Top R/C Gun AWS Combat System Project

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Apr-21-2008 Update:
The fully assembled version is still available. I have through-hole parts kits too.

Sep-01-2007 Update:
The fully assembled version and the through-hole parts kit is still available. However, I no longer offer the custom PCB; I have converted to a SMD PCB design and I just don't have the free time to create a new parts kit and assy docs for it.

Sep-01-2004 Update:
Details to the Plug-n-Play (fully assembled & tested board): Click me For Plug-n-Play board offer. (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2578389&postcount=159)
Installation Instructions: Click Me to download Plug-n-Play instructions. (http://www.rc-cam.com/imageaws/instructions.pdf)

July-01-2003 Update:
Details to the low cost Parts Kit can be found here: Click Me for Top RC-Gun AWS parts Kit details! (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1093960#post1093960)


************************************************** *******

Now back to the original June-30-2003 Post:

The Top RC-Gun combat project details were posted last week. This is a DIY combat system based on the HobbyZone Sonic Combat Module. Details on how to connect it to a standard R/C system begin here: RC-CAM's Top RC-Gun Project (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129195)

But I really felt this design would be much better if a microcontroller was used. I spent a couple of days with a 8-pin PIC and the results were well worth it. It works great and I am very pleased with the results.

The new design is easier/simpler to build. It is possible to assemble it using one 8-pin IC (PIC chip), one .1uF cap, and a single servo cable. Really. The posted schematic shows it in the recommended form, but you can Muntz it if you like. Just review the notes on the schematic to see what is not absolutely necessary.

The new design may be simpler, but it has more features. It supports servo and ESC based throttles, has a hit counter, and even simulates a damaged engine when you get hit by weapons fire (engine is stuttered for a few seconds).

There was reluctant interest in a PIC based combat project due to the need to program the part. If necessary, I will offer a cheap parts kit (perhaps $8) for a short period to help out. If you are interested then please post a remark in this thread. If enough interest appears then I will offer the kit, much like I did with my CamMan project last December.

The link to the project's web page is:
Top RC-Gun AWS (http://www.rc-cam.com/combat2.htm)

If you have questions on the new design please post them in this thread.

[tradernfl]

Yahoo!

For starters, I'll take 4 of the kits when they become available.

You mention that hits would make the engine "stutter", is this in place of motor cutoff or idle?

Thanks for all your great projects.
BK

BTW: I'm still waiting and hoping for you to make up another Gsmart for me. ;)

[Mr.RC-CAM]

You mention that hits would make the engine "stutter", is this in place of motor cutoff or idle?Yes. I think it is an interesting way to simulate a wounded aircraft. You get 10 seconds of intermittant motor operation. Models that might sink like a rock with a lost engine can now limp along in the air with the stuttered control.

Thanks for all your great projects.You are most welcome.


I'm still waiting and hoping for you to make up another Gsmart for me.There was an eZoner that had a used one for sale. If you are interested then PM me with your email address and I will forward it to him.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

i would be interested in purchasing a set (2).

[Splash]

Good day RC-CAM

I am very interested in your system. I have been following the combat system threds. What can I do to help test or purchase or what ever the case is at this point.

I would be interested in several kits as well.

Please email me with anything I can do to help make this happen

splash@e-flightline.com

[Timeetyo]

If you did make the kits how much work would need to be done to get them working? If they'd come programmed and with minimal easy soldering I'd definately be interested in a few (2-4?). Keep us posted.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

If you did make the kits how much work would need to be done to get them working?Just visit the project page to see the details (link was given above). There are very few parts to solder, but it does require experience with building electronic devices. You will need to be able to follow the schematic to build it.

If I offer a kit the PIC would be programmed for you.

Looks like there is some interest -- let's see if more folks chime in.

RC-CAM

[sheepy]

I am interested. I would want 2. Thanks for working on something like this.

[Basketcase]

I am very interested, but am afraid that I lack experience building electronic devices (that work). I know there is no way I'd ever get the non-pic version to work with all those wires. This one may be simple enough for me to attempt.

At any rate I'll take two or three of the kits when they are ready. With luck I'll get someone else to assemble them. :)

Thanks for doing all the work RC-CAM.

BC

[sheerLuck]

I'll take two, at least. Thanks for designing & documenting this !!

Larry

[Flying Taco]

Count me in for two!

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Looks like ample interest. I don't mind supplying a parts kit to those that want one. Here are the details:

Top RC-Gun AWS Parts Kit (items in green)
Includes programmed PIC chip, all resistors (4 pcs), capacitor, and LED. Price is $7.50

Optional Socket Kit (items in blue)
Includes soldertail 8-Pin socket, 3-Pin Header (J3) and 4-Pin Polarized Connector (J4). Price is $1.50 for all three parts.

Shipping Details
Flat rate shipping is $3 for USA orders or $4 if outside USA. Free shipping if you order 6 or more parts kits with PCB.

Example: If you want 2 pcs of the AWS parts kit, 2 pcs of the optional socket set, and live in the USA, the total due would be $21 USD.

Payment is by PayPal or US postal money order. For my PayPal account info please PM me (do not use email for this).

I ship via USPS and most often it will go out within a day or so of payment. Once the orders slow down I will retire the offer, so please act now if you want a kit.

The other items that are needed are the Sonic Module, some perfboard, and one or two male servo cables (see text). You will also need some small gauge wire for you handwired work.

Lastly, please do not email or PM me for personal help with the project. Post your questions on this thread.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

I have placed my order for 2.

I have read all of the related threads. I am unsure of what connects to the 3 pin header (J3)? Is this used when you are using the throttle for the trigger mechanism?

