AXI 28XX/XX motors compatibility

[rclark]

Is there any known problems or anything one should know (reprogram?) before using an AXI 28XX/XX motor with CC controllers? I have an AXI 2808/20 (on the way) and an 2814/12 (haven't used it yet) . Just recieved a CC 45 amp controller for the 2814 . Was planning on using a Phoenix-25 on the 2808 (although I might use the 45 amp version initially -- way overkill I know but it's the only one 'loose' :) ) ....

PS : I did do a search and the only thing that came up was noise problems and rough running at lower rpms... Still a problem?

[Shawn Palmer]

We're working on a software "fix" as we speak, that should be available late June/early July. The majority of the feedback we're getting is when used w/the upper end of the cell count range and amp draw, there can be a loss of "sync" between the motor and ESC causing vibrative running.

If you're running at the low end of the cell count range, there is a good chance all will be fine - if not, the above fix will be available for free soon.

Shawn Palmer
Product Specialist
shawnp@castlecreations.com
www.castlecreations.com

[rclark]

Thanks Shawn. BTW it is already early July -- June is gone ;) LOL . FYI, I got the CC 45A Controller today directly from you folks. I'll by running the 2808 on 8 and 9 cell HE and KAN packs....

[Shawn Palmer]

uh...whoops - make that "late July/early August" - I lost a month there somewhere, sorry!

Shawn

[rclark]

Well, I think I am experiencing the problem on my Phoenix-45, 2808/20, 9 KAN cells, APC 9x4.5E prop. Low RPMs seem okay. I advance the throttle and at about 3/4 thottle I get a loss of power and a high pitched squeal . I advance to full and I get some power back but now runs a little rough.

I also noticed that I can start the motor, then back off a bit until the motor cuts, then advance the throttle and 'nothing' happens. I have to go all the way back to no thottle setting. Then motor starts up again as you advance the throttle.....

Would I have the same problem with the Phoenix-25?

[TasMike]

I'd willingly pay another $20 and carry another two/three ounces if I could be sure of a rock solid, glitch free speedo for my 28.20.10 on ten cells. And I don't think I'm alone... TasMike

[gabi_isr]

I also noticed that I can start the motor, then back off a bit until the motor cuts, then advance the throttle and 'nothing' happens. I have to go all the way back to no thottle setting. Then motor starts up again as you advance the throttle.....

Hi
I have the same problem - sometimes the motor is not starting and i get vibrations like the motor doesn't "know" what is the right direction.
i'm using Phoenix 45, 2820/12 and 10 cells 2400mA/h.
i will not fly till this problem will be solved.
hope it will be fixed soon
Gabi

[rclark]

I am 'worried' about flying it this way as well. I was planning on a maiden this week.... but now it looks like I may have to put it off..... All is on hold :( .

I think my wife would 'deck' me at this point if I tried to buy another controller for the motor....... But have to ask -- will the P25 or P35 work (All I need for this project is < 25 Amp draw) or do they have the same problem???? :confused: :confused:

Hurry with the fixes :) . Do we have to send in the controller to get reprogrammed???

Note I have 3 CC-25s and 1 Jeti-18 and they all work flawlessly other motors....

[Shawn Palmer]

We're going as fast as we can w/the fixes! Brenda and I have locked Patrick in the "dungeon" and are feeding him Mountain Dew and candy bars 24/7 until it's DONE!!

Shawn

[Shawn Palmer]

(I don't mean to make light if you are unable to fly b/c of waiting for the fix - we are taking this seriously I assure you, just my nature to joke around a little - no offense meant!)

[rclark]

None Taken :p :) .

Q1: But would a CC-25 work or does it have the same problem? I could temporarily move one from one of my other motors just to get this one in the air -- if I could be assured that it would work!

Q2: Will the P45 work with a B20L (or does it have problems as well with the Hacker)? I could move it to my other plane and swap controllers (a Jeti-18).....

