to make is that at this point I have no desire to join a club. This is personal and it has to a lot to do with the fact I have two small children (2 & 5) and a full time career and don't have time to dedicate to a club. I have an RC social structure from the two areas I fly at but none of us feel the need to make a "club" we do help establish unwritten rules about radio channels which is an obvious necessity and we try not to run into each others aircraft while flying. I also tend to be resistant to organizations which you "must" join in order to enjoy a hobby or sport. I am very independent minded and tend to like to do things myself. The argument that I should join because the AMA has done so much in the past to establish RC flight is complete nonsense. What was done in the past is done and paid for in the past by those in the past who wanted to do it. This does not mean I don't appreciate it but I am not paying for it. I don't pay taxes now to pay for G. Washington's boat to cross the Delaware I pay taxes for what we do now.

Regarding the AMA and including what I have said in this thread previously I feel the AMA is trying to force fit Electric RC flight into their long established framework and I think it is a very poor fit. I think The AMA needs to seriously rethink their approach to electrics.

Finally... I have one idea for the AMA that might put them on the good side of "parkflyers" (ugh that term again) and make the club flyers happy also. The AMA should put there established members and employees to work to keep a dynamic map of both club flying fields and parks where people are known to fly. This should be available on the Internet and updated regularly (i.e. daily or at least weekly) and sent to all (AMA member or not) Hobby stores who sell RC airplanes, monthly in paper format to be made available to customers. This service should be free of charge or membership to anyone who wants to utilize it. I have two LHS's in my immediate area one has an established relationship with the local glow field (holds meetings at the shop) and the other has a relationship with an AMA sailplane club that flys at the Highschool on Sundays. They both new about and mentioned the Glow field but only the one new and mentioned the Sailplane club. The glow field is 8 miles away from the parks where I live but the Highschool is only 1 mile away, if I went to the closest hobby shop and asked they wouldn't know to tell me. This idea would benefit everyone and let the parkflyers know someone is looking out for them. I would join ithe AMA if they were to do this, but they wouldn't need my money because they could put advertisements on the web site to pay for it. Every day I fly I would check it to see where people are flying and I would add where I was flying. Simple and effective.

Bill

[Lightnin]

Maybe I mis understood...

But here are my main points.

1. An electric model including "parkflyers" will kill you just as dead as a gas one. They are just as dangerous and are not toys by any means.

2. The AMA whether you like it or not actively works to keep this hobby available to all RC flyers.

3. AMA insurance will cover your butt as long as you do your best to observe the basic flight rules EVEN IF YOU FLY IN A PARK. I verified this myself with AMA.

4. A certain amount of "electric’s hurting AMA" has to do with AMA gas flyers treating them like second class citizens. I will have nothing to do with local gas flyers because of this very thing.

5. Yes, we have started a club for electric’s here partly because the local gas club refuses to treat us on equal footing. However, we have no officers, we have no dues, everything is about a great bunch of guys who like to fly together and we are willing to fight to keep it that way. We are doing everything we can to fight the traditional "club" mentality. At this point the club is not going to force anyone to join AMA, but I am, and several others are because we like the insurance and the ability to fly other places.

6. If you want to fly at fly-ins or other organized functions you must have your AMA card.

7. We need to work to get over this stupid stereotyping and be able to enjoy the hobby as a whole. It is crazy to have two splinter groups operating in the same area all because of ego trips and silly semantics. After all, gas or electric we all love flying and that should be enough to unite us. I think that if gas flyers (not all of them, but many) continue to shun electric’s and park flyers, and view them as a threat, it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy in the future. That's not positive or progressive and will only hurt the hobby as a whole. And I love our hobby! I am stepping off my soapbox now.
:D
I like your ideas, I think they are great! I won't join AMA because of what they have done in the past either. I will join for the insurance and what they are doing now and in the future and to have the ability to fly other places. :D

[PlasticHead]

Lightin,

I am with you on most points I just don't see what the AMA has done to further my activity in the sport (I am ignoring the insurance thing as many AMA promotors like to say that is a side benefit and should not be the main reason, I can get insurance elseware) None of the things you or anyone else has listed has changed my opinion.

"1. An electric model including "parkflyers" will kill you just as dead as a gas one. They are just as dangerous and are not toys by any means."

While my pylon racer and .40 size 3D plane could potentially kill someone, my 7.5 oz. foam HD3D plane couldn't kill anyone (Cause a heartattack from scaring someone maybe? more likely to get hit by a baseball from the neighboring field). I will volunteer to get hit full spead (diving even) with a stock GWS litestick (I will wear glasses) (Must have rubber nose cone. I don't fly with people on the field I fly on. All right I will fly the HD3D when there playng soccer but I always leave a great deal of distance between me and them all I really do with it is hover. More likely I get hit by there ball (I almost have).

"2. The AMA whether you like it or not actively works to keep this hobby available to all RC flyers."

To imply that I don't like the AMA promoting the activity is flat wrong. Please hold arguments to things I actually say.


Just to make it clear I have nothing against people joining the AMA it doesn't hurt anyone go for it but don't imply that it is a necessity for me to join and understand I don't believe they are doing much for electric flight as I involve myself in it.

