District 8 politics.....

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by Don Sims
I agree IC, they are missing an opportunity to reach a growing segment of the hobby.
Don

Last year, when I ran for EVP, the forums were NOT hospitable to the idea of posting AMA politics on their sites.

Thankfully things have changed. Here is a bit of my life for your consideration.

Objective: Overall promotion of all model aviation sport and/or hobby to be considered by all peoples as definitely a worthwhile activity well worth National Recognition and assistance. To encourage more AMA members to become more involved in their AMA.

Management: USAF and UAL Officers and Aircrew 1955 -- 1996. Successful Hobby Business 1970 – 1976
Several small private corporations during years 1970 --1985

Financial: Personal Investments without any financial loss. Also see Legal.

Legal: Personal business affairs through personal legal research with very minor legal assistance. Very familiar with the various legal ramifications of Land Management, acquisition, and diversified-use interests. Currently the beneficiary of properties existing under Trust names.(Some of this accomplished through personal research when professionals did not believe it could be done.)

Technical / Engineering: Life-Time (41 years) involved in Applied Aeronautical Engineering sciences.
Technical and Engineering applications very diversified through Administrative, Training, Problem Solving, and Field Applications of Electrical, Hydraulic, Pneumatic, Fueling Systems, and the systems and technologies associated with weapon systems delivery including nuclear and thermo-nuclear units.

Volunteer Experience: Served as President and other positions of several model airplane clubs to include the Skylarks RC Club, then located near Mundelein, IL and the Texas based Jetero RC Club, Inc.
Served as Secretary to Association of Greater Chicago Radio Control Clubs in mid 1970s.
Served as AMA District VI RC Contest Coordinator in 1976 – 1978.
Served as AMA Vice President, District VI, 1979 – 1981.
Served at 1972 and '73 NATS.
Active Contest Director and Leader Member since 1963,

Employment: Teens: Lumber–Jack, Construction, Pipeline projects in Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, New Jersey, and British Columbia.
United States Air Force, June, 1955 through February, 1968. United Air lines, March, 1968 through February, 1996.
Periods of Iowa Air National Guard, Fighter – Interceptors, and the USAF Reserve Military Airlift, Pittsburgh PA. 1969 through 1978
Several other lesser part-time applications during the periods above through private corporations, such as the Aero Sports, Inc. Hobby Shop in Mt. Prospect, IL.

Model Aviation: Life-Time of model aviation from early years until current time.
Control-Line and Free-Flight including competition through 1973. Radio Control since 1971. AMA Officer 1976 – 1981, First AMA Officer to be re-elected via write-in vote of the constituency.

Financed and initiated a large RC Flying Facility.
Once belonged to seven SIGs, however now only the IMAA, plus the Flying Aces scale rubber power organization. Still active in Scale, Sport, Fun – Flys, and War-Bird Racing.
Still active in promotion as the Jetero RC, Inc. Newsletter Editor.

My long service in highly technical fields plus the nearly overall spectrum of model aviation and my previous experience with the AMA Executive Council more than prepares me for the position of Vice President on AMA's Executive Council.

Why does Horrace Cain want to be the AMA Vice President for District VIII?

Simply because I, as a Native Texan, now live my retired life in Texas and Texas is a portion of AMA District VIII.
Now why do I want to be an AMA Vice President? Because I have seen AMA drift away from a promoter of the Hobby / Recreation / Sport of the world of model aviation into what I see as almost nothing more than an Insurance Business. I believe it is far past the time to redirect that course back to the promotion of model aviation.
Flying Sites are the number one priority in today's world. Those living in vast urban areas know this better than anyone.
Model Aviation needs the full acceptance of its vast areas of educational, recreational, social, technological, and a host of other fantastic benefits that can supply motivation for people of all ages to learn and improve their lifestyles. AMA needs to exert much more effort in gaining that recognition through all media and governmental agencies. Only then when model aviation is recognized as the great sport/activity that it is will we be able to have true power when negotiating for facilities.

Flying Sites, Flying Sites, Flying Sites!

Model Aviation led me into a life that has been nearly Heaven-on-Earth. I ask you to vote for a person that is not afraid to speak his mind, cannot be easily intimidated, yet will consider all inputs to derive a course of action. I promise you that I can change my mind when confronted with proper unemotional factual evidence. However, I will not compromise my principles of honesty and integrity.

Another thing that I will do, is to inform you what I am doing, how I am thinking and what AMA is thinking. Some will tell you that I don't work well with the EC. I do not work for the EC; I work for YOU. You will know what I am doing and your inputs will always be welcome. In addition, I will be working to lessen the continuous growth of AMA rules, especially those that hamper Club and facility operations.

Your 2004 AMA Renewal will start arriving sometime in October. There will be a small ballot
attached. Remove that ballot, vote for Horrace Cain, and drop it into the mail. The ballot will be addressed to an auditing firm. D0 NOT send the ballot to AMA. DO NOT wait until you pay your dues.

Horrace Cain for AMA District VIII Vice President, MORE Flying Sites, LESS rules

[easytiger]

Originally posted by Don Sims
I agree IC, they are missing an opportunity to reach a growing segment of the hobby.
Don

I dunno. I think you are really missing all the "backstory elements", as they say in Hollywood...all the stuff that came before. I have been following this for years.
It seems pretty obvious that the internet is just not a viable forum for debating the AMA. The same participants just keep turning it into a circus. An INCREDIBLE amount of misinformation has been published about the AMA over the years on the net, and long ago, the wiser heads at AMA realized it's a loaded deck and just not a productive way to spend time. The democratic process of AMA still works, and things are very much open for debate, but experience has proven that the online forums are just not the place.
The online forums give a VERY different view on what the general constituency is thinking than reality. Go look at old posts around the time of the last couple of elections. You will see something VERY revealing...if you beleived the internet, many people were very upset, and Frank Tiano was going to be the next AMA President. When the polls came in, people had voted overwhelmingly AGAINST him. In other words, when it comes to AMA topics online, don't beleive what you read. It's really just a few loud people raking all the muck, the real story, down at the flying field, is totally different.

[easytiger]

Since you want to use this as a campaign platform...
what rules do you want to get rid of, Horrace? Specifically?
What , very specifically, do you plan to do to get more flying sites?

[J_R]

Originally posted by Don Sims
I agree IC, they are missing an opportunity to reach a growing segment of the hobby.
Don

Don

I did not get mad and I did not go away. I still watch this forum. Your (RCGroups) desire to keep it civil prompted me to edit my posts. I see nothing wrong with what you would like this forum to be.