[Mr.RC-CAM]

I am unsure of what connects to the 3 pin header (J3)?Here is where everything goes:

* J1 connects to the dedicated weapons firing channel (if used). You would install a servo cable here. This is not needed if you want to use the throttle to fire the Sonic Cannon.
* J2 connects to the Rx's throttle channel. You would install a servo cable here.
* J3 connects to the actual throttle servo or ESC cable. You would install a female servo connector here or use the 3-pin header supplied in the optional socket kit.
* J4 connects to the Sonic Module. You can hardwire it or use the 4-pin header supplied in the optional socket kit.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

I have compared the schematics from the first version of the combat module and the AWS. The ESC & RX leads (J1,J2,J3)show the middle pin (2) as the +4.8v in the first version. The AWS has the ground on the middle pin. Can these be interchanged?

Is there any chance we could see a picture of the under side of the module, like the one you showed on the first version?

[Mr.RC-CAM]

The AWS has the ground on the middle pin. Can these be interchanged?Oops. You found a drawing error. A corrected AWS schematic has been posted. Thanks for pointing it out.

Is there any chance we could see a picture of the under side of the module, like the one you showed on the first version?My layout was just for my engineering efforts, so it is a bit ugly and fragile. I suggest you strain relief the cables by passing them through a hole or two. With little effort anything you do would be better than mine. See photo below.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

Thank you for the detailed photo. I am not real familiar with this stuff. Your photo points out a few short cuts which I had not seen. ie. servo plug wires with like colors joined. I was going to solder another wire between them.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Your photo points out a few short cuts which I had not seen. ie. servo plug wires with like colors joined.If you looks closely you will see that the two common pins of J1, J2, and J3 are all joined together at the exact same place. In other words, the J1 and J2 cables' two power pins are soldered directly to the J3 header.

That minimizes the voltage drop on these "high" current paths (pins 2 and 3 shoulder the full BEC/Rx power). You do not need to do it this way, but it is simple and effective. Everyone has their own construction style, so there is no need to copy exactly what you see here.

I designed a tiny double-sided PCB for the AWS project, but the low volumes make them cost prohibitive ($3 each @ 500 pcs, but a whopping 15$ each at 20 pcs). Too bad, a nice PCB would really simplify building the kit!

RC-CAM

[Splash]

Im in RC-CAM,

Ill send paypal payment now. Im pretty good with soldering iron, but not so hot on EE. Im sure Ill have some questions. Ill post them here.

Are there any sucess storys yet?

Splash

[sheerLuck]

Mr. RC-CAM, do you know if your circuit could work somehow with the Aerial Drop Module which probably has the same wiring connection ? I ordered 4 of your kits, not sure what I'll do with them all...

http://www.hobbyzonesports.com/Products/Detail.aspx?ProductID=HBZ6023

Larry

[stevem1928]

Does anyone know how to hack the Sonic Module into a regular Firebird XL? This plane does not have the plug to connect the Sonic Module. My son has a Firebird XL. He can't handle much more of a plane, and I only have one TX. I would like to connect a module to his plane. I could bypass the Mr. RC-Cam module, and connect 4 wires directly from the original module to somewhere inside the Firebird. It should be easy to ID the +4.8V and Gnd. The other two, I have no clue.

[stevem1928]

I have read that there is a hidden connector on the inside of the Firebird XL for the module. I will take a peak on the inside.

[stevem1928]

OK. I have most of the components ready to go. I have a few questions which I would like cleared up before I start.

1. Is there a small piece of wire between pin 4 (J4) & pin 1 (PIC)?

2. Is there a small piece of wire between pin 1 (J4) & pin 8 (PIC)?

3. How is the PIC numbered? Is pin 1 on the PIC where the round indention is? How are they numbered from that point? Around the cirlce, or does it go left to right on top, and then left to right again on the bottom?

4. Does it matter which direction the capacitor is placed?


I think I have most of these figured out from the pictures you have included. But, I do not want to make any mistakes.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

1. Is there a small piece of wire between pin 4 (J4) & pin 1 (PIC)?Yes. But, ideally you should connect PIC U1-1 to J2-2. Directly connect J4-4 to J2-2 too.

2. Is there a small piece of wire between pin 1 (J4) & pin 8 (PIC)? Yes. But, ideally you should connect PIC U1-8 to J2-3. Directly connect J4-1 to J2-3 too.

3. How is the PIC numbered?Please see drawing below.

4. Does it matter which direction the capacitor is placed?No. But it must go directly across PIC U1's Pins 1 and 8. Solder it as close to the PIC as possible.

RC-CAM

[Mr.RC-CAM]

...do you know if your circuit could work somehow with the Aerial Drop Module which probably has the same wiring connection?I suspect that either Combat circuit (original or AWS) would work with the drop module. The HobbyZone X-port interface is sort of low tech, so that is in your favor.

Why not take the $20 gamble and try it? Please report what you find.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

I have one AWS finished with the exception of the servo plugs. I am still waiting for them from Servo City. Therefore, it is untested. I had some trouble with soldering some of the small components. Mr. R/C Cam's pictures make it look easy. He must be using a microscope to take those pictures.
I have a big mess. I do think all of the solder joints are separate from each other. Some have less than .5 mm between them. I hope nothing shorts.

I may wait awhile before building the second one, since my son has a Firebird XL. I can plug one of the SCM's directly to it.

I should have a test sometime this week.

[Splash]

Cool steve,

Let us know how it comes out. I got my two AWS components today. Ill let you know how the building goes. Thanks for the fast delivery RC-CAM

Splash

[stevem1928]

I finished one of the AWS modules. IT WORKS! I do not have much experience with small electronics. This was a challenge for me.