Bill

[FletchNJ]

I just want to clarify something I said before.

MY ELECTRIC is to play with. It's a cheap, low quality, probably will break soon, under $50 plane.

I certainly respect those that spend time and effort on their quality electrics, and have seen quite a few that I would rather own than my NexSTAR.

I did not that ALL electrics are toys RoTTen, in fact I never used the term TOY in my post, sorry you took it that way.

I was saying that I bought an electric to go play with, by that I mean just go play around where ever I could, when ever I could.

Would I do a competition with MY electric? No way!
Would I do it with AN electric? Certainly!

I appreciate your point, but don't put words in my mouth.

[ctdahle]

Actually, for me, like my skis, my power tools, and my antique stereo gear, they are all toys.

But seriously Bill. The current interest in electrics is being driven by innovative manufacturers and individuals as you say. And as another poster implies, electrics have finally reached the saturation point where they can swim on their own in the commercial main stream.

But I think you need to be aware that for twenty years or more, developments in electrics were mostly reported in Model Aviation, or not at all. (Although I do remember a few articles by Bob Boucher in mid seventies issues of RCM).

Even five years ago there was little or no mainstream coverage of electrics, except buried in the pages of MA. Until very recently, the commercial world has been busy with giant scale. Had that clearing house coverage from MA not been there, you would likely not be enjoying your electrics as you do now.

It is hard to know what the next interesting trend in aeromodelling will be, but probably it is buried in the pages of this month's issue of MA. It's kind of fun to see how the guys that are truly innovative think and share their ideas.

Finally, when your social group at the park starts getting the bum's rush from the local constabulary, you will almost certainly find it necessary to form a club, if not a corporation, provide a certificate of insurance, and enter into an operating agreement with your municipality. When that happens, I suspect your lawyer will almost certainly be requesting information from the AMA since they have already written the boilerplate.

[PlasticHead]

ctdahle,

Points well taken! Yes all are toys in the end. I was more responding to the context i.e. fuel vs electric. In all the credit being tossed about I had been thinking that sailplaners should receive some credit towards electric flight devolopment as it seems to me (I don't know the history) they were likely the ones to bring electric flight into the mainstream as they have a very real use for electric power

I tend to believe that electric would develop irregardless of existing RC Flight people or organizations (AMA) from manufacturers of the small low powered RTF planes they sell at toy stores (adn hobby stores) that use different radio channels. Similar to the remote control cars they have been selling for years at toy stores and radio shack.

Bill

[Lightnin]

Ok, I can see where we are getting our signals crossed Rotten.

1. An electric model including "parkflyers" will kill you just as dead as a gas one. They are just as dangerous and are not toys by any means."

***This is a point I think we can agree to disagree on. In another thread in open, a comment was made about how a prop strike in the eye could do major damage or cause death. Think of it in terms of kenetic energy, 15oz moving at 50mph will do more damage than you think.*****

"2. The AMA whether you like it or not actively works to keep this hobby available to all RC flyers."

***I need to re-write this, I meant- Whether or not you like the AMA, it actively works to keep this hobby available to all RC flyers.***

I never meant to say that you must join AMA, its a personal decision. I am a convert, I used to say the same things untill I did my homework. And unless you have unlimited funds to settle lawsuits, I find it hard to think that the benifits are not self evident but that is just me. Check out this thread.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172197

Best regards.

[PlasticHead]

Lightnin

The only way to get a stock litestick to weigh 15 oz is to add 5oz of lead weight at which point it will probably won't fly. The only way to get hit with a litestick at 50 miles an hour is add the 5oz's of lead weight, tear off the wings and tail feathers and throw it off a tall building. In either instance you really aren't flying any more. It is extremely hard to make absolute statements such as "An electric model including "parkflyers" will kill you just as dead as a gas one." It is simply not true because there are so many possible variables. There are people that build ultra light weight airplanes that weight less than 3 oz's and I don't care how you fly them about the only weigh to kill someone with it is to get them to choke on the pieces after you crash it. Until recently one of my favorite planes was a T3D, I got the weight of mine down to 4.3 ounces. Tell me how I am going to kill someone with that? Top speed was about 12 miles an hour and I could stop the prop with my bare hands at full throttle. Absolutes are rarely (if ever absolute). Sorry to ride that one but it honestly is a silly statement.

On statement 2. point is taken. Although I don't necessarily agree with the "All RC flyers" part but there we can agree to disagree. That is the point of what I have wrote previously on this thread.


Regarding the insurance I really don't like the argument that insurance is the reason to join the AMA in this context because then all the AMA is is an insurance provider. I am not saying it is not a reason to join, I just don't think it's relavent to this discussion. My wife requires personal liability insurance for her line of work and I just add myself on, it costs almost nothing. If I join the AMA it won't be because I "did my homework" I have done my homework and will continue to do it, learning is a never ending process. It will be because I find value in it and there are many types of value.

Bill

[ctdahle]

Bill, you are certainly correct about the sailplane flyers too. Electric flight has lots of daddys. I'm just glad there is a place where all the harebrained ideas get written down and digested by a significant number of modelers. Right now I'm kind of intrigued by the discus launch sailplanes.