At the same time, I would suggest to you that the best course might be to NOT allow political information here at all. RCGroups has a forum for rec.models.rc.air. Let those that wish to discuss the politics of the AMA go there. Start fresh and wipe out all of the political posts in this forum.

Barring that, there are a tremendous number of people that have become quite offended by the actions of the D8 VP and the prior D6 VP in the nominating process. It is unrealistic to expect those actions to be ignored. The inclusion of those actions will immediately create a contentious state within this forum, as was shown in the prior posts.

To allow only self-serving statements by the candidates does a dis-service to the AMA and it's membership.

Simply, you can not have a non-contentious political forum. It is an oxymoron

I see no reason that this forum can not be successful discussing AMA issues, such as insurance and flying field retention. There are plenty of topics that are much less contensious than politics.

I am not a candidate and do not want any political office within the AMA at any level. My interest is having the facts disclosed and that the truth should prevail.

JR
AMA 732
CD/LM

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by easytiger
Since you want to use this as a campaign platform...
what rules do you want to get rid of, Horrace? Specifically?
What , very specifically, do you plan to do to get more flying sites?

***Personal attack removed by moderator***

There are a lot of rules I wish to get rid of, especially in the bloated Safety Code which is strangling RC Pylon and Combat to death. I can only try and solicit membership inputs.

"Very specifically"???? Well, the post states a lot, especially starting with public education and acceptance through national media exposure. Those battles will be fought as the war progresses.

I am not yet writing letters or making contacts. My plans will be revealed when it is time to start work. I have to be in the office to start work.
This field I secured on my own without any help from you or AMA.
If you search around, there are many pictures of it floating around. 3800 sq.ft shelter over concrete, indoor facilities, hot/cold water kitchen area, nice freq. control room, electrics all over shelter area, telephone, 100 x 600 contoured smooth grass runway on 30 acres with another 70 acres fly-over, not to mention high-way frontage and contracted maintenance.
Five protected flying stations.

Horrace D. Cain
************************
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein

[J_R]

***Previous post reference removed by moderator***

easytiger

Removing the personal attacks in the posts does nothing to set the record straight. The actions of the moderators are very much akin to a judge instructing a jury to ignore the comments they have heard.

I suggest that we leave this forum to Mr. Cain, or for the moderators to banish him from RCGroups. It would appear that he is either unable or unwilling to play by the intent of the rules, either here on RCGroups or in the AMA election process. I have about had my fill. How about you easytiger?

JR

[easytiger]

***Previous post reference removed by moderator***


"There are a lot of rules I wish to get rid of, especially in the bloated Safety Code which is strangling RC Pylon and Combat to death."

Specifically. What rules are "strangling RC Pylon and Combat to death"?
Which ones do you want to get rid of, and why?


" Well, the post states a lot, especially starting with public education and acceptance through national media exposure."


I don't see anything tangible in there are all, just the basic platitudes of a political campaign statement.
How are you going to improve on public education? Do you have any actual ideas on how to do that? Any plans?
How are you going to increase national media exposure? Do you have connections to any major news organizations? Do you have any materials that they might be interested in showing? Is there anything tangible to this promise?

"Those battles will be fought as the war progresses. "


I did not know there was a "war" going on. Who versus who?


***Previous post reference removed by moderator***

So, there is nothing really "explicit" in what you are promising? Is it just a basic "campaign promise" type of feelgood thing to say? I know you readily admit to using the loopholes in the nomination system to your advantage, is this promise of "more flying fields" of the same ilk? Just something you are saying to get elected?


"I am not yet writing letters or making contacts. "

Others are.

"My plans will be revealed when it is time to start work. "


That's a little frightening. Do you have a completely different plan for what you are going to do if you are elected? Different from what you are promising now? Or do you really have a plan?

"This field I secured on my own without any help from you or AMA."

As did thousands of others. That's how we got most of the flying fields we use right now. Sometimes it is done singlehandedly(I have done that, too) and sometimes it is a group effort. While I am glad you have your own flying field on your own property, I cannot see how that relates to your promise of more flying fields for all of us. Unless you plan to buy more fields around the country using your own money. Or do you plan to buy more fields around the country using OUR money? Tell us how you are going to get us more fields.

I'll pass on all the backbiting and all that stuff, since this is a politician running for an office, I would just like to hear some answers about some issues.

[easytiger]

Originally posted by J_R
easytiger

Removing the personal attacks in the posts does nothing to set the record straight. The actions of the moderators are very much akin to a judge instructing a jury to ignore the comments they have heard.

I suggest that we leave this forum to Mr. Cain, or for the moderators to banish him from RCGroups. It would appear that he is either unable or unwilling to play by the intent of the rules, either here on RCGroups or in the AMA election process. I have about had my fill. How about you easytiger?

JR

"To allow only self-serving statements by the candidates does a dis-service to the AMA and it's membership. "

Well...that's how it has played out so far, but I will have to give the moderators the benefit of the doubt, they don't know the cast of charachters yet, the forum is brand new. It HAS to be better than the forum on RCU, which is naturally biased(imho) by the owner getting his own political aspirations. Since Horrace Cain is here right now, and I am questioning very specific aspects of his campaign statement, without rancor, looking for actual answers, why not let it play out? If it plays out as everything gets deleted except the campaign statement, then I'm out of here. I hope they do NOT delete his attacks, I would rather his own words just stay.

[J_R]

Originally posted by easytiger
<SNIP> I hope they do NOT delete his attacks, I would rather his own words just stay.

I disagree. Either we are all held to the same standards or there should be no standards. I am willing to go either way.

I do agree that it does show his basic character, however, that is not what I have been led to believe the desires for this forum are. I guess we shall see, shortly, what this forum will become.

JR

[easytiger]

Well, sometimes moderation SEEMS unfair. Sometimes it IS, sometimes it's just a case of nobody has seen it yet, or that we missed the OTHER posts that got deleted, whatever. I don't expect perfection out of moderators.
While, so far, it DOES sort of seem biased here, this forum really has not been around long enough to say that for sure. So, benefit of the doubt, at least for me.
I don't mind being held to a HIGHER standard than Horrace. As a matter of fact, feel free to edit me and leave him. I beleive his true charachter shows through sooner or later, if he gets enough rope to hang himself.
BUT...
I am really, truly, sincerely interested in hearing his answers to the above questions. I get a feeling that he does not really have answers, and will just gloss it over, as many politicians do, but perhaps not?
If Horrace has some great ideas on how to get us new fields, or increase public exposure, or how to get rid of rules, I want to hear them. No matter WHAT the source. So, how about it, Horrace?