I only had a single servo plug laying around. So, I used it on the throttle channel. The rest of my plugs should get here later this week. Then I will be able to fire with ch. 4.

I tested it against a Firebird XL with the SCM. I should be able to do an actual test flight this weekend. It will only be against the Firebird XL. I don't know if I will have enough time to complete the second AWS this week.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Congrats! How do you like the features of the AWS PIC?

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

The first feature tricked me. It had been a while since I had read the entire document. I had forgot that you had an arming sequence. I played with it awhile before figuring out that it was armed. I thought it did not work at first. I did put a motor on the system. The stuttering motor should work nice. It should be enough to get the picture that the plane is hit, but still give enough power to prevent someone from going down. I had a worry about that since one of my fields is near a canal. If you get shot down low over the canal it could be trouble. The stuttering motor should give enough power to get out of harms way. The LED counter works nice. It seems bright indoors. It should be able to be visible in the sun.

I tried to take a picture of my module, but my digital camera just could not take a decent picture. It does not look as nice as Mr. RC-Cam's. I coverd the whole thing in clear packing tape.

I found a guy on Ebay selling the new SCM's for $17 each + $2 S&H. He has more.

[Splash]

sounds great Steve, I was working on the Spitfire tonight so I didnt get to the weapons system, but I will tomorrow. Thats great to hear.

Splash

[Mr.RC-CAM]

It sounds like you are good to go. Good luck on your aerial fight contests.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

Test flight, sort of...

I went out tonight to test the AWS system. I was not able to get a good flight in. My 9 year old son is not able to fly well by himself. It was difficult for me to watch 2 planes at once. We never got close enough to shoot, before I wised up and had him land his plane. I did some test shots on the ground. I am almost deaf now. Once the plane was hit, we had to run atleast 25' away. It seems to have a 360 degree pick-up radius. But, the range is shorter when the shooting module is not pointed at the other plane. The direct line range seems to be about 50'. When shooting 180 degrees away, the range is about 25". We had the modules mounted on the sides of the fuelages. It did affect the hits. We had to be closer to score a hit, when shooting at the side which did not have the module. We did a few tests with my plane flying by, while my son held his plane in his hand while shooting. The intermittant motor worked well. I was able to maintain altitude. The combination of the hit alarm and the on-off prop sounded almost realistic. The LED hit counter had good visibility in the sun.

I don't know if I have something set up wrong. The fireing mechanism seems to trigger after I pull the throttle all the way back, and then move it back to 1/2 throttle. I thought it fired on full throttle cut. When I get the rest of the servo plugs, I will use channel 4 to trigger the gun.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

But, the range is shorter when the shooting module is not pointed at the other plane.The sound that triggers the modules is not within audible range. It is nearly 40Khz and is somewhat directional. Shooting a sonic cannon at the side of the enemy's SCM will not offer reliable hits.

Just imagine how hard this would all be if it used lazers or bright LEDs! The shooter's aim would need to be much more precise (certainly beyond my skills).

The fireing mechanism seems to trigger after I pull the throttle all the way back, and then move it back to 1/2 throttle. I thought it fired on full throttle cut. It fires when the throttle is pushed to max. At the end of the firing (couple of seconds), you must reduce the throttle to 3/4 stick, then go to max again. Or you can rapidly joggle the throttle stick from max, to 3/4, and back, to fire short bursts. It is best to practice on the ground to get the hang of it.

On models that have "reversed" throttle the stick direction is just the opposite. But, it's not clear to me if your channel is reversed. If the actual firing occurs when you move UP (not DOWN) then it appears that it is not reversed. Instead, your throttle's ATV/EPA (End Point Adj) up/down settings need to be reduced a bit in order to move the firing towards the high stick area. Just tweak them until the firing occurs at nearly full throttle.

If any of this is a problem to correct then you will have to use a dedicated channel. However, I think you will find it more of a challenge to have to flip a switch.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

How does the AWS connect with a glow plane? I know absolutley nothing about glow. Since they do not havae an ESC, do they connect the plug which would normaly go to the RX from the RX battery?

Has anyone tested the AWS with a glow plane?

[Mr.RC-CAM]

How does the AWS connect with a glow plane? The glow engine's throttle servo would connect to where the ESC would normally go. That is the only difference.

Just like with an electric model, upon a weapons strike, the throttle servo signal is manipulated to create the stuttered (wounded bird) effect. To prevent "flame-outs," the throttle is kept from going all the way to the low end.

It should work well, but I do not have any reports of anyone that has tried it out. The only issue that I can see is that the glow engine's noise and vibration could overwhelm the ultrasonic microphones in the sonic module. A good muffler and a well placed installation should overcome those sort of issues.

RC-CAM

[Splash]

Hey guys,

I have my two AWS built and they both come on when I hook them up but when I put them in a brushless plane they do not fire shots. I have swapped them back and forth to make sure its not the boards and its not.

With Brushless do I have to use the seperate channel to fire?

Splash

[Mr.RC-CAM]

With Brushless do I have to use the seperate channel to fire? That is not necessary. The AWS does not distinguish between brushed and brushless motors.

I am not sure what you mean when you say " they both come on when I hook them up." Please elaborate on this. Also, fully describe how have you connected the system to the Rx and ESC.

Simple tests:

(1) Does the AWS system give the "I'm alive" double chirp two seconds after you apply power? If not, you have a wiring error.

(2) With the AWS connected to the Rx's throttle channel, the AWS's Aux channel disconnected, and the ESC connected to the AWS. Arm your model and test the ESC. Does the motor/ESC work correctly? If throttle is inoperative then you have a wiring error. If it works correctly, but you are unable to fire the cannon, then the Tx's throttle EPA/ATV settings are probably set too low. Put them at +/- 100% or higher.

