Spoilerons...

[Roger]

This message from "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com> brought to you by EFLIGHT!

As I've never set up spoilerons before, I could use a little help...

The model is my first (and maybe my last!) ARTF, a *Filip Millennium*
It's a 2 metre (79 inch) V-tailed electric glider (soarer) with ailerons,
which I also want to be able to use as spoilerons.

Tx is a JR X-388S, and the Rx I was hoping to use is a Multiplex Pico 4/5
channel (part no. 55950)
An alternative is my an old Futaba 8 channel Rx, but that is quite old and
is currently in my trusty old Challenger
I'd rather use the Pico if I can, but I could swap them over if I need to.
(I don't *really* want to buy another Rx, as I already have 8, the rest
having only 4 channels.)

I want to have ailerons and elevator on the right stick, and throttle and
rudder on the left.
I wouldn't be _too_ bothered if didn't have the rudder BTW, as I'm well used
to flying with just ailerons and elevator,
(with the ailerons using a *Y* lead plugged into channel 2).
I *could* easily mechanically couple the two elevator halves and drive them
(as elevator only) with a single servo.
A good or bad idea?

Anyway, as I understand it so far I need to use:

Ch 1 for the Motor
Ch 2 for the RIGHT aileron,
Ch 3 for the Elevator,
Ch 4 for the Rudder

The (hard to understand, difficult to read and falling more apart by the
day) manual seems to be of no help in telling me where to plug the LEFT
aileron!
The nearest I can find is channel 6 but this is for _flapperons_ (unless I
can reverse direction here?)

Also, do I need to mix in some *up elevator* with the spoilerons, and if so
how?

All input will be appreciated!

TIA


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[Ed]

This message from "Ed" <kg4w@comcast.net> brought to you by EFLIGHT!

Hi Roger, I did a search on your JR X-388s transmitter & found a site that
I think has info to help you. I just set up my tx for spoilerons, but my tx
is diff from yours. I wound up with spoilerons on a toggle switch. Once you
get yours working, don't raise the spoilerons so high that you don't have
aileron control along with the spoilerons.
You will want to mix in down elevator with the spoilerons.
I think you will have to have a 7 channel rx also. There is a couple
different schools of thought as to how to set up the Tx for a sailplane ie -
some prefer the throttle on a toggle sw or slider & the spoilers on the
throttle stick, others have the throttle on the conventional stick & the
spoilerons on a toggle or slider

Roger take a look at the following site & once there, click on "soaring
tips"

www.orlandobuzzards.org

I think that site info will get you going.

Hope this helps
Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com>
To: <eflight@ezonemag.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 6:00 PM
Subject: [EFLT] Spoilerons...


> This message from "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com> brought to you by
EFLIGHT!
>
> As I've never set up spoilerons before, I could use a little help...
>
> The model is my first (and maybe my last!) ARTF, a *Filip Millennium*
> It's a 2 metre (79 inch) V-tailed electric glider (soarer) with ailerons,
> which I also want to be able to use as spoilerons.
>
> Tx is a JR X-388S, and the Rx I was hoping to use is a Multiplex Pico 4/5
> channel (part no. 55950)
> An alternative is my an old Futaba 8 channel Rx, but that is quite old and
> is currently in my trusty old Challenger
> I'd rather use the Pico if I can, but I could swap them over if I need to.
> (I don't *really* want to buy another Rx, as I already have 8, the rest
> having only 4 channels.)
>
> I want to have ailerons and elevator on the right stick, and throttle and
> rudder on the left.
> I wouldn't be _too_ bothered if didn't have the rudder BTW, as I'm well
used
> to flying with just ailerons and elevator,
> (with the ailerons using a *Y* lead plugged into channel 2).
> I *could* easily mechanically couple the two elevator halves and drive
them
> (as elevator only) with a single servo.
> A good or bad idea?
>
> Anyway, as I understand it so far I need to use:
>
> Ch 1 for the Motor
> Ch 2 for the RIGHT aileron,
> Ch 3 for the Elevator,
> Ch 4 for the Rudder
>
> The (hard to understand, difficult to read and falling more apart by the
> day) manual seems to be of no help in telling me where to plug the LEFT
> aileron!
> The nearest I can find is channel 6 but this is for _flapperons_ (unless I
> can reverse direction here?)
>
> Also, do I need to mix in some *up elevator* with the spoilerons, and if
so
> how?
>
> All input will be appreciated!
>
> TIA
>
>
> *** Any complaints or problems? Send an email to monitor@ezonemag.com
> *** For help with list commands go to
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> *** For the list rules go to http://www.ezonemag.com/pages/mailrule.htm
>



