A Whole New Can of Worms...

[Beavis]

Below is a news piece I saw today. Do I smell more glow x electric debate? Better yet, is there a hybrid glow/electric motor on the horizon? May the fireworks begin...

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NEC Unveils Methanol-Fueled Laptop

Jun 30, 7:07 PM (ET)


TOKYO (AP) - Japanese computer giant NEC Corp. (NIPNY) Monday revealed a prototype of a laptop computer that runs on a methanol fuel cell instead of a rechargeable battery, and said it will start selling it next year.

A number of other companies are developing similar fuel cells, which promise to power electronics ten times longer than the lithium-ion batteries currently in use.

Also, users will be able to keep operating their computers by replacing the fuel cartridge or refilling with methanol fuel, instead of recharging the battery.

NEC initially plans to introduce a computer with a fuel-cell system able to run for five consecutive hours on a single cartridge of methanol fuel, but also plans to make a PC within two years that can run continuously for as long as 40 hours.

Fuel cells produce electricity without generating pollutants, through an electrochemical reaction that uses oxygen and hydrogen.

Japanese companies are shaping up to be pioneers in fuel-cell technology. NEC rival Toshiba Corp. said in March it developed the world's first prototype of a methanol-type fuel cell system to run notebook PCs. It also plans to commercialize its product in 2004.

Among other leading Japanese micro fuel cell developers are Sony Corp. (SNE), Casio Computer Co. and Hitachi Ltd
NEC Unveils Methanol-Fueled Laptop

[Gary Warner]

5 will get you 10, that they will find a way of charging $50 for 10 ounces of methanol, like the $189 that Toshiba charges for my laptop battery.

[Karl B²]

Hey Beavis (huh-huh huh-huh-huh :) )

Are you so financially invested in this technology that posting to multiple boards will make a difference?

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Because the fuel is volatile, I predict that the confiscated item baskets at the airport will soon be full of methanol refill canisters and fuel cell batteries. They will compliment nicely with the finger nail files, scissors, pocket knives, and multi-use pliers. ;)

RC-CAM

[AndyOne]

Any fuel-cell that uses a carbon based fuel like methanol (CH4OH) will produce carbon polution QED.

Andy.

[vintage1]

Not necessarily, if by pollution you mean CO2.

Its quite possible that it ends up as methane instead :)

Anyay, fuel cells have been around a long time. They aren't yet that efficient.

I also know of a company working on electroluminescent display materials, that reckons it wioll potentially have materials that will have a huge power to weight advantage over silicon photocells to generate photoelectricity.

However they aren't pursuing that at present - not much money in it.

[Ollie]

As I understand it the methane powered fuel cell has a catylyst that dissociates the methane into carbon and hydrogen. The hydrogen reacts with the oxygen in the air to produce water and electricity. The carbon reacts with the oxygen in the air to produce carbon dioxide. This technology is being developed to power cell phones, lap top computers and other portable electronic devices. It is attractive because more energy per pound can be stored chemically for fuel cells than with any known battery technology. Hopefully we will benefit when this technology goes into mass production.

[AndyOne]

Vintage1

My point is that the carbon can't stay inside the fuel cell so it must come out in some form or other - Pollution.
Both CO2 and Methane have been described as greenhouse gasses.

Andy

[vintage1]

Actually, one of the reasons to consider methabnol 'green' is because iot cxan be made from biomass. So the carbon in it just gets turned back to plants eventually ready for the next round :)

The point about 'fossil fuel' is that it adds to total free carbon in the system.

Apart from that, plants soak up lots of the stuff every day.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by AndyOne
My point is that the carbon can't stay inside the fuel cell so it must come out in some form or other - Pollution.
Both CO2 and Methane have been described as greenhouse gasses.

You better stop breathing and farting then or we'll have to cite you for being a polluter.

Andy

[AndyOne]

Andy,

You might laugh but bovine flatulence is taken seriously as a source of greenhouse gasses.

Carbon which would otherwise be bound up as a solid in the pasture is liberated in large quantities by domestic cattle.

Oh are we getting too far off-topic?

Andy.

[gouch]

Apart from that, plants soak up lots of the stuff every day.

Not if we keep cutting them down:rolleyes:

Plants only absorb C02 during the day. I'm lead to believe they
release C02 at night. (anyone confirm this?)

It would be interesting to see how much pollution is created from manufacturing the ni/mh , lithium etc, batteries in the first place.
I read an article a while back on the so called pollution free solar cell. A given cell NEEDED to produce electricity for a huge amount of time, just to make up for the nastiness that went into making it in the first place!

Maybe the concentration should be on reducing the power required to run electronics in the first place, thus reducing the amount of power required. Easier said than done i'm sure.

Cheers
Paul

[Ollie]

Paul,

Cattle are one of the biggest sources of atmospheric gasses containing carbon. What do you propose to do about them? Make everone in the world a vegitarian by slaughtering all the cattle?