RC-CAM

[Splash]

Sorry RC-CAM Ill give you more details.

Yes both give me two chirp when hooked up.

I did not wire in the AWS aux channel.

The ESC works but after Arming the cannon wont fire. My TX throttle are normal position and at +/- 100% I have not upped them from 100%.

The Hitec radio and the GWS receiver work just fine with both AWS's Neither work with my JR radio and TMM speed controller.

Thanks for all the help

Splash

[Mr.RC-CAM]

The Hitec radio and the GWS receiver work just fine with both AWS's Neither work with my JR radio and TMM speed controller.If the AWS can fire the cannons from the Hitec/GWS setup, but not with the JR, then it appears to be a Tx channel travel adj issue. Try increasing the Tx's T-Adj setting on the throttle channel.

Just for grins, try +/-125% and see if it comes to life. If it does, then back it down and tell me where it stops working. I would be interested at where the setting crosses the threshold.

If that does not help, then disconnect the TMM, connect a standard 4.8V battery to the Rx, and then see if the cannon will fire when you play with the throttle stick. Perhaps the TMM/motor have something evil going on in them...

BTW, what JR Tx do you have?

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

I am using a brushless set up (razor 400 & Phoenix 25). It works fine.

I had some trouble getting it to fire properly when just using the throttle as the fire command. I have no problem when using the aux. fire command on the rudder channel.

[Splash]

Ill increase the throttle and report back later tonight......I didnt wire the aux fire so I hope I can get the throttle to work ok.

Im using JR 421

Splash

[Splash]

RC-CAM : Good news

I did what you asked and went to 125% on throttle and it shot just fine. I got all the way down to 103% and it I lost it. So Im leaving it at 105% just for good measure. That wont hurt anything else will it?

Thanks for the help, now I just need someone to dog fight. I think Ill place one of the two planes on the ground and do some straffing runs.

Thanks again for the help. I think I may be ordering some more parts really soon :)

Splash.
ps. I hope to get some video to put on the companys web page. If you havent been by stop and take a look at what Im trying to provide. There are a bunch of flight vids too. www.e-flightline.com

[Splash]

One more question.....How are people mounting the "bomb" velcro?

Splash

[Mr.RC-CAM]

So Im leaving it at 105% just for good measure. That wont hurt anything else will it?It will not hurt a thing. On your Tx, I think you should set the Throttle's T-Adj (ATV) for +/-110%. You want the firing to occur one or two clicks below max throttle in order to ensure that the weapon is reliable.

I had configured the AWS firing threshold to about the 90% setting on my JR783 Tx. It looks like there is a tiny difference between your Tx and mine. Maybe I will revisit the parameters in PIC and bump them down a notch. I will think about it.

The "100%" setting on a JR computer radio is not really 100% of the standard servo throw. It is actually about 85%. In other words, you only get a 1.15mS to 1.85mS servo pulse range instead of the expected 1.mS to 2.0mS. Just to make things confusing, you must set the JR computer Tx's to 125% to obtain real life 100% throws. It is all very goofy.

I am glad the fix was so easy. All that remains is for you to try them out at the field.

RC-CAM

[Splash]

Thanks again RC-CAM

Im going to strap one system on my A-10 and the other on a "scale" tank and do some straffing run testing today I hope.

Like I said Ill try to get some video during the testing.

Splash

[npm]

I purchased the parts required to make the original circuit adapting the shooter as listed in the article. When I took the circuit board out of my aerobird and compared it to the circuit board in the Fighterbird they looked fairly similar except for the different servo set up. There is a spot on the Aerobird board where the 4 pin connector to plug in the shooter would be if it was a Fighterbird. I am wondering if I can just put the connector on the Aerobird board and connect the sonic shooter straight up with out the additional circuit? Does anybody know about this?

[stevem1928]

It will be best to discuss only the AWS system in this thread. I will post your answer here > http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131021

I had done some similar experimenting.

[Splash]

Hey Guys,

I didnt get any video last night, but did do some ground testing. Looks alike about 35 feet for max distance on shots. That will make it pretty hard for combat with my brushless planes, but should be just time for stock GWS warbird set up.

I hope to get some flight testing tomorrow. Ill try to get vid and stills on mounting of "bomb". I have used two small washers and wrapped a rubberband between them. I then screw down the two washers into the GWS landing gear mount. I also use a small piece of velcro under the bomb. I think it will work out great.

Splash

[stevem1928]

I finally got a hold of someone to do some flight tests. Here is what we used. One SCM connected to a Firebird XL (no AWS). The other was connected to a Soarstar with a brushless Razor 400.

We could not fire the "gun" on the Soarstar with anything more than 1/4 throttle. Sometimes it had to be completely off. I was using the 5th channel of a Flash 5. For some reason, I could not get the servo plug into the 4th channel. The servo lead on the AWS is a little out of shape. If I was thinking last night, I would have tried to use the only one lead to fire with the throttle channel.

Is the AWS suppose to only fire on low thottle when using the aux. lead?

Another thing I noticed is the pattern of hits. It seems like it is more of a proximity thing. It seemed that when the 2 planes got close to each other, the first to fire when in range got the hit, no matter which way he was pointing. I wonder if there would be a better way to direct the sound? Maybe some type of cone directing the sound forward?

It was hard for us to get hits. Even when we were trying to let the other come in for the kill. Some of the problem was due to the lack of control on the Firebird. It made for a good target though.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Is the AWS suppose to only fire on low thottle when using the aux. lead?When you use the throttle only method (one channel) the cannon firing occurs near the max throttle position. But, if you connect the AWS's Aux channel (two channel mode) then the throttle is totally ignored when it comes to cannon firing. Arming is disabled too. The Aux channel has control and is used to trigger the weapon.