[rsallen13]

Originally posted by Hossfly
...I am not yet writing letters or making contacts. My plans will be revealed when it is time to start work...

Sounds vagely familar? Sure you are not from Distirct 5 and already in power?

Hi Hoss :D If one forum doesn't work move to another;)

Hello J_R and Easytiger! Glad to see others.

I hope that after this election that any and all AMA forums out in cyberspace can do a good job of informing not only the members but help to bring other in to this hobby and not turn people away.

This election has really gotten ugly. D-5 should be even more fun next year.

[Tres Wright]

==sometimes it's just a case of nobody has seen it yet==

Yes, that's the case here. We don't check in here very often. It is helpful when someone uses the "report this post to a moderator" feature to bring our attention to a problem ( as happened here).

==it DOES sort of seem biased here==

There's no bias, I don't know any of you people and am about as far from being interested in politics as a person can get. We moderate not based on who said what, but based on what an individual says and how it measures up to the R/C Groups forum policies:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50714

Especially this:

"2. We strive to be a place for courteous discussion. Users shall treat each other with respect at all times. There shall be no name-calling. Users shall not provoke one another. Please pause for a moment before sending your post and consider how you would view it if you were reading it as addressed towards you personally. "

Keep in mind it cuts both ways. If someone says something you don't like, the proper response isn't to call him names or provoke him in any way. Report the post to us and we will deal with it. It is our job to fix it, not yours.

I understand that political discussions don't get far without emotions kicking in, but we will moderate personal attacks out of all messages. They are not allowed on this forum or any of the others. The standard is the same everywhere.

Thank you! :)

[Don Sims]

Well said Tres, thank you.

Hossfly,
As an AMA member, I have to agree that when a candidate for office doesn't present his or her vision for the organization I personally get very concerned. Please explain your reasoning for not revealing your plans for the future of the AMA.

Like myself, there are many newer members (And potential members.) who want to see the organization grow in the future in a manner benifiting the membership.

J.R. and Easy Tiger,
Who cares what was said in other forums? This is an opportunity to all of you to wipe the slate clean and discuss your issues without personal attacks. Look at this thread and others that were closed through our eyes and the perspective of following the site rules, look at the posts that got edited and who made them.

On this site the mods are volunteers. Tres and I asked for this forum . In my case it was because of the flame wars I've read at other sites and I feel that folks need a chance to present thier views in a civil manner with out the flaming.
Don

[Hossfly]

>>>>>>>
Hossfly,
As an AMA member, I have to agree that when a candidate for office doesn't present his or her vision for the organization I personally get very concerned. Please explain your reasoning for not revealing your plans for the future of the AMA.
<<<<<<<<

Elementary my Dear Sims:

To reveal what one plans to do can give the opposition a fair lead on that opposition.

I worked with the late AMA President Earl Witt, about the best (IMO) president AMA ever had. Earl was full of good ideas and plans. With no computers back then, all communication to the membership was through the MA columns.
Earl and I each would get lambasted by the Ex. Director, John Worth, then a voting member of the EC, IN THE SAME ISSUE THAT WE PROPOSED SOMETHING. YET IT WAS 3 TO 4 MONTHS BEFORE WE COULD POST A REPLY. Totally ineffective, forgotten by the member if they even ever read it, and Earl and/or I was always the *Bad Guy.* Yet JW, a true control-freak, served his personal interests first over AMA.

Right here and on the other older forum, the average person usually has trouble with any post that makes more than one point. Perhaps that is why professional public-writing and speaking schools suggest not more than three points even when speaking/writing for more learned individuals. To present detailed plans would only confuse the average detractor even more than currently displayed. In addition, those capable of understanding those plans would either initiate those plans for their own gain or distort them for typical media effect on the lesser capable.

Earl Witt initiated a number of good things for AMA, like getting AMA out of DC's red-light district into their own home in Reston, yet a number of others received all the credit.
Right here there are those that deny my part in obtaining the current frequencies even though documented in official records and definitely claim to abhor my methods.

How could anyone expect me to present detailed future plans?

My plank of MORE FLYING SITES, resulting from NATIONAL RECOGNITION of the WORTH of MODEL AVIATION, and LESS ENCUMBERING RULES states what I will work for.

Bush ran for a TAX Cut, but not just where and how many $$.


Horrace D. Cain
************************
Don't argue with the road-signs. We all will get to the same end-of-the-road.
The trip is far shorter than one expects. HC.

[columbiarcdude]

Mr. Cain,
Since you are at a primarily electric powered RC web site/forum, when was the last time you built/flew an electric powered RC airplane?

Tom

[easytiger]

"How could anyone expect me to present detailed future plans?

My plank of MORE FLYING SITES, resulting from NATIONAL RECOGNITION of the WORTH of MODEL AVIATION, and LESS ENCUMBERING RULES states what I will work for."

So, there is nothing tangible there at all? You don't really have any ideas on how to accomplish this?

[easytiger]

Horrace, in 1980, when you were previously on the EC, representing District VI(an "OUTSIDER", as YOU would say), you found that four EC meetings a year was too much for you, and you proposed to limit it to two. It's right there in your own words in Model Aviation. Do you still feel like you were correct? Do you propose to limit the EC to two yearly meetings now?

[easytiger]

Originally posted by Don Sims
Well said Tres, thank you.

Hossfly,
As an AMA member, I have to agree that when a candidate for office doesn't present his or her vision for the organization I personally get very concerned. Please explain your reasoning for not revealing your plans for the future of the AMA.

Like myself, there are many newer members (And potential members.) who want to see the organization grow in the future in a manner benifiting the membership.

J.R. and Easy Tiger,
Who cares what was said in other forums? This is an opportunity to all of you to wipe the slate clean and discuss your issues without personal attacks. Look at this thread and others that were closed through our eyes and the perspective of following the site rules, look at the posts that got edited and who made them.