As far as a slowstick killing anyone, I agree it's unlikely, but you don't have to get much bigger to have a pretty lethal machine. Speed 400 on 10 cells can put enough spin on a prop to take a finger.

But I agree that viewing AMA solely as an insurance provider is not appropriate. Anyway, I expect the AMA will be there if and when you decide that joining would be a good idea, and if you don't ever decide to join, well, I suspect the AMA will get along OK anyway! Great thing about living in a free country I reckon.

[PlasticHead]

I caught the side of my hand with my astro 020 powered pylon once on spin up (accidental spinup) and I got about 20 cuts real quick, still have a scar. That is a plane I fly with no one around. My Magic 3D has a sharp 18" prop on it that I have to be very careful with. I absolutly agree with the danger of many RC Airplanes I was disputing the blanket statement that was made.

Bill

[leccyflyer]

Originally posted by jmf2001
. When I lived in New York ( a long time ago) I took my son out to fly a free flight 1/a gas free flight model. The plane flew great. However when it landed near the road were we were flying some car stopped and picked the model up, put it in the car and spead off. My son was heart broken to say the least. Had I been flying in an area were more modelers were flying I am sure that what happened would not occured.


Just to illustrate that there really aren't any absolutes we had just that happen at our club field a couple of years ago. There were probably 15 flyers there at the time. One of the member's grandson (also a member) clipped some powerlines with his .40 powered sports model, which instantly lost all airspeed and dropped to the ground just outside the perimeter fence. This was about 100m from the pilot's box (it was a tight site- but official with rent payed to the landlord, planning permission, insurance etc). By the time they had got to the fenceline a car had stopped, the occupants had plucked the model from the ground and driven off with it, never to be seen again.

I understand that subsequently the granddad was able to claim on the theft portion of his homeowner's insurance and recover the full cost of the lost model, engine and radio gear, but the incident left a bad taste in the mouth about what some people will do nowadays.

Brian

[Jim Branaum]

Brian,
It is reports that end like your last one did that make me feel stupid. Years ago I had a plane go down in a similar manner, just outside a fence next to the road about 100 yards away. As we approached the fence, a car drove off and the model was never found. I never thought of filing a claim, but I DID buy the engine (had my initials under the lugs) back at a flea market about 2 months later for $7.

[Lightnin]

RoTTen,

Ok, let’s re-examine our example.

A 10 oz litesitck traveling at 10 mph generates 56 inch pounds of force. Now take into consideration that the force in focused at the point of a spinner or worse the prop shaft, we will be conservative and say it is a centimeter in diameter; that is 142.24 centimeter pounds of force. More than enough to puncture your eye and would probably penetrate your skull.

I was using the insurance as one example, are you sure that your personal liability covers RC model flying?

But really that's not the point. My point is more overt. What you do when you fly models has the potential to affect all of us that fly. You might say, well that doesn't concern me. Does how you drive your car concern me, yes it does. That is why we have duties and rights in the US in the form of LAW. Now if drivers would have agreed through membership, to self regulate their activities we would not have many of the silly laws about driving an automobile we have today and much less regulation over all. Now I realize that this opens the door for all kinds of splinter arguments but boil it down and they are of no real consequence. However, what model flyers choose to do, reflects and impacts upon all other model flyers, this is fact. Yes, we can all be independent and do our "own thing", or we can look at the truth in the idea of the "greater good".

I have no illusions about forcing someone to appreciate of believe what I would like them to. However, I believe this discussion has been fruitful. Your points have made me re-examine and strengthened "why" I believe what I believe. And, I have had the opportunity to expose you to another point of view that I hope you can appreciate objectively.

Best regards.:D

[rpage53]

Originally posted by Lightnin
A 10 oz litesitck traveling at 10 mph generates 56 inch pounds of force. ... More than enough to puncture your eye and would probably penetrate your skull.
This kind of fear mongering is very detrimental. In testing rubber bullets, the US Army considered that anything less than 30 ft-lb in a projectile will not cause serious damage (eyes are special cases). The Lite Stik has a rubber spinner. Even without it, the shaft is unlikely to penetrate skin of your palm at 10 mph (I've done it).

We encourage people to fly safely at all times, regardless of the plane. Small, light, slow planes are clearly safer.

Rick.

[PlasticHead]

Lightnin,

Good arguments! Remember the AMA is an organization that promotes a hobby and may lobby for laws and regulations that could benefit the hobby but they have nothing to do with the "lawfulness" of RC Flying (that I know of). There is nothing unlawful of flying RC independent of the AMA. If you are arguing that the reason to join the AMA is for insurance it minimizes everything else the AMA does and probably isn't the reason the AMA wants a person to join. I have a full awareness of my responsibilities regarding the society I live in and the country I live in, not joining the AMA does not make me irresponsible in fact it makes me more responsible, I make my self fully responsible for the activities I participate in not some organization that promotes the activity. Also not joining the AMA does not make it more likely that I will injure someone with an airplane it just makes me more responsible if that happens. From that point of view maybe AMA members are irresponsible :eek: :D .