... the first to fire when in range got the hit, no matter which way he was pointing.That is the way the Sonic modules were intended to work. It is not so much a precise aim thing, but more of a proximity deal.

If you want to make the weapons more directional then you could try adding baffles to the fore/aft ultrasonics mics. Be careful what you wish for -- it is hard enough to get a hit as it is. ;)

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

What do you think is causing the aux. channel to fire only when motor off, or near off? Someone at the field said that some radios can "slave" the 5th channle to the throttle channel for some type of retract mechanism. I don't think the Flash 5 has this. As it is, it is hard to fly, throttle down, then shoot with the aux. channel. Until I get it figured out, I will use the single channel and fire with the throttle.

What do you mean by "baffel the mics"? I was thinking of putting the SCM in something like a short paper towel cardboard tube. I know that focusing would make hits harder. But, the way it is now, the person being chased has just a good of a chance of scoring the hit when the chaser closes in.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

What do you think is causing the aux. channel to fire only when motor off, or near off? I have no idea. The AWS is totally clueless about throttle position while in the 2-channel configuration.

Perhaps you are correct -- it could be an odd throttle-to-Chnl5 mix that is turned on. You will have to investigate that. Try installing a servo on chnl 5 and watch for odd behavior as you move the throttle.

What do you mean by "baffle the mics"? I was thinking of putting the SCM in something like a short paper towel cardboard tube. That is what I had in mind. Install the baffles on the fore/aft mics.

RC-CAM

[mpbjr]

Mr. RC-Cam, I need your help. I thought I finished wiring up the AWS. I plugged in the SCB and my ESC, plugged in the aux. channel cable and throttle to the receiver, (and an extra servo to elevator channel). My ESC powered on, and the servo worked, but the SCM did nothing and the throttle did nothing as well. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

My ESC powered on, and the servo worked, but the SCM did nothing and the throttle did nothing as well.If the ESC does not control the motor speed (dead operation) then you have a wiring error somewhere or the PIC has been damaged. So, check your wiring again. If possible, get another set of eyes to check your work.

Use a voltmeter and confirm power & ground appear on the PIC and on the correct pins of all servo cables. Once you are done checking, check again. I suspect you will find something.

If the ESC controls the motor correctly with the AWS then the PIC is working. If you cannot fire the cannon then check the Aux cable's wiring and the SCM wiring.

RC-CAM

[mpbjr]

Mr. RC-CAM,
I think I found the problem, I think it is the part named "Cap, 0.1uF Ceramic”, I believe it's a ceramic capacitor (this electronics is new to me!) I tried checking it with my voltmeter and I didn't get any signal when I placed the meter on both pins of the capacitor. Does the heat of the soldering gun easily affect these? And also, do you know if Radio Shack has an equivalent part number? Thanks again!

[Mr.RC-CAM]

I tried checking it with my voltmeter and I didn't get any signal when I placed the meter on both pins of the capacitor. Capacitors do not have continuity or DC resistance of any kind. Since it is not shorted, let's assume it is OK. Keep looking.

RC-CAM

[mpbjr]

Well, I took apart my first board and started from scratch. I did find one wiring problem that I missed the first time, I missed connecting the resistor off the LED to pin 2 on J2 connector. I've gone over all the wiring several times and I do believe I didn't miss anything this time. using my volt meter, all the connections seem ok except one which leads me to my question. When I use the meter to pin 5 on the PIC and pin 2 on the 3 pin header to the ESC, I am not getting any signal. Does the LED light have anything to do with that? When I hold the meter on just the two pins of the LED, I don't get anything either. When I plug everything in I am getting the same reaction as my last board in my previous thread. I'm starting to think that it might be the PIC chip if the LED light has nothing to do with it. Thanks for your help, I don't mean to keep bothering you but I REALLY want this to work! Thanks again!

[Mr.RC-CAM]

When I use the meter to pin 5 on the PIC and pin 2 on the 3 pin header to the ESC, I am not getting any signal. Does the LED light have anything to do with that?The LED does not behave like a resistor when you hang your meter on it. We will assume it is fine.

With your DMM set to volts (lowest scale that can read 5V), put the red lead on PIC pin 1 and the black lead on PIC pin 8. Apply power.
(1) Is the voltage pos or neg?
(2) What is the voltage? {+/- x.x VDC}

Next, leave the black lead on PIC pin 8 (gnd). Move the red lead to PIC pin 4.
(3) With the throttle stick full down, what do you read? {+/- x.xx VDC}

Move to full throttle.
(4) What do you read? {+/- x.xx VDC}

Please report the measured volts. Precision matters, so use the lowest voltage scale that does not over-range.

Is there any chance you can post high-res photos of the top and bottom sides of the assembled board. That way I can look at the wiring. There is a chance I might see what went wrong.

RC-CAM

[mpbjr]

With your DMM set to volts (lowest scale that can read 5V), put the red lead on PIC pin 1 and the black lead on PIC pin 8. Apply power.
(1) Is the voltage pos or neg?
(2) What is the voltage? {+/- x.x VDC}

Positive 1.78

Next, leave the black lead on PIC pin 8 (gnd). Move the red lead to PIC pin 4.
(3) With the throttle stick full down, what do you read? {+/- x.xx VDC}

+0.23

Move to full throttle.
(4) What do you read? {+/- x.xx VDC}

+0.40

I used some solder leads off the pins to help with my soldering. It made it easier to get the wires attached. The size of the pic is to large for me to post to the thread, I could email it to you if you would allow. Please advise. Thanks

[Mr.RC-CAM]

(2) What is the voltage? {+/- x.x VDC}
Positive 1.78There is a problem here. It should be 4.7VDC to 5.5VDC (ESC's BEC Voltage). Are you sure you wired Pins 1 and 8 correctly? Or, the J3 jack must be wired incorrectly. What colors on the ESC are connected to PIN 1 and PIN 8 of the PIC? Just follow the circuit to see what is what.