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[Roger]

This message from "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com> brought to you by EFLIGHT!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed" <kg4w@comcast.net>
To: <eflight@ezonemag.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EFLT] Spoilerons...


> This message from "Ed" <kg4w@comcast.net> brought to you by EFLIGHT!
>
> Hi Roger, I did a search on your JR X-388s transmitter & found a site
that
> I think has info to help you. I just set up my tx for spoilerons, but my
tx
> is diff from yours. I wound up with spoilerons on a toggle switch.
> Once you
> get yours working, don't raise the spoilerons so high that you don't have
> aileron control along with the spoilerons.

A good point!
I never thought of that, and would have found out the hard way!

> You will want to mix in down elevator with the spoilerons.

Oh! ...and I would have guessed *up* <gulp>!

> I think you will have to have a 7 channel rx also.

I have come to that conclusion now.
Perhaps I *will* have to treat myself <g>
<hint to wife : It's my birthday soon....>

> There is a couple
> different schools of thought as to how to set up the Tx for a sailplane
ie -
> some prefer the throttle on a toggle sw or slider & the spoilers on the
> throttle stick, others have the throttle on the conventional stick & the
> spoilerons on a toggle or slider.

The latter is the way *I* would like to do it too.

> Roger, take a look at the following site & once there, click on "soaring
> tips"
>
> www.orlandobuzzards.org
>
That looks brilliant, I'll go and have a good read!

Hmmmm. Theree's also a useful article on replacing the Tx's battery!
I've printed that out and stuck it in with the manual.

Thanks Ed :-)

--
¤ Roger (Cambridge UK) ¤
....advice is free, you don't *have* to take it!
Archive: http://muffin.indexdata.dk/elist/


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[Valland Anders]

This message from Valland Anders <Anders.Valland@marintek.sintef.no> brought to you by EFLIGHT!

I just saw this thread, and I have to give my 2 cents as well. I fly a small
model, 80 cm ws at 450 grams, 8 HECELLs on a Hacker B20. Much fun. :-)

Point is, to slow it down for landing on small fields I use spoilerons. My
spoilerons lift pretty high, but aileron control is always positive. The
point of spoilerons is to spoil the airfoil, then when you give aileron one
of them goes down to un-spoil the airfoil on that side. This is a positive
control strategy. (whew, that sounds nice :-)

I also need to compensate with up-elevator to keep the nose high. Initially
the spoilerons give a up-moment on the model, but as speed is reduced
(quickly) I need to compensate with up-elevator. I do not program this
compensation as it is different from time to time and depending on wind.

I would recommend that you set up for spoilerons with throws according to
the TLAR-rule, then take her up the normal 3 mistakes and try them. See how
she responds and get to know your control authority, then adjust
accordingly.

BTW, I have a JR XP642 with the spoilerons on the flap-switch. It is a
2-position switch.

Good luck!

Anders Valland
Trondheim, Norway
>

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[Valland Anders]

This message from Valland Anders <Anders.Valland@marintek.sintef.no> brought to you by EFLIGHT!

Oh, btw......my XP642 has a 6-channel receiver, and the manual only
describes flaperons. Since the gurus on this list only recommend spoilerons,
I just used th flap-switch and made sure the "flaps" are flush with the wing
when the switch is "deployed", then they are spoilerons when the switch is
"retracted".