On this site the mods are volunteers. Tres and I asked for this forum . In my case it was because of the flame wars I've read at other sites and I feel that folks need a chance to present thier views in a civil manner with out the flaming.
Don

For me, it's not really about what was said in other forums. It's about HC's motivations and history. There is much more to the story than what has been said on the forums. He left the EC in the middle of his term. I won't say why, you can ask your VP or somebody else who was around in that era. It was NOT a good time for the AMA, and a lot of great people were hurt by the actions of a certain few. No less a gentleman than William Winter himself, one of the greatest modellers of all time, left AMA in a huff, due to the actions of certain self-appointed "watchdogs".
This tiff here is nothing new. As a matter of fact, it goes all the way back to the Seventies. Do a little research, find out the real story.
And ask yourself why someone would run for AMA office in three different consecutive elections...first for President, then EVP, now DVIII VP...is that person's motivation to serve the AMA membership, or something else?
I don't mean this to sound like a personal attack. I could bite a lot harder if that was what I was going for.
This is a public debate about a political candidacy. You should do a little research and see what the candidates REALLY stand for.
Like Horrace, all politicians make florid campaign promises that don't really mean anything at all. Find out what this person is REALLY like, and THEN make up your mind on who you want to vote for.
Go look up some old issues of MA, they are on the AMA's website.

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by easytiger
Horrace, in 1980, when you were previously on the EC, representing District VI(an "OUTSIDER", as YOU would say), you found that four EC meetings a year was too much for you, and you proposed to limit it to two. It's right there in your own words in Model Aviation. Do you still feel like you were correct? Do you propose to limit the EC to two yearly meetings now?

Yep, two meetings would have been plenty back then. Two 3-day meetings could have been productive and saved $$$ which were in short supply back then. In a 2-day meeting, almost a day was taken in getting about 2/3s of the VPs up to speed on all the info that had been mailed to them and they never read prior to work time. As a 13 year military and then an airline pilot, I never understood why people came to work and were NOT prepared to handle the business at hand. They VOLUNTEERED and therefore if unable to come properly prepared to discuss current events, then IMO they should resign.

As for now, things may have changed. I will have to attend a meeting to see what happens. Time does change things and modeling is far more technical now. I reserve any judgments until I hear the testimony.


Horrace D. Cain

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by columbiarcdude
Mr. Cain,
Since you are at a primarily electric powered RC web site/forum, when was the last time you built/flew an electric powered RC airplane?

Tom

Man, I am out to lunch about that. The web has airplanes - fuel and then this Club thing with a forum "Academy of Model Aeronautics".

Now how and when did AMA become primarily electric? May not be a too distant future, but methinks NOT YET!:rolleyes:

I have not yet built an electric powered model airplane. Until forced to, the answer will remain same.

I have FLOWN several electric models within the past year, two sailplanes and one rather large sport scale model. The sailplanes in the Instructor Mode and the scale model for initial flights.

Getting ready I suppose. :eek: :eek:

How long since you flew a CL Stunt? Been a while for me too, that is in competition, but just a few months for fun in my backyard.

[easytiger]

Originally posted by Hossfly
Yep, two meetings would have been plenty back then. Two 3-day meetings could have been productive and saved $$$ which were in short supply back then. In a 2-day meeting, almost a day was taken in getting about 2/3s of the VPs up to speed on all the info that had been mailed to them and they never read prior to work time. As a 13 year military and then an airline pilot, I never understood why people came to work and were NOT prepared to handle the business at hand. They VOLUNTEERED and therefore if unable to come properly prepared to discuss current events, then IMO they should resign.

As for now, things may have changed. I will have to attend a meeting to see what happens. Time does change things and modeling is far more technical now. I reserve any judgments until I hear the testimony.


Horrace D. Cain

Hm. That's not what you wrote in MA way back when. Totally different story, that it was just too much time to take.

[easytiger]

So, you know nothing about electric flight and the issues that might pertain to that.

You mentioned the "bloated safety code" several times. There must be at least ONE specific rule that you have a problem with. Can't you name at least ONE that you want to change? If the safety code is "bloated", and we need fewer rules, I can't beleive you can't name ONE specific one that is a "problem". Or is the "less rules, bloated safety code" just political speak? Nothing really real?

[columbiarcdude]

Now how and when did AMA become primarily electric?

LOL who said anything about the AMA being mostly electric? FYI you are posting at the RCGroups web site. It has had around 1,315,400 posts. A quick scan shows 60-70,000 non-electric RC posts. So there have been about 1.25 million posts about electric flight.

I have not yet built an electric powered model airplane. Until forced to, the answer will remain same.

Interesting comment to make in a 95%+ electric web site.

[gwh]

My D8 ballot arrived today.

After reviewing some of your old columns in the MA Archives a few questions come to mind:

Are you still pursuing a position due to your "gross dissatisfaction?"

Since you said you were going to quit as D6 VP regardless of the out come of the '81 treasurer election, why didn't you give up your "lame duck" status earlier?

Why were you giving up and quitting the EC if you lost the treasurer election?

If elected, will you be a quitter again?

Why would we want to elect anyone as our VP that was beaten by write-in votes for Jim McNeil?

[easytiger]

Keep going. I feel like the truth is finally getting out.
When I posted about this on RCU, I got deleted.
There is this whole "alternate history" being presented by Horrace that is completely, diametrically opposed to what all the other EC members and others who were there experienced. I guess it takes about twenty years for people to forget what it was like.
But keep revealing the facts of what really happened, and maybe more people will understand WHY so many people like me are so against Horrace, and maybe people can make a better informed decision when they vote.

[J_R]

The incumbent in an AMA election is put on the ballot unless 3/4 of the nominating committee votes to leave the incumbent off the ballot, under the AMA by-laws.

Fact: Both District 6 VP Horrace Cain and President Earl Witt were left off the ballot.

The Model Aviation Magazine archives in the AMA Member's Only Section are an interesting read for any AMA member that wonders about the past of the AMA. The period of 1978 to about 1983 is very intersting reading. Most of the political information can be found easily by searching for "AMA News" after logging on to the archive.

JR

[J_R]

Bill Oberdieck, current D VII VP, once wrote a piece where he stated, and I paraphrase, "The one and only RIGHT of any AMA member is to vote."

Fact: During the nominating process this year Horrace Cain was nominated. He, in turn nominated two of his friends.

Fact: Sandy Frank, incumbent D8 VP, was nominated this year and in turn nominated his AVP and one of his contest coordinators.

Fact: Only three candidates may appear on the ballot.