The throttle related voltages look good.

Yes, you can email the photos to me.

RC-CAM

[mpbjr]

Yes, you were correct, I forgot to connect pin 1 with the +4.8 pin! After I connected it, everything works great!!! Thanks for your help, now I just need to get my friends together so I can try it out! Thanks for all your help!!

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Looks like you are on your way!

RC-CAM

[BenJammin]

Originally posted by stevem1928
What do you think is causing the aux. channel to fire only when motor off, or near off?

Hi, just wondering if you've figured this out yet? I'm having the same issue with mine. I'm also using a Flash 5. The throttle works to fire, and if I use the gear channel the throttle has to be pulled back. I tried using the rudder channel and I couldn't get it to fire at all.

On a side note, we have used them on glow powered planes using the throttle to fire the weapon. We were using my own design of S.P.A.D. slow survivable combat planes. They seem to work great. We have them mounted on the side of the fuse between the wing and the H-Stab. I don't think this is the ideal location because the wing and the tail are kind of shielding it and I think making it harder to get a hit. I think on the side of the vertical will work a bit better. We did get 3 or 4 hits so we do know they work.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Hi, just wondering if you've figured this out yet?I do not have a Flash 5, so I cannot check this. Just keep in mind that the AWS expects to see normal servo signal behavior. Try installing a servo on the gear channel to see if it behaves normally when the switch is used. Also, experiment with the Tx's EPA/ATV settings on the gear channel.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

Benjamin,

You are having the same problem as I am. The rudder does not work as a firing mechanism. I still think it has something to do with the poor servo connection which I made. I have tried a servo on the 5th ch. It does not have any ill resposes with the throttle. I have a Flash 5 & 555 rx. I have not tried the ATV & EPA.

[BenJammin]

I have tried several different combinations on the end point adjustments with no luck. I have also tried using my Eclipse and my Skysport 6, they worked exactly the same. My brother's 6XH works the same way on his plane.

Here's what I did come up with though. Haven't tried it in the air but it does work on the ground. I hooked the system up to the rudder channel instead of the throttle. I use an extra servo for a streamer release. Push the rudder stick to the right and it fires the module. The streamer releases from the target plane and trails behind it (simulated smoke.) ;) Now I would like to come up with a more realistic idea for smoke, maybe a small bag of flour for the servo to open. The ultimate would be an actual smoke system but I'm afraid it will be too much weight for the size of the planes we're using. :D

[stevem1928]

I am not sure if I follow you. Are you saying that instead of the throttle cutting out on a hit, you have it rigged to release a streamer? Are you just connecting the plugs to different channels?

[BenJammin]

Originally posted by stevem1928
I am not sure if I follow you. Are you saying that instead of the throttle cutting out on a hit, you have it rigged to release a streamer? Are you just connecting the plugs to different channels?

Yup, that's exactly right. The AWS is plugged into the rudder channel and the streamer release servo is plugged into the AWS.

[stevem1928]

This new set up allows you to fire at full throttle now?

This would work good on my Soarstar since I have a permanent release servo mounted on the side of the plane to drop parachute etc....

[BenJammin]

Yes, the throttle is no longer connected to the system. The rudder stick controls the whole system. You do have to remember to not push the rudder stick all the way left. If you do it releases your own streamer.

[stevem1928]

Are you using right rudder to fire, or partial left?

[BenJammin]

Full RIGHT rudder fires the module.

[Brain_Washed]

Mr. Rc Cam,

I think my neighbors and I would be interested in getting set up with the combat modules.

Do you sell set ups that we can buy?

Thanks!

Shoot me a PM or email via my profile.

Duane

[stevem1928]

I have an update on the PIC version 2.

I had problems with the Hitech Flash 5. It did not allow me to fire with the Aux. ch. while the throttle was up. I have installed a new PIC and everything works just fine. I am now able to fire with the rudder stick while the throttle is in any position. I am also able to fire using the throttle stick (Aux. ch. not used).

This was an easy fix, since I had the PIC mounted with the interchangeable socket.

Has anyone been able to narrow the sonic canon blast to allow on foward firing? It seems like either player can get a hit, no matter which way the planes are pointing. I have tried to make a 1/2 cone around the side of the canon, keeping the back side closed and the front open. This did not seem to make much difference. Does the sound come out of the side of the canon where the indented circle is? Are the sound pick ups in the front and the back? If so, I would like to cover the front sound pick up to prevent the front plane from scoring a hit when being chased.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

It appears that the ultrasonic wave is emitted from the front transducer and received on the rear one. The large bottom mounted transducer (in the embossed area) is for our ears.

RC-CAM

[stevem1928]

Thanks this will help. I will make a cone around the front to limit the direction of the sound, and a cone facing backwards to limit the direction of receiving the sound. Is this a reasonable thing to do? Or, will the ultrasonic sound go throught he foam as if it were not there.

How were you able to ID where the sound was coming from? I was unable to isolate it by ear.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Is this a reasonable thing to do?It is worth a shot. Also, you could try moving the rear xdrc to the very tail of the model. Placing it in a cardboard tube (model rocket body) might help narrow the range too. Be careful though -- it won't be much fun if it takes lazer accuracy to get a weapons strike.