The carbon cycle involves CO2 dissolved in ocean water. This is a huge sink for carbon because the water in the oceans depths stays at its densest at a temperature of 4 degrees C.

Did you know that the north eastern states were denuded of trees 200 to 300 years ago? Now it is naturally reforrested. Almost all the carbon aspired by trees goes into wood and is removed from the atmosphere until the wood rots.

Did you know that a depolimerazation process is commercially profitable and holds the promise of recycling virtually all carbon waste products into oil and other useful carbon compounds? It will take everything from human waste to meat waste from packing plants to plastics to wood products and turn them into industrial fuels and raw materials while providing the energy to run the process.

In my opinion environmental extremists will be proven wrong in the end.

I apologise for the off topic rant but, Paul needs to hear it.

[kapos45]

Its already happening. :cool:

http://www.discover.com/may_03/featoil.html

Ollie quote:
>>>> Did you know that a depolimerazation process is commercially profitable and holds the promise of recycling virtually all carbon waste products into oil and other useful carbon compounds? It will take everything from human waste to meat waste from packing plants to plastics to wood products and turn them into industrial fuels and raw materials while providing the energy to run the process.>>>

[gouch]

Ollie, there's MUCH i don't know. :D

What i was refering to was the process behind the so called clean fuels. It's no good saying that the solar cell for example is
free energy (like they do) when the process to make it is very polluting in the first place.
This is not to say solar cells or rechargable batteries are bad, but to pump a charge into a cell at home i'm burning more coal/oil etc to make the electricity to charge it.

I was not bagging the whole C02 process nor condoning it. I was trying to find out whether plants actually release CO2 after dark like i'm lead to believe. Still no answer to that one!

I also realize the amount of what we call pollutants being pumped into the atmosphere by natural process like volcanoes,
etc, and have a very interesting photo of the atmosphere taken edge on by shuttle astronauts showing the effect of MT. pinitubo (sp) dumping it's guts into the upper reaches.

I am not a extremist greenie by any stretch and I believe they can do more harm than good. I wouldn't even call myself a greenie at all! I do however like to see clean alternatives, who dosen't?

This oil that will be created by the system you mentioned will probably be burnt by less than efficient home oil heaters, What do we get? CO, hydrocarbons, oxides of nitrogen, particulants, and many chemicals iv'e forgotten about since i learnt it when doing my apprenticeship.

If the end result is better than the rubbish that was used to create it then its a good thing, but if your only moving stuff around and ending up with the same or more different types of unwanteds in the air, then whats the point? .Apart from a financial one.

If you live in the city take a walk outside and look at the air above. That grey smog can't be good now can it?

The comment about the cows should have been refered to
Andy, who was the one concerned about them farting up the place! Give me a big rump anytime! Medium to well.

I'm off, down the road in my petrol burning mainly plastic car on the road, made from tar, to by a packet of fags and smoke up the joint! This is why I don't go well with the greenie tag, I love how they drive their combi vans up to the forest on the road built previously, to stop the building of more roads!

Ollie, I respect your knowledge, and have learnt a lot from your posts, but what did I need to hear that was based on my original post???

[Ollie]

The thermal depolimerization process has the potential to eliminate imported oil. That means eventually we can virtually stop taking oil, gas and coal out of the ground so that the rate of carbon being added to the atmosphere can be brought down drastically while cutting the cost of a barrel of oil in half. If we seed the ocean with iron compounds to increase the production of plankton we can sink enough carbon into the ocean depths to return to levels of carbon gasses in the atmosphere that predate the industrial revolution. Technology will be the solution rather than the problem.

[gouch]

Then i'd say it's a good thing:) and the world could stop fighting over oil!!!;)
I can see it now, the heads of the world; "We must invade country X, they have heaps of rubbish!"

Cheers
Paul

Does anybody know if plants release C02 at night????
(not that i really care anymore!)

[steve lewin]

I think it's time to get back to modeling if you don't mind guys.

Steve

[Spaaro]

Gouch,

Yes, plants release CO2 at night, or rather "breathe" it out as a wastegas due to using the same electrochemical energy exchange process we use while breathing. Dark phase hydrolization of glucose, I think(long time since college cell bio) for plants.

W/out light, the sunlight driven chlorophyll process is off line and electron exchange at the cellular level occurs by 'burning' or catalyzing stored sugars & starches. Our bodies do the same thing, except iron rich hemoglobin in your blood transports the O2 you breath into your cells so they can "burn" blood sugars to extract energy for living.

Hope I didn't get anything wrong or complicate a rather complicated biochemical process

:p

[steve lewin]

Some people just can't take a hint ;). I would have moved this to Off Topic but Beavis doesn't have enough posts to start a thread in there so I'll just have to close it.

Steve