PS : Let Patrick out once in awhile to fly with an AXI motor to test the controller ;) . Get some fresh air :D .

[TasMike]

Gabi, What frequency do you fly? I'd love Patrick to be released to fly an AXI on 36MHz. Rgds, TasMike

[FLY ELECTRIC]

Shawn,
I have a CC45 that I daren't use with my AXI 2820/10 for both the above issue and the snubber issue (see 45" Tucano thread in Open Discussion) for use with 35Mhz in the UK.
Will the free bugfix for AXI use also cover re-setting of the snubber on my Phoenix 45 when I return it? (it is the twin-board version). It would be nice to finally fly with a completely bug-free brushless ESC at last!
thanks,
Nige.

[gabi_isr]

Originally posted by TasMike
Gabi, What frequency do you fly? I'd love Patrick to be released to fly an AXI on 36MHz. Rgds, TasMike

Hi TesMike
my radio frequency is 72.680Mhz
i didn't have any radio problems (yet). the main problem is that the motor sometimes don't start when i open the throtell, especially when i'm doing it very slow.
i'm live in Israel and i'll be happy to invite patrick to fly with me here....

[Steve_Bennington]

I decided to try my AXI 2820/10 11*7 and 10 1700cp cells....

8100RPM at 35A static - That's pretty efficient!!!!!!!!!

Smooth start, smooth running, although the power cut at full throttle almost every time for the first minute.. (Fresh peaked pack)

Changing to fixed throttle and insensitive overcurrent fixed this.. (Shawn I hope this is ok to do).

All other settings left as default..

In terms of vibration, there was only a barely discernable whine at WOT. Mind you, 11khz is in the audible range!!

The current should reduce in flight, so should fall within the controllers constant current rating....

Have I missed something, or does this vibration problem only occur in flight?

The AXI used is the 'newer' type, with the circlip up front...

My controller is CC Phoenix 35 (twin board, snubbed below 50Mhz)

Hope this data is useful anyway...

OK to fly do you think? range tests okay BTW!!

Regards,

Steve

[Steve_Bennington]

Nige,

Send your Phoenix 45 Controller back to Ian from
http://www.E-flight.co.uk
and he will swap it for you at no charge... nice man..

I find it hard to believe, with the AXI 2828/10 having been around for ages, that the Phoenix seris have trouble driving it!

Shawn, Are you sure the problem affects this motor, and not the Larger AXI models on say 16, or 17 Cells??!

Love to know...

Regards,

Steve

[Shawn Palmer]

See, the crazy thing is - I myself have flown the same combo as Steve (10X8 folder) - and I never had an issue w/it. I think (total conjecture here) there is some inconsistency in the manufacturing process that some motors are "less compatible" re: "more EMF noisy" than others, of the exact same type.

Steve, if your in fixed throttle mode, I'd recomend backing the top endpoint down to where you dont hear the "whine" at WOT, and I personally don't see a reason to not fly - in our experience/feedback - they either work fine or they DON'T - period.

Also - it seems more folks have issues w/high cell counts and/or high currents. the ratio of problems seems to get much larger on the bigger/higher cell versions of the AXI's

more later...he's calling for a snickers
Shawn

[Steve_Bennington]

10*8 Folder? Surely you mean 11*7 APCe.. The whine is barely discernable, I won't worry about it if you're not!!!

Thanks for the support!!

Regards,

Steve

[Shawn Palmer]

No, I meant 10X8 folder - it was on a .40 size Lanier Shrike - no L/G.

The "whine" is the beginning of the controller loosing sync w/the motor - not good for each, so back the endpoint down a smidge and you should be fine.

Shawn

[Steve_Bennington]

Shawn,

Okay, I'll stay grounded and wait for the update... a dive at near full power could push the prop speed too high, lose sync, problem!!!!

Regards,

Steve

[B717 Furloughee]

Either I am oblivious or I guess I don't have a problem with my Axi 2820/12, 12X8, 10/2600NiMH with Phoenix 45?!? I've run it WOT on ground and in flight and it seems to be running very nice. I don't have an amp-meter to measure the numbers.