Really at this point we are arguing for personal beliefs which is subjective and I don't want to say my personal beliefs are better or worse than anyone elses or the reverse. The objective arguments are fun but to be honest don't have terribly strong feelings for or against the AMA (It's just a hobby!) (Alright an addictive hobby) (AA for recovering flyers please) but I some times get the feeling that people get a somewhat mindless idea that the AMA is required for RC flying or they don't think about why they are joining they just do and find it abhorrant that someone else did not. Which is all getting away from my original arguments of whether the AMA is doing the right thing for Electric RC.

I really have got to get back to work, this was fun and a good exercise in thinking about why we do what we do and don't take too much of this to heart it was fun! (not as much fun as flying).

BTW I am still willing to take that shot from a Litestick just no lithiums they might explode on me :) .

Happy Holidays,
Bill

[PlasticHead]

Originally posted by rpage53
This kind of fear mongering is very detrimental. In testing rubber bullets, the US Army considered that anything less than 30 ft-lb in a projectile will not cause serious damage (eyes are special cases). The Lite Stik has a rubber spinner. Even without it, the shaft is unlikely to penetrate skin of your palm at 10 mph (I've done it).

We encourage people to fly safely at all times, regardless of the plane. Small, light, slow planes are clearly safer.

Rick.

Nice point (Pun Pun :D ) I had a feeling that it didn't add up to much of an impact but I am not a mechanical engineer. I have had some fairly harsh impacts while participating in other more physical hobbies and I just can't find Litesticks to intimidating.

Bill

[Lightnin]

rpage53,

No fear mongering here. Just a genuine desire for folks to start doing the math when they start making decisions about saftey of other people who may be in the area when they fly, instead of guesstimating. If you want to smack yourself in the head with a rubber prop spinner (with a metal shaft behind it) be my guest. But if you are suggesting that we should make that decision for an innocent bystander that bothers me.
i.e. a rubber bullet does not have a metal shaft just behind the tip.:eek: :confused:

[jmf2001]

Guys at this point what you fly is your choice. In regard to the AMa this is still a free country so it is a decision you alone can make. The AMA has done much for the hobby in the past and will continue to do the same in the future. We cannot denie that a lot of were this hobby is today comes from the work the AMA has done in the past. The AMA is not perfect. Then again neither is our goverment. Would you like to live some were else? I know that many fliers fly alone regardless of what kind of power is used.I don't like to see any one( regardless of what you fly ) fly alone. There ar lots of things that can happen when you are somewere alone.
This past Deer hunting season in New York my son and my brother went deer hunting in the catskills. The season opened on Monday. On Tuesday my son shot an 8 point buck and went home that night. The next day my brother who has been hunting for over 50 years shot a 7 point buck. After he shot the deer he started to drag it out of the woods when he slipped on a rock and broke his left ankle. He had a hell of a time getting out of the woods. My point. No matter what kind of activity you do. DONT do it alone. Always have a buddy with you.
Thats it guys. go out and fly. Who cares what you fly have fun and be careful.
Park fliers, Cars, Choppers, Sailplanes, Jets you name it are all welcome at our field. Come on down. we will work something out.

Have a safe happy holiday season.

[PlasticHead]

Please don't compare the AMA, a hobby promoting organization, to our government or imply that flying without an AMA card is the same as not wanting to live in this country. Both are ridiculas analogies. Does not being an AMA member equate to flying alone?

Never go hunting, Scuba diving, snow skiing, mountain biking or ... I can't think of any others but RC Flying??? I almost never fly alone and there are time wish I could but the places I fly there are always people flying.

Some of you guys seriously need to get into some hobbies that have some real physical dangers involved, not just in screwing up but in the normal hobby activity. I raced Mountain Bikes cross country (Mostly) and Downhill (some) and there was always some good healthy danger both to the spectators and the people racing, I used have people a foot from my barend on singletrack where I was just sitting on the edge of control with them screaming in my ear, they loved it, I loved it and I'd being doing it now if I didn't have a full time job and little kids.

I am fully aware of the dangers my airplanes pose to people but I don't with people around (other than other flyers). On the weekends when I fly at the local parks by my house I'm out there at 6:30am while all the good citizens sleep.

Being a member of the AMA is NOT going to stop unsafe people from doing unsafe things, it does not protect you or me from poor judgement or replace good common sense.

Bill

[ctdahle]

I think we have strayed far from the original question, "Do electrics hurt the AMA?" I think the answer is "NO".

The corallary question is, "Does the AMA hurt electrics?" Again, I think the answer is "NO". To the contrary, AMA has fostered the development of electrics by sharing information and by seeking to work with the RCHTA to develop voluntary recommendations for people who manufacture, sell, and fly park flyers to help assure that these are operated in a way that does not negatively impact the whole aeromodelling hobby through radio interference, or the NIMBY factor.

As with any kind of recommendations of this sort, there may be people who percieve these recommendations as limiting their freedom to fly the way thay want.

But like the noise level rules we began to see in the 1970's, by and large, these voluntary rules help save flying sites and comfort local governments and zoning authorities who might otherwise be inclined to regulate the hobby more stringently.