JR

“What a person CAN and WILL do in the future is substantiated by what one HAS DONE in the PAST.” - Horrace Cain

[Don Sims]

FWIW Gents, the thread is getting much more civil than the others that you'll were involved in. Please keep it that way.
We have no issues with people presenting both sides of an election as long as all parties treat each other with some respect.
Thanks!
Don

[easytiger]

Originally posted by J_R
The incumbent in an AMA election is put on the ballot unless 3/4 of the nominating committee votes to leave the incumbent off the ballot, under the AMA by-laws.

Fact: Both District 6 VP Horrace Cain and President Earl Witt were left off the ballot.

The Model Aviation Magazine archives in the AMA Member's Only Section are an interesting read for any AMA member that wonders about the past of the AMA. The period of 1978 to about 1983 is very intersting reading. Most of the political information can be found easily by searching for "AMA News" after logging on to the archive.

JR

The rest of the EC felt that Horrace created such a disruption to the democratic process that they could not continue. Again, ASK AROUND about those who "worked" with HC up close and personal. Or just study the back issues of MA and see how just one or two people can do such dramatic harm by not being able to work with others.
It's not about imposing your will on the rest of the council...it's about thirteen elected representatives working together to find a concensus that best suits the needs to the majority of the members. Democracy and beaurocracy can be slow and frustrating sometimes, but it's the American way. What we do NOT need is a "Benevolent Dicatorship", which is was Horrace wants, what Tiano wanted. Without getting too personal, I know about HC's real-world political affiliations, and I DO think they are relevant to this conversation. The group he belongs to, the John Birch Society, is on the far, far right extreme of American Politics, and one of the basic concepts is that a few wise people can "decide" what is good for the rest of us. That's not what I want representing me in Muncie. I want someone who will LISTEN to what I want done, and execute THAT agenda, not one of their own.
Horrace states that he has some sort of secret plan on what he is going to do once he gets elected. Either there really IS no plan, or that plan is something that he does not want to reveal because it is contrary to what the constituency really wants.

Back to horrace's platform.
I have not seen any tangible answers here to the specific questions, so I guess it is fair to conclude that the statements about less rules and more flying fields are just empty window dressing to get elected. There does not seem to be any substance to them.

Anybody want to talk about Bill Winter's last column in Model Aviation, and the motor home watchdogs? Ugly episode in modeling history.

[Hossfly]

>>>>>>>>>>>
What we do NOT need is a "Benevolent Dicatorship", which is was Horrace wants, what Tiano wanted. Without getting too personal, I know about HC's real-world political affiliations, and I DO think they are relevant to this conversation. The group he belongs to, the John Birch Society, is on the far, far right extreme of American Politics, and one of the basic concepts is that a few wise people can "decide" what is good for the rest of us. That's not what I want representing me in Muncie. I want someone who will LISTEN to what I want done, and execute THAT agenda, not one of their own.
<<<<<<<<<<<<

If that is not *Double-Talk* at its best, then I ask you what is?

In a "Republic" like the USA, or any place where elected representatives make the policy then those "few wise men" like the AMA EC *thirteen* do make that policy.

A Republic is NOT a democracy.

The *tiger* says, "I want someone who will listen to what I want and execute THAT agenda, not one of their own."

In other words, the tiger wants someone else to do all the work yet do that work the way tiger thinks it should be done. Anyone with thoughts of their own does not qualify for tiger.

Is that why he calls himself *easy*?

TWO other points that makes all of tiger's rants so very superficial.

Tiger calls for democracy, yet he berates the one true organization that works for true Constitutional government, undiluted with liberal/Marxist control.

The other is that he KNOWS that I am a current member. Definitely a display of lack of knowledge. Tiger, the pain you feel is your own feet on it.

HC

[Hossfly]

“What a person CAN and WILL do in the future is substantiated by what one HAS DONE in the PAST.” - Horrace Cain
Posted By JR

Yep, JR, I will PASS THE INFO. TO THE MEMBERSHIP as I always did. There will be, as there are now, avenues outside the censorship of the VP MA columns, which were not so available back in my first EC era. Albeit, I did use the snail mail a bit back then.

Now JR, what about You? If I should win this election, just think how much you will have to snipe about. You can sit all day at your keyboard making programmed speeches about all the great EC persons EXCEPT one. You will have a blast. Aren't you looking forward to that?

The above is all that you HAVE done so it must therefore be what you will do with the "except one" twist added. Oh goody, I will have done one thing to make JR happy; I feel so warm and nice inside. YUCK!

[J_R]

Originally posted by Hossfly
“What a person CAN and WILL do in the future is substantiated by what one HAS DONE in the PAST.” - Horrace Cain
Posted By JR

Yep, JR, I will PASS THE INFO. TO THE MEMBERSHIP as I always did. There will be, as there are now, avenues outside the censorship of the VP MA columns, which were not so available back in my first EC era. Albeit, I did use the snail mail a bit back then.

<SNIP Unwarranted, Unture personal attack>

Mr. Cain

Your confirmation that you will again do what you have done in the past is appreciated.

Your confirmation means you will again quit in the middle of a term.

Your confirmation means you will again attack the members of the AMA Executive Council without fact, as evidenced in the MA archives.

Your confirmation means you will use bribery in any case you can as evidenced so clearly in another post on this group.

You have stated that you have a plan. You have stated that you will not reveal that plan until elected. How does this show concern for the AMA, it’s membership, or the hobby? IF you have a good idea, or ideas, and are not willing to share it, or them, unless your desire for personal gratification is satisfied, I see that as akin to the statement: “If you won’t play the game my way, I am going to take my ball and go home.” It would seem to be an entirely self-centered attitude that shows no concern for the good of anyone or anything else, other than yourself. With that attitude, how can you expect anyone to vote for you?

You have stated that the EC is trying to strangle pylon and combat. You have also posted a picture of your flying field. That picture would appear to show a road in the overfly area. We are all aware that a number of people have been hurt or killed during these events, in the past. The Special Interest Groups (SIG’s) for those events seem happy to pursue their pleasurable, fun and, in accordance with the current rules, safe events. The SIGs, AMA Safety Committee, and the EC have approved the current rules. You have not made clear exactly what your complaints with the current rules are. Is your complaint, really, that your field is too small to safely hold these events? Is your complaint that of the safety of the participants, spectators and anyone happening to drive down the road must be placed as the primary concern? Are your planes not subject to the laws of physics? Are your pilots so competent that there can NEVER be an accident? Are your radios so good that they NEVER have a problem? OR.. is it all simply that your own pleasure and self-gratification are more important than safety?