Question: How do I determine if I have a newer/older batch of Phoenix 45 and/or Axi 2820/12?:confused:
Thanks...

[Shawn Palmer]

Like I said - I've flown a combo w/o problems that other folks have reported DEFINITE problems with - It may be a "luck of the draw" thing regarding the motors.

You either see it, or you don't.
Shawn

[TasMike]

Hi, I was hoping that a Phoenix 45 would be a cure for my horrendous glitching with Jeti 40 3P and AXI 28.20.10. (Details on the Tucano thread). With four of you fellows preferring to stay grounded, (two on 35MHz) and only B717 (72MHz, I presume) happy, I'd like to see these threads full of good news before taking the plunge.
Rgds, TasMike

[rclark]

Well, I decided to fly with the P45 anyway. So far so 'good' after 6 flights on my 52" Acrocub

See my flight reports here :

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120874&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

I have to takeoff on half throttle; but plenty of power to do so. Level flight I can open it up (does it ever go BTW :D ) and not have the loss of power problem. I just stay away from WOT vertical climbs which bog the motor.... Going to try 8 cells (flying with 9 currently) to see if the problem goes away.....

[Steve_Bennington]

Guys,

My CC Phoenix 45 arrived today so thought i'd run it up!

10 cells, AXI2820/10 11*7 APCe.

Motor runs smoothly, but suddenly (and without screetching) cuts at full power (35a)

I can understand it on the 35, that's why I set insensitive overcurrent. But why the 45 is doing it is a mystery.

The only thing left to change on the controller is timing!!

Any one else had this??

Regards,

Steve

[Shawn Palmer]

Steve - it's not cutting from overcurrent, it's loosing sync w/the motor at RPM. You may want to try backing the timing down a notch.

Another user had a similar thing - he said it would stop cutting after the batts were down slightly on power, and then no probs at all. (30 secs or so of run time)

Shawn

[Steve_Bennington]

OK Shawn, I'll change from Standard to Low advance timing.. but yes it does stop cutting after 30 seconds of running!

Looks like a fix... I'll try it!

Thanks again

Regards,

Steve

[rclark]

I concur, I didn't know what the 'time' was -- but later into the flight, I can use the full throttle range without loss of synch (power) .

[FredericG]

Hi Shawn,

I just tested an AXI2808/20 with a Phoenix-35: both brand new. I used 8 cells and a 9/5 prop. At 3/4 full throttle, the engine starts screaming and looses power. When I lower the timing (“low advance timing”) the problem seem to disappear. Is it certain this be the “loosing sync” problem you mentioned in one of your first mail or is it possible that there is something wrong with the motor?

I also have another question. As this is a pusher-setup I had to swap two wires. Trying to solve the problem mentioned above I have been trying swapping other wires and now I have the motor running in reverse (correct for the pusher mode) while the wires are not swapped (red to red, black to black and white to yellow). How is this possible?

Thanks,
Frederic

[rclark]

FYI, set the timing to low this afternoon on the P45 and the 'loss of power' squeal has gone away :D . Have full static throttle control now on a peaked 9 cell battery. Field test Monday..... But looks like a 'fix'!

BTW Thanks patrick for an AUDIBLE Beeps rather than just looking at the light as my ESC was in a rather inexcessable place to 'look' at while programming :) .

Frederic, Swapping any two wires reverses the direction of the motor. The motor and ESC doesn't care what is connected to what. Simple :) .

[Steve_Bennington]

OK a few notes...

Low advance timing really robs RPM!! but does work. setting high advance timing really screetches the motor and is unusable, yet high advance timing on the Hacker Controller works just great!!)

My new CC 45 will jitter the motor for about 2 seconds before it starts, I got 8 bad starts in 10.. tried with differnt 2820/10s too. same result

My 35, starts the AXI smoothly, everytime. settings for 45 and 35 are the same and have been checked/rechecked.