I was unable to isolate it by ear.The sonic cannon uses a pulsed 40Khz audible signal. Well, at least it is audible to bats. ;)

RC-CAM

[rysium]

Originally posted by BenJammin
Yes, the throttle is no longer connected to the system. The rudder stick controls the whole system. You do have to remember to not push the rudder stick all the way left. If you do it releases your own streamer.

I have finally finish my small smoke system for combat airplane. I'm still experimenting with the oil, to get the best smoke (from all I have tried the Train Smoke Oil is the best, but darn expensive).
I'm writing here this because the whole idea started here. ACM mounted on 25 size glow combat warbird (Corostang), and when hit it will smoke for a couple of seconds.
All should be fine with PIC controller because the servo is used to open the smoke valve (I use Perry pump). The only problem I see is the "engine sputter" action. It will open and close the valve (moving the servo forth and back) which will not give a good smoke. I need to have the valve open at least for 3 seconds to get steady smoke.
MR RC-CAM any planned changes for that;) I mean instead giving throttle sputter, just generate "servo full left" all the time, and when hit generate "servo full right" for a couple of seconds. Then I wouldn't need to use additional channel (like BenJammin used rudder).

See the smoking Corostang here:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1265286/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#1268054

RysiuM

[Mr.RC-CAM]

...any planned changes for that I mean instead giving throttle sputter, just generate "servo full left" all the time...?No plans at this time. However, I think you can create a cheap working solution using the original Top RC-Gun and the RC-CAM failsafe project (RCFS).

Original Top RC-Gun Project: http://www.rc-cam.com/combat.htm
RCFS R/C FailSafe: http://www.rc-cam.com/rcfs.htm

In the original combat system the outputted servo pulses would be forced steady state during a kill. If this was connected to the RCFS, it would see the loss of the pulses as a failsafe issue and would force the servo to the position set by the device's jumpers. At the end of the hit duration (8-10 secs) the servo pulses are restored and the failsafe'd servo would go back to doing its thing.

RC-CAM

[rdalcanto]

Originally posted by Mr.RC-CAM
It appears that the ultrasonic wave is emitted from the front transducer and received on the rear one. The large bottom mounted transducer (in the embossed area) is for our ears.

RC-CAM

Can we deactivate the large bottom transducer and still maintain function of the "gun" and "sensor?" I would like to be able to use these in my neighborhood and not just at the flying field.

Thanks,
Rick

[Mr.RC-CAM]

I believe that disabling the audible hit alarm would not affect operation. But, you will have to try it to see if there are any side affects to doing that.

I think it will be more difficult in firing -- you will not know when the weapon firing is active. And, the cool factor will be reduced too. Why not just put some masking tape over the embossed area to reduce the sound level to a more pleasant volume?

RC-CAM

[rysium]

Originally posted by Mr.RC-CAM
No plans at this time. However, I think you can create a cheap working solution using the original Top RC-Gun and the RC-CAM failsafe project (RCFS).RC-CAM

What about this solution. It's simple and it may work - would it?
Your original Top RC-Gun circuit modified by one capacitor and resistor. The input servo signal is 2 ms and the capacitor/resistor addjusted to get spikes .5 ms (or around).
Am I thinking right?

RysiuM

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Am I thinking right?That may do the trick. Rather than tweak for .5mS, aim for 1.0mS. Otherwise your servo will be driven to a stall position.

My only concern would be that the C and D signals would be slightly phase delayed during non-smoke operation. That might create a weird resulting waveform. You'll have to wire it up to see what happens. An O-scope will come in handy.

If you do not need to remotely turn on the smoke (combat activated only) then you might consider using a servo signal emulator circuit and hack it as necessary. For example, the RC-CAM RCST Servo Tester project can be adjusted to switch from a steady servo state to a 1mS/2mS fast pulsing servo cycle by grounding pin 4. That should create stuttered puffs of smoke when the combat module gets a strike.

RC-CAM

[rysium]

Originally posted by Mr.RC-CAM
That may do the trick. Rather than tweak for .5mS, aim for 1.0mS. Otherwise your servo will be driven to a stall position.
Right, my mistake. Servo center is 1.5ms, not 1ms.

My only concern would be that the C and D signals would be slightly phase delayed during non-smoke operation. That might create a weird resulting waveform.
Can you elaborate on that.

An O-scope will come in handy.
Unfortunately I don't have any. It's been a long time since I played with electronic circuits.

If you do not need to remotely turn on the smoke (combat activated only) then you might consider using a servo signal emulator circuit and hack it as necessary. For example, the RC-CAM RCST Servo Tester project can be adjusted to switch from a steady servo state to a 1mS/2mS fast pulsing servo cycle by grounding pin 4. That should create stuttered puffs of smoke when the combat module gets a strike.
I want to keep it simple - just because I don't have experience, knowledge and tools to play with PIC. And by the nature of simple smoke system it doesn't make "puffs" unfortuantelly. When turned on, after slight delay it creates steady smoke and when turned of it still smokes for a second (like burning off the remains of smoke oil) so that's why "On-Off-On-Off" will not work. That's why I want simple 10 seconds "On" so the smoke can start a steady run.

I will try to build such system to see how it works. If I calculated right, the 10 kR resistor and 100nF capacitor should do the trick. I have some old (very old) futaba servos that I can break in case of mishap. :D
To get a stable timing i will need 5V regulator (do I remember right, that 6V battery pack will fry Aerobird combat module?)

RysiuM

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Can you elaborate on that.I would expect that the leading edge of C will lag behind D. The affect may cause a stretching of the output. It may be a non-issue, but something to keep in mind.

If you need a VReg (recommended), it must be a Low Drop Out (LDO) type, like an LM2931 or LM2940, if you will be operating from a 6V battery.