Again, absent lease agreements or other local government constraints that require you to join the AMA, the choice to join is a free and individual one, but keep in mind that if you are approached by the local cop while flying your SlowStick, a copy of your AMA insurance certificate and the safety code could go a long way toward making the officer a flyer rather than the complaining witness in a nuisance suit.

If Mrs. Busibodi accross the street complains to her town trustee about your Firebird, you'd much rather have him be able to say "Yes ma'am, I know all about it. Those guys are insured, and licensed to fly their airplanes, plus they are working with at risk youth and they help our police department with the D.A.R.E. program".

Now if I hurry, I can get home in time to follow JMF's advice, which is the best I've had all day!

Cheers,

Christopher Dahle

[Robert Stinson]

I believe the AMA must recognize and change its rules to accommodate the new differences attendant to electric flight.

An example; a gas-flyer was recently appointed to be a safety monitor at our electric field. He tried to insist that everyone, fom any of the 5 pilot positions on the flight line, keep their planes on the ground during takeoff until the marked lift-off line (pardon my ignorance of the actual term). I can understand this rule for .40 and larger size planes, but it's just silly for the current crop of mini and park sized flyers. For instance, how is an IFO expected to keep to the ground for 50' before ROG? Or a wheel-less glider?

As you may guess, he encountered resistance. His slavish insistence in enforcing a rule that was truly inapplicable was unreasonable and offensive.

I would challenge the AMA to show its acceptance of the "new electric reality" (sounds like a title for a book!) by updating and adapting its regulations accordingly.

Oh, and my .02 ergarding the dues and insurance. For $58 a year, AMA insurance should be primary, and homeowners insurance secondary. Under the current rules, I can't ever imagine making a claim to AMA, so the dues are simply my admission to fly at our club field.

Oh, last thing. I really was tickled by the "you'll put your eye out" arguments. I believe there's a movie involving that phrase, but about a BB gun...

[Robert Stinson]

One's a 3 lb brushless powered plane, one is a 1 lb foam plane. Which one is the toy?

[leccyflyer]

Both of them - very nice toys as well, by the look of them.

Brian

[ctdahle]

Originally posted by Robert Stinson
...everyone...[must]...keep their planes on the ground during takeoff until the marked lift-off line...

Wow Robert, that stinks!

As a gas flyer for 28 years (and electric for 2) I have to say that I have never heard of such a rule for gas or anything else, and I can't imagine why anyone would promulgate a rule like that. It is surely NOT an AMA rule.

For competition purposes some guys try to lift off and touch down on a set line, but that's just to make it pretty.

Only once have I encountered an AMA rule that prevented me from flying the way I wanted. Someone gave me a metal propellor once, and I was told, forcefully, that I couldn't use it. After I learned WHY it was against the rules, I was glad. Absent the rule, I probably would have used it until it killed someone, me for example.

On the AMA insurance question, you can be pretty sure that the dues would be triple or more if the coverage was primary.

Guys with the big, expensive, fast, heavyweight models pretty much have the income, assets, and therefore, insurance to pay for any damage caused by their extremely cool toys. They can afford to insure what they fly through their homeowner's policy. Keeping the individual's insurance as the primary insuror limits how much swimming they do in the same risk pool as us little guys with Speed 400, or .40 sized glow models.

[BGR]

My 2 cents.

The AMA dues are nothing compared to the hundreds or thousands we spend on airplanes and equipment. So the dues from my perspective are a non issue.

Does the AMA insult e-fliers? No individuals do that, why listen to them anyway.

Are electrics hurting the AMA? No they may just be the savior.

If gas is on its way out because of EPA and noise then electrics may just be the future of this hobby and the AMA.

If you are one of those that scoffs at the electrics then it is you that is hurting the AMA, the hobby, and ultimatly yourself. We must embrace the electric revolution with both arms, and we must see electric fliers as equals in this hobby. The only difference is the power plant. The aircraft, the skill, the technology and the love of modeling is the same.

Any RC aircraft can hurt or kill someone. The extent of the injury depends on how the person was hit and the weight and speed of the aircraft.

You will be among the defendants if you hit someone with a light foamy and that person dies not as a result of the injury itself but maybe as a result of slow or late medical care. The law will still hold you among the accountable because you caused the injury in the first place.

[Lightnin]

Golf clap!!!

[PlasticHead]

Originally posted by Lightnin
Golf clap!!!

Golf Clap? What happens when an innocent bystander gets hit with a golf ball set in motion by a Big Bertha wood? :eek:

Please don't answer that I don't want to know :p I am just having a little fun and I need after I just beaned myself in the forehead with a litestick :o :D ok..ok.. Not really....

Seriously Lightnin I was thinking of all the states I have been to and if I sold my overpriced SoCal house I could move to another less expensive state and fly more, so what would be the best state to move to to fly RC? Of the States I have been to I was thinking New Mexico! Is it true? Huge wide open spaces and not to much wind? Or did I not notice and it is windy there? Just a thought, I cannot really uproot my family and leave my job but it's fun to think about...