Radio range is reduced too on the 45... Maybe i've got a faulty CC 45 ESC. I can't handle those bad starts, as it jitters in flight for restarts, even with the windmilling prop (Brake disabled as a test)

Rapidly losing faith here...

Regards,

Steve

[t.nollett]

on my 35 i was told to set the throttle to fixed to stop the controller hunting for end points. and its worked great ever since.
it's the updated 35. the old one caused the motor to chatter.

t.n

[Steve_Bennington]

I'm using fixed throttle!!! on both...

I guess I've been sent an old one Maybe?

Regards,

Steve

[gabi_isr]

Steve
I have exactly the same phenomena. Most of the time the motor is not starting and sometimes it starts in the opposite direction and correct to the right direction.
(cc-45, 2820/12, and 10 cells 2400mA/h)

[Shawn Palmer]

"chattering starts" are also a symptom w/the AXI's that will be corrected in the software update.

Shawn

[Steve_Bennington]

Shawn...

I thought the 35 and the 45 share the same Software and Board, but the 35 has a few less mosfets?

How then does my 35 smooth start both my AXIS, yet my 45 chatters both my AXIS??

It has been sent back as faulty....

Regards,

Steve

[rclark]

FYI,

Well the 'low' timing fixed the squeal problem in the field as well. Got in 4 flights today without a problem (1 8 cell flight, 3 9 cell flights). While not quite as much power, I still had more than plenty to move my 26oz AcroCub around. The plane 'leaps' into the air now :) when I open it up on takeoff :eek: :D . I'm satisfied with the fix...... Thanks for mentioning it.

As for the seeking (prop going back and forth) at startup, most all my brushless setups do it (Even the Jeti18 and Hacker B20L+4:1). No big deal to me -- just part of using a BL motor. The only exception is my CC-25 and mega1615/5 DD setup. It just spools up. I suspect it's because of the 'small' prop.

[TasMike]

I'm still looking for a glitch-free speedo for 28.20.10 and ten cells on 35-36MHz. I see the ModelMotors 40 16 3P has a good press, after all they make the AXIs, and in looking for one on sale locally I was referred to an MGM 40 3P, with website www.mgm-compro.com . The website looks to have been cut short (or not yet finished) and so the info I really want isn't there.

[TasMike]

I'm still looking for a glitch-free speedo for 28.20.10 and ten cells on 35-36MHz. I see the ModelMotors 40 16 3P has a good press, after all they make the AXIs, and in looking for one on sale locally I was referred to an MGM 40 3P, with website www.mgm-compro.com . The website looks to have been cut short (or not yet finished) and so the info I really want isn't there.

[TasMike]

Has any subscriber used one of their speedos? Especially on the frequency range above?

[gabi_isr]

Originally posted by TasMike
Has any subscriber used one of their speedos? Especially on the frequency range above?

Hi
go to "more info"
copy the attached link
http://www.mgm-compro.cz/en/index.php?main=info1

[TasMike]

Thanks, Gabi. TasMike

[Steve_Bennington]

Guys,

Thanks to the prompt and excellent Service at http://www.e-flight.co.uk I now have a replacement Phoenix 45 ESC....

This one smooth starts every time with not a hint of a jitter.

However, on the other one I could get away with Normal timing, and Insensitive overcurrent and get 8800 RPM from 10 cells.IMHO the only fix this controller required was for its 2 second delayed, jittery starts.

This replacement needs Low advance timing, AND insensitive overcurrent in order to run, and only gives me 7800 RPM on 10 cells, thus losing the unlimited vertical capability of the model..

Both these controllers tried were from the same US shipment...

I'm flying with another 9 Tucano fliers at Walsall 2 day fly-in in a couple of weeks, and don't want to be left behind by the MM, Jeti and Hacker esc equipped flyers!!

I've asked before but got no reply 'How can we tell what software version our controllers are at?' i'm assuming that we can't tell, and neither can CC!!