JR

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by J_R
Mr. Cain
//SNIP//
You have stated that you have a plan. You have stated that you will not reveal that plan until elected. How does this show concern for the AMA, it’s membership, or the hobby? IF you have a good idea, or ideas, and are not willing to share it, or them, unless your desire for personal gratification is satisfied, I see that as akin to the statement: “If you won’t play the game my way, I am going to take my ball and go home.”
//SNIP//
You have stated that the EC is trying to strangle pylon and combat. You have also posted a picture of your flying field. That picture would appear to show a road in the overfly area. We are all aware that a number of people have been hurt or killed during these events, in the past. The Special Interest Groups (SIG’s) for those events seem happy to pursue their pleasurable, fun and, in accordance with the current rules, safe events. The SIGs, AMA Safety Committee, and the EC have approved the current rules. You have not made clear exactly what your complaints with the current rules are. Is your complaint, really, that your field is too small to safely hold these events? Is your complaint that of the safety of the participants, spectators and anyone happening to drive down the road must be placed as the primary concern? Are your planes not subject to the laws of physics? Are your pilots so competent that there can NEVER be an accident? Are your radios so good that they NEVER have a problem? OR.. is it all simply that your own pleasure and self-gratification are more important than safety?

JR

Road in overfly: Lacking a bit in the photo-interpretation skills there, JR.
Shadows indicate field lays north and south with road either to west or east. Flying stations are separated from road by the shelter, therefore the road is NOT in overfly area.
Rather elementary I would believe. Then maybe as a long-ago graduate and 3.5 year user of skills from the USAF Advanced Navigation, Reconnaissance and Strategic Bombardment school where photo interpretation was a refined art, perhaps I am a bit too harsh on these very very basic pointers.

Road is west of field as east is toward the camera.

Concerning "safety", the distance requirements for RC Pylon and Combat, approved by the Safety Committee jokers and the EC, are what I relate as those rules made by Congress, Department of Transportation, and Home Security. All a bunch of hogwash EXCEPT for the armed pilot which is the ONLY thing that can provide some security. Of course that one is getting the dragging-foot support. JR, your passionate support for organizations is what organizations LOVE. With people like you, the organization can never be touched.
While the average SIG can operate at sanctioned events, the average club CANNOT operate on daily/weekend activities for pylon &/or combat. That is my gripe because the field has to be reset for a bud and myself to go chase around with a couple sport .60 ships. Without local fun, where do you think competition events originate?
We cannot either at my field or any other that I know of run local Pylon events without a waiver and a sanction, All that for "Sunday" flying? The newbies never get to see the events and all they do is run for another ARF, and soon go away.

Yes, the EC in their love for Insurance is strangling pylon/combat with rules.

Speaking of competent pilots, when you board an airliner, do you run to the cockpit and ask, "Are you competent?" "Do you promise that there will be no accident?" ZERO accident rate comes ONLY with NO FLYING. Thanks to organzational (governmental) edicts, there has been, in the last 15 years, a significant amount of incompetence allowed to enter the cockpit, which dilutes the entire force as standards are lowered for those of lesser abilities so entering by approval of the elite.

JR, your questions either relay a total lack of the real world, or they are simply the typical reporter-to-politician trying to create scandal where no scandal exists, or a job is being done without eons of $$ thrown at the non-accomplishers.

You once told me that you were through with me as I was not worth the key strokes. PLEASE PLEASE JR go back to that promise! OTOH I suppose you do welsh a bit on those promises, because when the EC pulls your strings, you just have to move.


Horrace D. Cain

[J_R]

What is this?

[J_R]

Originally posted by Hossfly
<SNIP>You once told me that you were through with me as I was not worth the key strokes. PLEASE PLEASE JR go back to that promise! OTOH I suppose you do welsh a bit on those promises, because when the EC pulls your strings, you just have to move.


Horrace D. Cain

Horrace

Since you brought it up and your memory seems to be failing, let me remind you of the circumstances the first time I made that statement. You brought a post from one forum to another. It was about a club that thought it was going to lose it’s field. You had posted that you were sorry for their loss. I got disgusted at your lack of concern. I wrote the AMA about the situation, which was well described in the post you imported, and the club was contacted by the AMA. Efforts are currently ongoing in an attempt to save that field. All you could do was say “sorry”. I started a typing a rant, and instead dismissed you as not worth the keystrokes. That was never a promise, just a statement of fact at the time.

I felt then, and I still do, that as a candidate for AMA office you should have offered more than condolences.

Instead, you choose to ridicule me for interfering in their problem. It certainly raised a concern among others as to how you would help retain flying fields if elected.

JR

[Don Sims]

Gents, you are starting to slip back to the kind of things that got your threads closed in the past and getting way-way off topic. Please keep it civil and comply with the site rules. Once again you are missing a huge opportunity to present your opinions in a non mud slinging, civil discourse to a lot of people, over 272 hits to this thread in a brand new forum could be 100 potential votes.
Don

I know most of the hits are folks wanting to see what are they gonna say next! ;)

[Don Sims]

BTW, I split the threads so the district 8 "Discussion" will be in the same thread instead of the Ballots are out one.
Don

[easytiger]

Originally posted by Don Sims
Gents, you are starting to slip back to the kind of things that got your threads closed in the past and getting way-way off topic. Please keep it civil and comply with the site rules. Once again you are missing a huge opportunity to present your opinions in a non mud slinging, civil discourse to a lot of people, over 272 hits to this thread in a brand new forum could be 100 potential votes.
Don

I know most of the hits are folks wanting to see what are they gonna say next! ;)


Well, if I look closely at the red circled area in the recon photo with a jewlers loupe, I see a SOVIET MADE SS-12 MEDIUM RANGE ICBM, pointed directly at Muncie! It's the 62 Cuba Crisis all over again...

[H Hand]

It's not an X-Files kind of thingie??? Maybe it's VWV or AMA upside down???

[easytiger]

Back to topic:

Horrace wrote:

"Concerning "safety", the distance requirements for RC Pylon and Combat, approved by the Safety Committee jokers "

Is the entire Safety Comittee composed of jokers? Are SOME jokers, and others okay? Can you name names? Are YOU better qualified than THEM on safety matters? How so? What experience do you have that they do not, that you can call them "Jokers"?