Bill

[Lightnin]

Well New Mexico is pretty good but the Mesquites are hard on airplanes. You can fly year round here but good, close flying sites can be hard to find and keep. I spent a few days up around Denver last week and those folks have it made. There was so much wide open skies and clear prairie all I could think about was ripping across the skies with my turbo vector. It is true we don't have much for wind here in Las Cruces even in the windy season it doesn't get up untill 10 or 11 most times. So yes it's true we have wide open spaces but big grassy areas are hard to come by being a desert and all. Hmm I wonder if I could make a plane out of Kevlar fly? I could use the Mesquites as a net!

[BGR]

Im almost there, about 10 or 15 years to retirement. I will sell my over priced abode and snag me a few acres of land and a nice hut.

I can already see the concrete mixer trucks lined up as my new Runway/Driveway goes in.

[PlasticHead]

Originally posted by BGR
Im almost there, about 10 or 15 years to retirement. I will sell my over priced abode and snag me a few acres of land and a nice hut.

I can already see the concrete mixer trucks lined up as my new Runway/Driveway goes in.

Now that sounds awesome!! Let me know when, I'll bring the windsock :D .

Bill

[Jim Branaum]

About 13 years ago I built out in the boonies so I could do lots of things. One of them was flying off the street in front of the house. Wouldn't you know it, MANY others moved out here and now I have neighbors and traffic. Hard to do a touch and go against oncoming traffic!

[PlasticHead]

My Mother has 21 acres in Santa Paula, CA the problem is it is covered with citrus and avocado trees :eek: I've tried to convince her that a couple of acres cleared for a nice runway and stuff would be a good thing but so far no such luck ;). Santa Paula airport is a few miles away and is a hotbed for full size experimental aircraft so there is always something cool flying around.

Bill

[Bud Morrison]

Topic is drifting a lil far here fellows :)
Lets try to stay on the "Is electrics hurting the AMA? topic."

Thanks

[cloud9]

Switched to electric.....

hassle,hassle,hassle, Need $$$$ for gas and maintenance. Electrics can plug into the wall socket for a couple cents, fly all day, fly in your own backyard!!!, little engine troubles.
Still, remember AMA still has model rocketry, so if the GLOW goes away, there's still some things to help the AMA.

[BGR]

Originally posted by Jim Branaum
About 13 years ago I built out in the boonies so I could do lots of things. One of them was flying off the street in front of the house. Wouldn't you know it, MANY others moved out here and now I have neighbors and traffic. Hard to do a touch and go against oncoming traffic!

Well you have to buy a large enough spread so that won't matter. A ranch or farm will do the trick.

Oh yea its off topic so I will add that if you have such a spread you most likely will want the AMA insurance and lots of electrics. You wouldnt want to lose your spread in a big ole court battle cause you gave someone a nasty hair cut. I would not want to cause the AMA to become a thing of the past just cause my plane has wires instead of fuel lines.

[jmf2001]

Guys what's the difference what powers our planes or what they are made of. We love the hobby and that's why we are part of it. I have been flying since I was 7 years old I remember when a kit cost ten cents and when the glue to make the model came with the kit. You had to mix it with water. In school we built our models from plans we designed. Im going back to the 30s. I have been with this hobby so long and I have seen things that some of the new modelers never heard of. In the second world war I used to carve my own props out of trees we used to cut down . Over the years I have seen many changes. But it still is a hobby. I respect everyone who loves modeling and I have nothing aganist what you fly ff. cl, rc, glider, rockets or the new electrics. Love you all. But lets not knock the AMA. It has always been there for us and it will always be there. Just join then join a club. If there is none in your area get one going. But please don't fly alone. Being with a bunch of guys is part of the hobby.

[Lightnin]

Well said!

[BGR]

Originally posted by jmf2001
In the second world war I used to carve my own props out of trees we used to cut down.

I bet you walked 10 miles to school in 3 foot of snow, uphill both ways!

Just kidding, I agree with you completly.:D

[Mike Wizynajtys]

I have the best of both worlds in terms of backyard flying and club flying. What I mean is I have a 10 acre parcel of land from which I fly my small electrics at home and I belong to a very friendly AMA RC club that's about a 20 minute drive from home.

What I've found is that flying by myself at home is OK for times when I can't get out to the club and I need a quick fix, but I have a much better time flying my larger planes at the club field and BSing with my friends.

So, are electrics hurting the AMA? Gee, in my opinion no. They are probably helping by getting more people involved in the hobby. Once hooked, I believe most people would seek out a club in order to have sommeone to fly with.

Wiz

[jmf2001]

In the long run I agree that the electrics will develope into larger models both of electric or liquid fuel. Anything that flies cannot hurt our hobby if we all take a realastic look at the format. It is a model and they will either give it up or get deeper involved. Either build or join a club. Lets be kind to everyone who flies model airplanes. When I was a kid we started with free flight stick tissue and balsa, then came control line, then we got into r/c. All kinds of models being flown Jets Choppers. Im sure that pretty soon some one will come out with some kind of long lasting rocket power.
Were all in this together. Lets teach the new commers some of the things we have learned. It was hard for some of us. Lets help all modelers, and perhaps someday we can all fly together.:)

[goldguy]

My concern regarding "Park Flyers" is in the way in which it is being promoted by some model magazines, such as Backyard Flyers's moto on the cover which says "radio control flying......anywhere, anytime". This leads to un-informed newbe to believe that in fact he/she can fly an electric powered model airplane..... "anywhere at anytime"..........and they do!!!!!