Shawn, Why should there be so much variation between 2 ESCs from the same shipment??

Regards,

Steve

[B717 Furloughee]

Interesting,
My CC-45 runs well on 10 cells except for a jittery start. I am using normal timing. After reading Steve's experience, I might just stick with the lessor of the two evils.

[Steve_Bennington]

Guys...

Another Observation...

CC45 AXI2820/10 11*7 Normal timing, on 8 GP3300 cells, I get 7600 RPM... Thats 600 RPM more than any other ESC I've tried... Flies superbly at that, no glitches... very smooth indeed!!!

I guess i'll have to wait for the update... B17... Stick with that ESC.. but do regularly check your firewall, as an LRK (outrunner) class motor Jittering will do much more damage than a classic brushless motor jittering.. not a good idea to restart it in flight either... having the brake off doesn't help....

All in all, at 8 cells, this ESC is FANTASTIC!!

I hope i can exchange it though when the 10 cell fix is out... oh to have 8,800RPM again!!!

I see Shawn has seen fit to skirt round this thread today.....

Cheers,

Steve

[Shawn Palmer]

I'm here - I was in the back taking turns w/Brenda whipping Patrick to work faster!

As for the variation - I'm up in arms:(

If I had the money, I'd order 100 AXI's of the same model, line them up on a bench w/the same cells, same prop, and 100 of our controllers, and see what happens. But, enough fantasy - soon it will be done and everyone will be happy again (until the next cheapo motor surfaces that is...)

Shawn

[TasMike]

I've just received an E-mail from Schulze's Ulf Herder.
"..microprocessor in the 'Futures' (all types with more than 11 cells maximum) is running with 10MHz, so third harmonics is 30MHz and fourth 40MHz. Most brushless controllers have an 8MHz microprocessor, so fourth harmonics of the clock is 36MHz." (He recommends a Future 18.36) Comments, anyone? Especially those with Txs on 36MHz. Rgds, TasMike

[BEC]

Mike,

The Model Motors ESC IS an MGM Compro with a different label on it. An MM 40-16-3P is an MGM ComPro TMM 4016-3ph. So far as I know they are otherwise identical.....

As for 8 MHz, 10 MHz, etc. - Patrick or Shawn or Brenda will have to chime in here. The only thing that looks like a resonater on the Phoenix-10 I happen to have here with me is marked "20.00".

[TasMike]

Thank you, BEC, for light on the subject. I'd like to hear authoritative comment on the third order interference problem, too. TasMike

[TasMike]

Another suggestion from an electronics qualified mate is to fit ferrite beads to the leads from AXI to speedo,- looping them through the bead- the hope being that this will reduce the back emf being radiated and which is currently (sorry) degrading the wave form from square and allowing nasties to get in to the Rx antenna. Suggestions? Comments? At any rate it's worth a try and cheaper than a new speedo... TasMike

[Steve_Bennington]

Mike...

My understanding is that the way a 'sensorless' controller works is by sensing the back emf generated in order to determine rotor position.. reducing this back emf will only make the controller lose sync earlier??!

I may also be completely wrong about this.....

Regards,

Steve

[Tim Jonas]

Just fired up my AXI/Phoenix 45 combo. Slick, no problem.

[TasMike]

An E-mail just in from Nige sez he got appalling glitches with AXI 28.20.10 and a HM 40, yet when tried with a Mega 22.30.3, no problem. Hence, he thinks, the problem is in the AXI producing spikes. (An electronics qualified mate also thinks the AXI 'is one noisy bugger'). Now which speedo manufacturer is/ will be first to cure the spikiness of AXIs? - if that indeed is the problem! As for Tim's results, good on him, but he's on 72MHz, I guess, which may be an advantage.. Rgds, TasMike

[Tim Jonas]

Originally posted by TasMike
As for Tim's results, good on him, but he's on 72MHz, I guess, which may be an advantage.. Rgds, TasMike

Excellent point....I wouldn't have even thought of that.