"and the EC, are what I relate as those rules made by Congress, Department of Transportation, and Home Security. All a bunch of hogwash"

Oh. That's an awfully big chunk of American Law to be "hogwash". All of the laws made by Congress are "hogwash". And the DOT has all these stupid rules, too, like requiring turn signals, Driver's Licenses, all this ridiculous stuff.


"EXCEPT for the armed pilot which is the ONLY thing that can provide some security. Of course that one is getting the dragging-foot support."

Yeah. Many people are actually quite afraid of giving airline pilots guns. I mean, learning to fly an airliner does not necessarily give you the training nor judgement to deal with a terrorist situation. I can think of at least ONE airline pilot right here who I would NOT want carrying a gun!




"JR, your passionate support for organizations is what organizations LOVE. With people like you, the organization can never be touched."


Then why are you bothering? Anyway, I have not seen JR to be a mute follower, he has his criticisms of AMA.


"While the average SIG can operate at sanctioned events, the average club CANNOT operate on daily/weekend activities for pylon &/or combat. That is my gripe because the field has to be reset for a bud and myself to go chase around with a couple sport .60 ships."

It's that whole DEATH thing, Horrace. Someone DIED in a pylon judging cage. So changes HAD to be made. Last I looked, AMA had spent close to $100,000 building new pylon cages that are available to anybody who needs them. Does NOT sound like the AMA is trying to kill pylon racing.
To run a pylon race properly requires judges to be right in the middle of course...those people need to be safe. A pylon race requires all sorts of OTHER stuff, too, timers, flags, a total of about a dozen people to run a single race. No, it's not an ordinary Sunday flyer type event, it's quite sophisticated.
But, in a nutshell...it's the DEATH thing. That's why there are rules on pylon racing.
Maybe you did not KNOW about the past history?

"Without local fun, where do you think competition events originate?
We cannot either at my field or any other that I know of run local Pylon events without a waiver and a sanction, All that for "Sunday" flying?"

What "wavier" are you talking about?
Are you "sunday flying", or are you having a pylon race? Which one? If you are talking Ace T-6s Club racing, nobody cares. If you are talking 200mph Formula ONe or Quarter Midget, either run it properly and safely, or you are a fool. I mean, the risks are KNOWN and PROVEN.

"The newbies never get to see the events and all they do is run for another ARF, and soon go away."

What's wrong with ARFs? The very FIRST model airplanes were ARFs. ARFs have always been with us. Jim Walker got more modellers started than ANYBODY else, and it was all with ARFs. Do you not like ARFS? Something against ARFS? Would you like to legislate against them?

"Yes, the EC in their love for Insurance is strangling pylon/combat with rules."


I don't see where the EC "loves insurance." It's just a necessary evil of life today. As a matter of fact, AMA has been providing insurance since 1942. I'm sorry, Horrace, we DO need insurance. Neither of the owners of both local fields I fly at will so much as allow you to WALK on their property without insurance, much less let you FLY there.
And...how has AMA "strangled" combat? By making you wear a helmet, so you don't get hit by a Norvel 15 with an APC propeller doing 16K? HOW did they kill combat.
Please back up your statements with fact.

[Hossfly]

What is this?

<<<<<<<<<<

Like I said JR, you are a bit passionate for your own good. You are displaying your paranoia.

Very simple. It is the drainage ditch that surrounds the well manicured and nicely contoured 100 x 600' grass runway and parking area, then into the road ditches, the state maintained drainage.
During any period except monsoon rains the ditch remains well contoured and mowed and 99.9% of the airplanes never enter it.
If they do they simply roll through.
The club Pres. took the picture from his model. He is in north station, #1.
You can see water in the ditch in the upper left of the picture. The highway ditch sometimes blocks up the culvert and water remains there for several days after rains like last Oct/Nov when we had a most unusual Gulf low pressure wx. system.

Our runway, pit and parking have never suffered for any rain in the 7.5+ years of our existence here. We called one event because we elected not to have traffic on the soft runway that weekend. Not bad for a semi-tropical area.

Hey JR, what would you charge to make one of your famous phone calls and revise our TX weather system?
Our choice is Sun, breeze of 5mph down the runway either direction (we all know how to make right turns to final), and a 1" rain shower on Monday night between 11PM and 5AM for the grass.
Can you and the EC arrange that?
Thank you much. I knew you could. I'll put it in the newsletter. Everyone will be soooo happy.

[J_R]

Horrace

In the original picture, the one you posted without my squiggle (I never calimed to be an artist) it appears that a dirt road runs through the area. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1345525#post1345525 for those that want to look.

After re-reading your post three times, I am still not certain that your not saying a dirt road is there. Please clarify. If it is, indeed a dirt road, how much traffic is on it?

JR

[easytiger]

Who cares about his field? It's a field, I can't take that accomplishment away from him, it's a place to fly.
I am more concerned with his answers to questions about campaign statements.

[J_R]

easytiger

The field has to do with the safety rules for pylon and combat. IIRC early last year, one of the AMA's new cages was penetrated. TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT! The event was stopped on the spot. The AMA withdrew the cages because of the liability.

The upshot was that the rules for pylon and combat were changed. All course personell were moved off the course and IIRC a 300' seperation is required between the course and the pilots, with an additional 100' seperation to the spectator/pit area. That must be what Horrace is carping about, having to move the flight line each time pylon is run. They probably do not have 100' to the flight line from the pits, although it is hard to tell from the photo. It is also difficult to tell form the picture how far the dirt road, if it is a dirt road is from the flight line. There are other consequences if there is traffic on that road.

Given Horrace's disdain for rules of any sort, he may not want to discuss this fruther. That may be the reason he did not dispute your post.

If you want the latest information on the rules, first look at the Safety Code, as it was changed last year. Then you must look at the rules themselves in the competition regulations.

The above information is from memory. Again, IIRC, the setback is dependent on engine size. The larger the engine, the more seperation required.

JR

[easytiger]

Totally correct, the rules recently changed.

Correct me if I am wrong...haven't there been TWO fatalities related to cages being penetrated?

[easytiger]

Originally posted by Hossfly
>>>>>>>>>>>
What we do NOT need is a "Benevolent Dicatorship", which is was Horrace wants, what Tiano wanted. Without getting too personal, I know about HC's real-world political affiliations, and I DO think they are relevant to this conversation. The group he belongs to, the John Birch Society, is on the far, far right extreme of American Politics, and one of the basic concepts is that a few wise people can "decide" what is good for the rest of us. That's not what I want representing me in Muncie. I want someone who will LISTEN to what I want done, and execute THAT agenda, not one of their own.
<<<<<<<<<<<<

If that is not *Double-Talk* at its best, then I ask you what is?