So, now we have un-experienced pilots flying in parks, school yards, sports fields, etc., many without premission from the property owners, no safety rules being enforced, no fields layout to control the spectators that model airplanes attract that are not aware of the dangers. After all, a slow flying electric can poke an eye out, among other injuries.

With the increased activity of "park flyers" locally, we have lost flying privilidges at two sites, where we had premission, because we were a proper club with insurance, that covered the property owner as well as the pilots using the facilities. We still have our club flying site, so it's not a problem for us. But now they have no were to go and loose interest, a lost customers to the hobby manufactures and magazine publishers.

I know many who have made an attempt of get involved in the hobby, spent hundreds of dollars on equiptment, but when it came to spend a few bucks to join a club, they hung their models in their garage to gather duct. But, they make damn sure if they ding someone with a golf ball, their insured.

If they are relying on a household policy for coverage against a law suit in the event of an incident, they had better have something in writing from their insurance carrier that says they have coverage for flying model airplanes. Without it, the financial burden will impact their future for a very long time.

The insurance industry has become very selective, as both the AMA and MAAC in this country have found out since 9/11. Here in Canada our memberships insurance policy has increased from $34K in 02 to over $96K in 03. For 04 we went shopping, even Lloyds of London. With four recent death related to the hobby, we were not supprised at the quotes that were recieved, one at $350,000, one at $500,000 (with very high deductables) and a "you have to be kidding" from Lloyds. Forunately, our previous carries held their last years quote. Modeling organizations around the world are experiencing the same insurance problems. Household policies......a big ???????

So, what has happened is, you can't mention 1:1 scale airplanes, model airplanes, terrorism or the insurance in the same breath.

The hobby industry, encluding the model publications should be promoting the idea of investigating insurance coverage, seeking out a local club and enjoying the hobby in a safe enviroment. The cost of join a club and getting the proper insurance far out-weighs the cost of a long and costly court case.

[J_R]

I am not real familiar with the MAAC, but I am with the AMA. All it takes to form a club, and get the included insurance for the club and the landowner is 5 members. It would seem logical that a group of park flyers could start a club and go to the powers that be and get flying rights are a park or field. Since the cost of the AMA charter and insurance for the club AND for the landlord is about $100, club dues would be next to nothing for a larger group.

In many areas, ordinances are being passed prohibiting rc devices in parks and schools. The strength of numbers would seem to dictate that park flyer clubs should be able to get waivers to those ordinances.

[jmf2001]

What you say is true. I can't understand how modelers find money to buy what ever suits them but when it comes to joining a club or the AMA they find that they can't afford the money. I have the same problem here in Puerto Rico. I tell them pay to join a club. join the AMA or fly some were else. If you belong to a club you must protect your club and the dues paying members. Flying is supossed to be fun. Even when we cannot fly because of wind or rain there is always something going on. We must protect our hobby, our friends and serious modelers. If guys want to fly their electric, park fliers or what ever alone they may say that they are having a good time but don't belive it. Part of this hobby is the guys we fly with. And I am not about to let anyone take that away from me. Either shape up or ship out.

[goldguy]

I didn't want to sound negative in my comments about "Park Flyers", after all, I do consider my self one as well.

The boom in electric flight has in fact been a very positive thing for the hobby and governing bodies such as the AMA and MAAC ( Model Aeronautics Association of Canada) with many new members joining in on the fun. The hobby is now consumer driven and look where that has taken electrics in the last few years, rivaling glow in performance. Many new members interest started with "E" power and have gone on to joining the local club and getting involved in other forms of power.

Thing is, those that choose to stay "rogue flyers" should be aware of their choices, which encludes proper insurance. Igorance is not a defence in a court of law. Deaths in the hobby certainly have had an impact on the hobby around the world.

Just imagine the fall-out if a local news paper gets hold a story about a park flyer poking some kid eye out, everyone in that community will view us all in the same light and have second thoughts about granting premission to fly in certain areas, or not at all.

The hobby shops, model magazines and manufacturers should make everyone interested in getting into this hobby, that there are responsibilities associated with flying models. Having a slogan on the cover of an international magazine that promotes "flying anywhere, anytime" I feel is irresponsible and could come back to envolve them if a legal action.

fly SMALL, have a BALL

Frank Weaver

Pacific Zone Director, MAAC

[PlasticHead]

Originally posted by jmf2001
What you say is true. I can't understand how modelers find money to buy what ever suits them but when it comes to joining a club or the AMA they find that they can't afford the money. I have the same problem here in Puerto Rico. I tell them pay to join a club. join the AMA or fly some were else. If you belong to a club you must protect your club and the dues paying members. Flying is supossed to be fun. Even when we cannot fly because of wind or rain there is always something going on. We must protect our hobby, our friends and serious modelers. If guys want to fly their electric, park fliers or what ever alone they may say that they are having a good time but don't belive it. Part of this hobby is the guys we fly with. And I am not about to let anyone take that away from me. Either shape up or ship out.