I don't know the 4/5 channel Pico, but my guess is the 5th channel is the
slave? Have you tried it?

brgds,

Anders Valland
Trondheim, Norway
>

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[Roger]

This message from "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com> brought to you by EFLIGHT!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Valland Anders" <Anders.Valland@marintek.sintef.no>
To: <eflight@ezonemag.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: [EFLT] Spoilerons...


> This message from Valland Anders <Anders.Valland@marintek.sintef.no>
brought to you by EFLIGHT!
>
> Oh, btw......my XP642 has a 6-channel receiver, and the manual only
> describes flaperons. Since the gurus on this list only recommend
spoilerons,
> I just used the flap-switch and made sure the "flaps" are flush with the
wing
> when the switch is "deployed", then they are spoilerons when the switch is
> "retracted".

What a good idea!!!!

>
> I don't know the 4/5 channel Pico, but my guess is the 5th channel is the
> slave? Have you tried it?

Not yet, but I will, as I'd rather use the Pico if I can.
Thanks :-)

--
¤ Roger (Cambridge UK) ¤
....advice is free, you don't *have* to take it!
Archive: http://muffin.indexdata.dk/elist/


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[Roger]

This message from "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com> brought to you by EFLIGHT!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com>
To: <eflight@ezonemag.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EFLT] Spoilerons...

Two (posssibly silly) questions, but nevertheless, if I don't ask...

1) Should I set the X-388S Tx to *Glider* or *Aeroplane/Airplane* for an
electric powered glider?

2) Are spoilerons just for slowing the landing speed, or can they be used as
a means of dumping lift to get out of a thermal?

(The latter is what I really want them for, I have no worries about the
landing speed, as the glider is lightly loaded.)

--
¤ Roger (Cambridge UK) ¤
Archive: http://muffin.indexdata.dk/elist/


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[Wim Hanssens]

This message from "Wim Hanssens" <Wim.Hanssens@village.uunet.be> brought to you by EFLIGHT!




>Two (posssibly silly) questions, but nevertheless, if I don't ask...

>1) Should I set the X-388S Tx to *Glider* or *Aeroplane/Airplane* for an
>electric powered glider?

Glider.

>2) Are spoilerons just for slowing the landing speed, or can they be used
as
>a means of dumping lift to get out of a thermal?

No and yes. Spoilerons ( as in "ailerons up) add drag and make your wing
area a bit smaller. This means that if you push your toy down a little the
top speed won't get as high as it would be without the spoilerons
deployed(drag), but it will fly a little faster (wing area reduced). So you
can indeed use it to get out of a thermal, and for "shortening" or
"steepening" your landing approach. The landing speed only gets
significantly slower when you pull a lot of "up" just before touchdown.
Spoilerons help here too, because they change the wings characteristics, you
now have lots of washout, so your wing won't stall easily, even with a large
AOA.

Wim (Aalst,Belgium)



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[Roger]

This message from "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com> brought to you by EFLIGHT!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wim Hanssens" <Wim.Hanssens@village.uunet.be>
To: <eflight@ezonemag.com>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EFLT] Spoilerons...


> This message from "Wim Hanssens" <Wim.Hanssens@village.uunet.be> brought
to you by EFLIGHT!
>
>
>
>
> >Two (posssibly silly) questions, but nevertheless, if I don't ask...
>
> >1) Should I set the X-388S Tx to *Glider* or *Aeroplane/Airplane* for an
> >electric powered glider?
>
> Glider.
>
> >2) Are spoilerons just for slowing the landing speed, or can they be used
> as
> >a means of dumping lift to get out of a thermal?
>
> No and yes. Spoilerons ( as in "ailerons up) add drag and make your wing
> area a bit smaller. This means that if you push your toy down a little the
> top speed won't get as high as it would be without the spoilerons
> deployed(drag), but it will fly a little faster (wing area reduced). So
you
> can indeed use it to get out of a thermal, and for "shortening" or
> "steepening" your landing approach. The landing speed only gets
> significantly slower when you pull a lot of "up" just before touchdown.
> Spoilerons help here too, because they change the wings characteristics,
you
> now have lots of washout, so your wing won't stall easily, even with a
large
> AOA.
>
Ok, it sounds as if I'm really going to have to try this!
All I have to do now is get my head round actually programming the X-388S!
The last time I fiddled with the darn thing, I finished up spending hours
putting two other models back to how they used to be!
Computers (as in *desktop* rather than *Tx's*) are a doddle by comparison!