[gabi_isr]

Shawn
Can you please update us about program fixing schedule?
We are in the early August and it will be fair to receive an update about the status.
Thanks
Gabi

[B717 Furloughee]

Originally posted by B717 Furloughee
Either I am oblivious or I guess I don't have a problem with my Axi 2820/12, 12X8, 10/2600NiMH with Phoenix 45?!? I've run it WOT on ground and in flight and it seems to be running very nice. I don't have an amp-meter to measure the numbers.

Update,
I just tried a static run-up with the P-45 set to advanced-timing and the motor squealed around 1/2 throttle. I returned the timing to standard and all is well again. Hope it didn't cause any damage? I haven't tried low-timing, but don't think I'll need it if all is well at standard. I WAS hoping to run at advanced-timing to get max power from the motor, but oh well.

[Shawn Palmer]

Anyone currently having problems running outrunners needs to shoot me a mail at: shawnp@castlecreations.com

Thanks,
Shawn

[Steve_Bennington]

An E-mail just in from Nige sez he got appalling glitches with AXI 28.20.10 and a HM 40

Appaling is not the word!! Just tried it with my HM40 that is the same revision as Niges, and it nearly cost me the model (I didn't have Andy Johnson around to take over!!). Next flight was with the Phoenix 45, and was as smooth as silk.. apart from regular bad places in our field.. I can live with the odd glitch when its over 30 degrees!!!

Castle creations gets my vote for running AXIs... and that's pre-axi fix!!

Regards,

Steve

[Shawn Palmer]

fix is in:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140226

[TasMike]

Shawn, That sounds like very good news: it seems as tho' you're the only manufacturers on this thread and the only ones publicly to be working on our problems One question, tho',- you say '100% compatibility with outrunners'. Does this mean also 100% with all r/c frequencies worldwide? I know you say it's illegal to transmit on 35 - 36 MHz in the U.S., but if your previous controllers have caused glitching, haven't you been doing just that? Rgds, TasMike

[Shawn Palmer]

TasMike,

No, the frequency thing is actually being worked on right now that the software is done.

We've bought a spectrum analyser, and Patrick is exploring the other band issues with it now. This is priority #1 now that his work on the update is done.

Shawn

[TasMike]

Good on you! Will this mean an 'even newer version' in the works for us long-suffering 36MHz-ers? Rgds, TasMike

[Shawn Palmer]

The software will stay the same, but there will most likely be hardware additions/changes when Patrick figures it out.

Shawn

[TasMike]

Marvellous news. Any thoughts on a timeline, Shawn? Us 36ers are an impatient crew... TasMike

[Flint]

Originally posted by TasMike
Good on you! Will this mean an 'even newer version' in the works for us long-suffering 36MHz-ers? Rgds, TasMike

I have just bought a Phoenix 25, I used it once and got very bad glitching and as a result crashed my GWS Zero (no damage). I assumed it was my receiver, am I to understand that due to the ESC using 36mhz that it is useless to me?

[TasMike]

Hi Flint. The AEFA newsletter report on the July 7 cell soarer results says "warning to potential CC Phoenix buyers. The ESC generates very bad glitching in 30 - 50 MHz range - that's why USA is not affected. We have heaps in Melbourne going back to the States."
Let's credit Castle with the energy to get stuck in to these problems: I E-mailed Jeti/Hacker about b-y awful glitching with a new Master 40 and have had NIL response. Rgds, TasMike

[Flint]

Darn!!!! $120 well spent :rolleyes: I have already sent an email to Aircraft-World asking if I can exchange it for a Jeti, l hope they do.

Cheers

Edited for minor swearing....family site, you know!

[TasMike]

The whole question of speedos and outrunner motors is now being discussed at the Nigel Hawes NEW 45" Tucano thread: 79 pages and still going strong..