Complete nonsense.... I don't need your club or any other club to enjoy RC Flying. When I join the AMA it won't because of some a** telling me to shape up or ship out. People get this idea that in order to enjoy flying RC or to do "it" correctly you need the AMA, thats nonsense. I will join the AMA for the services they provide to me. I have about 12 people I fly with at different times a few belong to the AMA, most don't, I also very much enjoy flying on my own when I get the chance, sometimes I just don't want anyone around when I fly.

Bill

[Don Sims]

Please follow site posting guidelines. Treat each other with respect, watch the swearing, and keep the discussion civil.
Thanks!!
Don

[J_R]

Hi Bill

I understand where you are coming from. Although I am an AMA supporter, I think that the AMA is mis-understood by many. The AMA charters clubs. The clubs are run as they see fit, as long as they stay within the Safety Code and some simple things like not allowing discrimination based on race, creed, color, sex, etc, etc.

I absolutely refused to join one club because of the way it was run. I chose the primary club I belong to because the guys are very laid back. Many times, no flying is going on because of the discussions about models that are taking place in the pits. You ask a question and you get 5 opinions. I view that as fun. Not all will, of course. We also greet parkflyers with open arms. Not all clubs feel that way either.

I guess what I am trying to say is that all AMA clubs are not alike.

[BGR]

The shape up or ship out seems to be a little harsh, what I think he means is that to belong to an AMA sponsored club you need to me a member or you cannot belong to the club.

In an uncontrolled environment such as a park you are busy flying the airplane and really cannot do much in the way of policing for safety should you have spectators. In a club environment with a designated field there are built in safeguards and rules that help prevent injury.

Furthermore in an uncontrolled environment you cannot prevent a person from walking or doing as he or she wishes.
The possibility that a spectator is unaware of the danger that an RC aircraft might pose can as a result put him or her into a position where injury is more likely.

In any case you as the pilot carry the sole responsibility for the safety of others in an uncontrolled environment. If you are an adult then you will be held legally and finacially liable if someone is injured or killed by your aircraft. If you are under age your parents will share this responsibility with you even if they have no knowledge of it.

[J_R]

Although the AMA insurance is in excess of other insurance (secondary), it does cover an AMA member anywhere they may legally fly... as long as the Safety Code is adhered to. Depending on whose figures you use, as many as 50% of AMA members are not members of clubs. Dave Brown, AMA President, used that number in one of his columns a year or so ago. To be honest, the AMA does not know how many of it's members belong to clubs.

The use of a spotter and some good sense should allow most anyone to fly within the Safety Code. Of course, there are other reasons to belong as well, but, having $2.5 million in liability insurance sure is a good one.

[Fleg]

I read that thread, read it twice actually to make sure I didn't miss anything. Then I read it again as I was replying to this message!!! Guess how many of those "benifits" would really benifit me?

Programs = 0
Service = 1 (if it's true and I strongly doubt it), Safeguarding radio frequencies through liaison with Federal Communications Commission
Events = 0
Products = maybe 1. The Magazine sounds interesting but I've been told it mostly covers things I'm not interested in and more preaching. Don't know for myself and that's why I put maybe 1.

Is it worth $58 and to have some organization that doesn't even care who I am telling me what to do?? Not to me. Someone telling me that I have to join the AMA to fly safely can preach to someone else for all I care.

Disclaimer;
This reply isn't up for a dissagrement and is not ment to start an argument. Not one single person here can tell me what is right for me or fun for me except me. Of course my opinion could change tomorrow or never change but that's how it is now.



Originally posted by Jim Branaum
Nose_first,
Please take a look here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156063


I think that addresses your issue about "why join the AMA" without going too much into the insurance issue.

[J_R]

Fleg

Not everyone needs to belong to the AMA. Although the AMA does things for every modeler in the country, being a member is not required to reap some of those benefits.

Right now, the issue of Broadband over Power Lines (BPL) is before the FCC. This would allow high-speed internet access to many parts of the country where it is not currently available. The AMA is taking an active role in monitoring the situation. BPL has the potential to cause interference that would make our frequencies useless. The AMA has been asked for, and has supplied input to the TSA relative to transporting models on aircraft. The AMA has actually sent people to train some TSA people so that models are not viewed as a threat. The AMA is currently struggling with a definition of a model airplane at the behest of the FAA. As you may recall, all flying was shut down during the Utah Winter Olympics, including models. If terrorism threat levels increase, it is possible the FAA might shut down RC again during such a threat. The AMA is trying to come up with an effective way to notify modelers if such a restriction takes place.

None of these efforts require AMA membership. The truth is that while some modelers do not need the AMA, the AMA needs every modeler it can get.

What many do not seem to realize is that the AMA is modelers. The leaders are non-paid elected members. Modelers who are in a position to give something back to the hobby, without getting reimbursed for their efforts. They are not some nameless, faceless people that are doing this for profit. The AMA, itself, is a non-profit educational corporation. This is our (those of us that are members) organization. When it comes to dealing with government, whether over FCC issues, or obtaining flying sites, there is strength in numbers.

While you may not need us, we need you.

JR

PS I am no one special, just another AMA member.