BTW, the model is the V-tail version of the Filip600, seen top left here:

http://www.puffinmodels.com/rcmpelikan.html

If anyone is putting together or flying one of these, comment away, please!

Many thanks to you, Don, Ted and the others who have replied to this thread,
it's got very interesting.

--
¤ Roger (Cambridge UK) ¤
....advice is free, you don't *have* to take it!
Archive: http://muffin.indexdata.dk/elist/




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[Richard Border]

This message from "Richard Border" <soarrich@netlabs.net> brought to you by EFLIGHT!

> 2) Are spoilerons just for slowing the landing speed, or can they be used
as
> a means of dumping lift to get out of a thermal?

Roger

I have a ASK-21 4.2m, a Weston 2m, and a Flipit 400 with spoilerons, so
these are what I'm basing my statement on.

Yes, spoilerons will dump lift. On all three of my planes when I raise the
spoilerons the nose pitches up slightly and the plane SLOWS down. This is
the reverse of spoilers which usually cause pitch down and speed the plane
up. What is happening IMHO is that the spoilerons are acting a little like
elverons on a flying wing, the wing is ""seeing up elevator". If you mix in
some down elevator with your radio you in effect now have a plane with LOTS
of washout in the wing, this is higher drag than a plane without washout.

Yes, you can land slower with spoilerons than without. With the spoilerons
up, and pulling up on the elevator you can bring the center of the wing up
to Max CL, which is a very draggy condition but lots of lift, while at the
same time the tips are almost installable. Without spoilerons you would
never pull the nose of a sailplane ~20-25* without getting tip stall, it
takes some getting used to, but it really works. My Fipit 400 isn't as good
at this trick because it has flaperons, not descreet ailerons, so your
dumping lift over the entire wing then trying to get the lift back by
increasing the AOA, draggy but not super high lift.

Rich Border


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[Mike Murphy]

This message from "Mike Murphy" <evmurph@zetnet.co.uk> brought to you by EFLIGHT!

On 17 Oct 2003 at 9:09, Roger wrote:
> Ok, it sounds as if I'm really going to have to try this!
> All I have to do now is get my head round actually programming the X-388S!
> The last time I fiddled with the darn thing, I finished up spending hours
> putting two other models back to how they used to be!


Hi Roger,
to avoid that particular problem, copy the existing model setup to a
new memory location and then experiment away there knowing that your
original settings are safe.
Regards
- Mike


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[Roger]

This message from "Roger" <e-flier@ntlworld.com> brought to you by EFLIGHT!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murphy" <evmurph@zetnet.co.uk>
To: <eflight@ezonemag.com>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [EFLT] Spoilerons...


> This message from "Mike Murphy" <evmurph@zetnet.co.uk> brought to you by
EFLIGHT!
>
> On 17 Oct 2003 at 9:09, Roger wrote:
> > Ok, it sounds as if I'm really going to have to try this!
> > All I have to do now is get my head round actually programming the
X-388S!
> > The last time I fiddled with the darn thing, I finished up spending
hours
> > putting two other models back to how they used to be!
>
>
> Hi Roger,
> to avoid that particular problem, copy the existing model setup to a
> new memory location and then experiment away there knowing that your
> original settings are safe.
> Regards
> - Mike

If only I were that confident!
It's a very good idea, but as it happens I had all 8 in use anyway,
unfortunately!


--
¤ Roger (Cambridge UK) ¤
....advice is free, you don't *have* to take it!
Archive: http://muffin.indexdata.dk/elist/


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