[TasMike]

The whole question of speedos and outrunner motors is now being discussed at the Nigel Hawes NEW 45" Tucano thread: 79 pages and still going strong..

[mstone]

TasMike,

I don't question the fact that you are having problems.

I'm flying on 36Mhz in South Oz.

I've got a Phoenix 25 which I run with a Mini AC 1215/16 with a
JR610M receiver without any problems so far.

A flying buddy has a Phoenix 25 with a Mega 16/15/4 on a Zagi with JETI REX 5 receiver without any problems.

So I guess we have been lucky (?) so far.

Both these receivers are single conversion maybe the interference is with the intermediate frequency of a dual conversion receiver ? If you are using one ?

Now if I could get that GWS 480 unit to work as well as the
Phoenix 25 I'd be happy.

Mark

[Flint]

I was using my Phoenix 25 with a Hacker B20 and a Jeti Rex 5. I took less than 5 steps from the model and the glitching started a few more steps and the motor started by itself. I re-routed the RX aerial outside the fus of my Zero and it seemed much better but still the range was less than satisfactory, I flew anyway against my better judgment, I got bad glitching and decided to land, on final approach the motor stared all by itself again and more glitches followed, this resulted in a rather hard landing. Bad ESC or frequency clashes? Don't know but its been replaced with a Jeti by Aircraft world so I am happy.

Cheers

[FLY ELECTRIC]

MSTONE -
Tasmike was using an AXI OUTRUNNER, whereas the motors you are getting glitch-free operation with are "conventional" type BL motors.
My 45" Tucano goes crazy with glitches using an AXI, yet if I unbolt this motor and bolt in the MEGA 22/30/3, it is completely glitch-free. The only other change is moving the flight battery 1" further back to balance the slightly heavier motor which I don't see as significant!
There is no doubt in MY mind that in my own case and probably Tasmike's also, that the AXI must be sending off these spurious spikes, and thus causing these glitches, or why would the MEGA perform faultlessly!
If Castle Creations can arrest the AXI "noise" problem and produce an ESC that gives a glitch-free set-up for this motor then I have every respect for their perseverence and product attention!
Nige.

[Shawn Palmer]

This is interesting.

It's a bit of a tall order to ask the ESC manufacturer to make up for a motor's shortcomings - but hey, we've done it before!

I'll make sure to have Patrick include an AXI in the ongoing spectrum analyser testing if he already hasn't. I'm also curious to know whether the new software that runs them well has any effect on the RF output - that would tend to explain why the Jeti's don't seem to be showing problems.

Shawn

[B717 Furloughee]

Originally posted by Shawn Palmer
It's a bit of a tall order to ask the ESC manufacturer to make up for a motor's shortcomings - but hey, we've done it before!
Castle Creations to the rescue again! :) Where would this hobby be without a few good companies that really care?!? :D

[Neil Stainton]

> It's a bit of a tall order to ask the ESC manufacturer to make up for a motor's shortcomings

I don't think it is the motor that is causing the interference, it is the controller. The difference between conventional and out-runner motors is that outrunners have many more poles. This means that the controller has to commute the the motor much more often (more times per revolution) and is working harder. It also means that the motor coils are being switched off and on more often.

Because the controller is having to commute the motor more often per revolution it has less time to calculate optimum timing, or sense the zero crossing of the unpowered coil. Thus a controller that is OK at 20K RPM on a conventional motor may be failing at 10K RPM on an outrunner. That isn't the motor's fault.

BTW I did send an email to CC asking for your input to the problems being discussed on the 45" Tucano thread.

Neil.

[Shawn Palmer]

Niel,

I was speaking more along the lines of RF generated by the motor, not necessarily the ability of the controller to run the motor - it IS our responsibility to maintain "universality" when it comes to running them - not so much to squelch radio noise, if that turns out to be the case.

Patrick will weigh in on the Tucano thread when he has some spare time to do so - OR - if you could give me a condensed version of salient questions, I'll be more than happy to run them by him when I can corner him around the office sometime.