In a "Republic" like the USA, or any place where elected representatives make the policy then those "few wise men" like the AMA EC *thirteen* do make that policy.

A Republic is NOT a democracy.

The *tiger* says, "I want someone who will listen to what I want and execute THAT agenda, not one of their own."

In other words, the tiger wants someone else to do all the work yet do that work the way tiger thinks it should be done. Anyone with thoughts of their own does not qualify for tiger.

Is that why he calls himself *easy*?

TWO other points that makes all of tiger's rants so very superficial.

Tiger calls for democracy, yet he berates the one true organization that works for true Constitutional government, undiluted with liberal/Marxist control.

The other is that he KNOWS that I am a current member. Definitely a display of lack of knowledge. Tiger, the pain you feel is your own feet on it.

HC

I'm sorry, I really did not understand most of the above, can somebody interpret this for me?

[easytiger]

What about turbine issues? What is your stance on the 55 dry proposal? Tiered wavier system? Buddyboxing? Are you aware of any of the salient issues?

[Hossfly]

Originally posted by easytiger
I'm sorry, I really did not understand most of the above, can somebody interpret this for me?

As the Marines say about "Semper Fi".

If you know, no explanation is needed.

If you don't know all the explanations in the world cannot make you understand.

By your own words, it cannot be explained to you.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


HC

[J_R]

Originally posted by easytiger
Totally correct, the rules recently changed.

Correct me if I am wrong...haven't there been TWO fatalities related to cages being penetrated?

I am not sure of the exact number of deaths. The deaths using cages were the ones the SIG's supplied. To the best of my knowledge, none were caused using the AMA constructed cages, but, when one was penetrated, that was enough. I am not sure how many deaths and injuries took place before cages were used.

Pylon and Combat are fun, and great sports. Extra saftey measures are necessary to make certain that no one else is hurt.

JR

[J_R]

Originally posted by easytiger
I'm sorry, I really did not understand most of the above, can somebody interpret this for me?

No, but that is typical.

The only part I did manage to figure out is that he killed off two members of the EC. Not sure why or how.

It is amazing how little he knows about the operation of the AMA, having been a District 6 VP.

easytiger, I think you hit the nail on the head when you suggested that he is looking for the title of "benovelent dictator" of the AMA. Unfortunately for Horrace, like the 13 member EC, it does not exist.

JR

[easytiger]

Originally posted by Hossfly
As the Marines say about "Semper Fi".

If you know, no explanation is needed.

If you don't know all the explanations in the world cannot make you understand.

By your own words, it cannot be explained to you.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


HC

Er, Horrace, since you were never a Marine, but it the Iowa Air National Guard, I guess YOU would not understand either?
All the fine Jarheads I know always take offense when people who are NOT Marines say "semper fi, if you don't know..."
Especially people they consider complete pantywaists, like Air National Guardsmen with no combat experience.
The USMC is a great organization, don't try to let a little of their glory rub off on you by trying "semper fi."

Anyway...the reason I cannot understand you has nothing to do with Parris Island, it's more about grammar and punctuation.
I can't find that babelfish translation site, maybe you can rephrase this into English? Or French. Though I sincerely doubt if you speak French.

"TWO other points that makes all of tiger's rants so very superficial.

Tiger calls for democracy, yet he berates the one true organization that works for true Constitutional government, undiluted with liberal/Marxist control.

The other is that he KNOWS that I am a current member. Definitely a display of lack of knowledge. Tiger, the pain you feel is your own feet on it."

Please clarify.
And...I want to ask you AGAIN about the issues, which you seem to work REALLY hard at avoiding.

[J_R]

Originally posted by easytiger
<SNIP>
Please clarify.
<SNIP>


easytiger

I have always found it strange, as you do, that the man will not stand up and state what he is and what he stands for, either in his real political world, or the one he would like for the AMA. I don't believe he belongs to the John Birch Society. The Birch members I have known in the past certainly were not afraid to stand up for their convictions. None would hide behind rethoric.

He reminds me very much of something I was told some time ago. A cute little story. Word has it that the Energizer Bunny was based on the real life of Adlai Stevenson, the great American politician. Horrace reminds me very much of Adlai... he keeps running and running and running and..

JR

PS you notice he did not reply about the road. Maybe he is afraid someone will tell AMA and no longer give him wiavers to conduct pylon races or combat.

[easytiger]

I know of two different modellers who actually BUILT energizer bunnies for TV commercials. One is a Californian name Jim Keeshin, a collector of vintage Eureka control ine multi kits, the other is Master Modeller Graeme Mears of Toronto, many time Top Gun and Toledo winner.
Just thought you would like to know.

I don't know about the proximity of the road. It may or may not be a road. In my OPINION, the field is a mite small for pylon. That's not a FACT, just an OPINION.
I have no problem with the AMA rules for pylon...it's a damn dangerous aspect of the hobby, it exposes all of us to a lot of extra risk, and it is enjoyed by only a few. And it has a PROVEN track record of risk. So extra rules to keep it safe are needed. AND...you cannot rely on the SIGs to make the rules. All too often they say "why pick on pylon? it's much safer than JETS or GIANT scale, etc., etc, we don't need any rules..."
Hence the need for a safety committee to look at the input of the SIGs and then make a more even-handed decision.
Any time the Safety Commitee (excuse me...the "jokers" on the SC, as horrace called them) makes a rule, somebody is always calling "foul". It's pretty old hat.
We would all like to be able to fly turbine pylon racers without mufflers while standing on the front lawn buck naked. ME, I'm a perfect pilot, with Yeageresque reflexes, so I can handle it, of course, but since not all others can, I guess we DO need some rules to keep people from acting like idiots.
Actually...it's NOT all about people acting like idiots.
Many of the rules are about DEFINING and LIMITING the risk than our insurers will be exposed to.
In other words...without a weight limit, our insurance company does not know if they will face a claim from a 400 pound airplane that crashes into a house. So, they don't know what the risks are, and cannot or will not write a policy. They are in the business of "risk management", and there need to be clear definitions of what they are up against.

[Don Sims]

Gents, another one closed because of the personal insults.
Don