Shawn

[B717 Furloughee]

Hi Shawn,
Have the Phoenix ESC updates begun shipping yet?

[Shawn Palmer]

Yes, we are shipping again!
Shawn

[B717 Furloughee]

Shawn,
That's great news! Is there any way to find out if my P-45 update has been shipped or when it will?
Thanks

[Shawn Palmer]

PM me your first and last name and I'll look you up.
Shawn

[rclark]

What is the best way to setup a brand new CC P-25 with an AXI2808/24 ?

The reason I ask is I do not have a smooth startup at all. Just jerks around for a few seconds before smoothing out -- did it every time. I was just hooking it all up last night and was holding the motor in my hand (no prop installed ) to make sure the motor turns the right direction before installing in plane. Does 'lots' of searching before smoothing out :( .....


BTW my CC P-45 goes in for its software update Monday. Boxed and ready to go...

[Shawn Palmer]

for best starts:

1) explore the soft start menu options first - they have the most to do with individual motor being smooth. If one is better than the others, then go to two. If they're all the same, set it for option 2, and go to 2.

2) explore the electronic timing advance. The controller automatically "knows" it's an outrunner, and sets a range for the proper advance for the motor, so it's not necessary to automatically set it to high advance. Try all three options, and one should get you accurate starts.

If after the above, it is still not starting correctly, it may need a software update, or could possibly have a hardware issue. In that case - let me know directly.

Also - a brushless motor has a finite amount of current it needs in order to start. if you just barely give it one or two "clicks" of throttle, it's normal for it to jerk around and never start if there's not enough power to "crank it over". You can also think of it this way - you can feel the resistance of an outrunner by slowly turning the prop, and feeling the resistance, then snapping into the next magnetic "valley", then resistance "uphill", and snap down and so on. That is what the controller is trying to overcome when starting the motor, and why it needs a certain amount of power to do it.

Shawn

[Larry3215]

Lots of good info in here!

Larry

[BEC]

Holding it in your hand - essentially a REALLY soft mount - doesn't help it get an accurate reading on back EMF either and makes starting rougher.

I haven't yet run any AXI 28xx motors with Phoenixes (that I recall) but the P-10 (both forms) and the 25 (current software) start and run the AXI 22xxs quickly and smoothly every time.

[rclark]

BEC, you have indeed hit on the problem :) . Needed a 'hard' mount. I installed the motor in the plane and 'what do you know' .... Nice smooth start (no load) . Haven't put a prop on it to check it under load; but I now get 'smooth' startup.....

Also disabled the prop brake. Maybe I am the minority, but so far I've disabled the brake on all my controllers. Just thinking that the default should be brake disabled :) -- not that it is hard to reprogram but....

[fwilly]

I have recently started using a 2808/24 with a new phoenix 25 and it ran without changing anything. I think the new software will run just about any outrunner out there. I have a micro 10 running a homade outrunner and another running a razor. I think it even starts the razor better than the old software.

[B717 Furloughee]

Originally posted by rclark
Also disabled the prop brake. Maybe I am the minority, but so far I've disabled the brake on all my controllers. Just thinking that the default should be brake disabled -- not that it is hard to reprogram but....
I do the same as well.

[rclark]

FYI, now using a CC-25 with my older AXI2808/20 in my acro cub (was using the P45 that had problems ). Works flawlessly now :) .

BTW, put a 9x4.5E prop on the AXI2808/24 running 9 KAN cells and it still works great so problem looks solved there....

The P45 is back from getting new brains (Thanks CC :) ) -- and is now attached to an AXI2814/12 . Haven't run it up yet as I don't have a plane (hard mount) to put it in -- yet :o . Planning on the HOB .20 P-51 for this motor when I get started on it.....

BTW trying out the Astro connectors with both of the above motors. Work great -- just a tad big and heavy at 3/8oz but that's no big deal with these bigger planes.... Smaller planes I'd either op for different connector or attach direct....