[Mr.RC-CAM]

I tossed together the components using a CD4011AE. Works fine. Here is what I suggest:

Cap near C should be .1uF mono ceramic.
Resistor near D should be 22K.

Due to the pulse stretching issue, you will need to use your Tx's ATV/EPA to reduce the nominal servo pulse to around 1.0 to 1.3mS (tweak as required). This will yield a 2mS pulse on the output during normal operation. Upon a hit, (B goes low) this will give about 1mS pulse output.

Good luck. Be sure to follow up with a detailed report of your success.

[rysium]

Originally posted by Mr.RC-CAM
I tossed together the components using a CD4011AE. Works fine.
You are Da Man :D

Cap near C should be .1uF mono ceramic.
Resistor near D should be 22K.
t=RC would be around 2.2ms but I understand the gate switching level will cut the time to 1ms. It makes sense.

Due to the pulse stretching issue,
I sitill don't understand where is this delay comming from? By the theory it shouldn't be any delay - behind capacitor the spike should be at the signal edge before capacitor (maybe I just need more education :confused: ).

reduce the nominal servo pulse to around 1.0 to 1.3mS
That means the delay is around 0.7 - 1 ms. It is significant. Why?

Be sure to follow up with a detailed report of your success.
Sure. Now when the whole theory keeps together and the simplicity level is up to my talent:D I will do it.

Thanks Mr.RC-CAM

RysiuM

[rysium]

And one more. Could you connect the osciloscope to points A B C D E to confirm my theory?

RysiuM

[Mr.RC-CAM]

The delay is due to the charge/decay time of the R's (including the drive impedance of the signal source) & C's. The cap does not instantaneously rise or fall to the servo pulse levels. In other words, a moment after the original pulse has changed states, the C will still be discharging through the R's. In this case it results in a delayed output that is a few hundred microseconds (a product of the RC values and the gate threshold voltage).

The O-scope showed point C as a sharkfin of the servo pulse, just as you show. The other signals were as we discussed (E was stretched).

Rather than continue your smoke discussion on this AWS combat thread {I would like to maintain the original AWS discussion} please start a new topic, especially as your project advances. You can always point back to this one for reference.

EDIT: The discussion has moved to: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173116

Good luck smoking up the sky!

RC-CAM

[rdalcanto]

I received your kits yesterday and I assembled both of them. It was a little tuff at first for me to understand the schematics, but once I figured it out it was smooth sailing. They both work (except that I must have overheated one of the LEDs and that will need to be replaced - voltage before it, none after). Can't wait to actually fly with them!

You ARE the man!

Thanks,
Rick

[Patrick H]

Are there any of these kits still available??

[Mr.RC-CAM]

I can make a few more kits. Details are here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1093960#post1093960

RC-CAM

[Patrick H]

How does the throttle fire the sound? Full means fire??

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Yes, full throttle fires the sonic cannon.

RC-CAM

[rysium]

Mr.RC-CAM,

Thank you very much. The major hassle for me building that combat system would be programming PIC and collecting all parts from here and there. Thanks to Mr-RC-CAM's kit I was able to design, build and test one module in two hours. Using cheap soldering iron from Wallmart ($5 bucks!!!) with temperature ragulator (lamp dimmer) and prototype board from Radio Shack I made it :)

First major issue I had to solve was:
Please be aware that the Sonic Module will not survive if you install the cable backwards. I marked my board with red and black ink to help prevent orientation mistakes (famous last words).

To prevent from connecting ESC opposite way I decided to use part of the extension cable instead of connector supplied in the full kit. The RC plug is already protected from connecting it wrong way.
To prevent from connecting Sonic module opposite way I left a little more prototype board sticking out and it fits with the plug very nice - no way to connect the module backwards.

Next I simplified connection on board (longer and narrower than this one done by Mr.RC-CAM), so I have only four wires going acrossthe board. See the pictures below.

Anyway after checking all connections I didn't have any problems and module is working from the first try. Thank you Mr.RC-CAM. Your module is great. I'm going to build the second one. I hope GWS warbirds powerd by BL motors will do very nice combat.

Pictures:
1. Prototype board from the top
2. Prototype board from the bottom
3. Test how Sonic module plug will fit
4. Board connections design (As you see no computer involved - just paper, pencil and eraser)
5. The module bottom view (next time I will put capacitor on the other side)
6. The module top view. You can see the green and red wire for cross-section connections.
7. Finished module. It waights 10g (0.3oz) as pictured (including shrink-wrap and all connectors)
8. Entire outfit.

RysiuM

[rysium]

Next pictures

[rysium]

The last one

RysiuM

[Mr.RC-CAM]

Very nice work. Please post a follow up on your combat experience, especially with your fast e-models (those custom CD ROM motors of yours look real sweet).

RC-CAM

[rysium]

Very nice work. Please post a follow up on your combat experience, especially with your fast e-models (those custom CD ROM motors of yours look real sweet).


I will, but first I need to buy another plane (to fight with my ZERO). I hope RC Country can get me the "Glider version" (without motor and unpainted for less then 30 bucks) because I will customize the powerplant anyway.

In the meantime I have finished the other module and I have tried to "shoot" my 3D in the room. The hell of the noise :) I noticed that on one module the LED didn't work (bad LED) but as I have over 60 demolished CD-ROMs, finding a small green LED was not a problem. These modules are SWEET :D

I will bring them tommorow on the MASM flying field, maybe guys with Slow Sticks will show up and try some 'serious fight". I can't try it on my Corostang as there is no maching aircraft around. Just wait for my GWS warbirds combat report.

Thanks again,
RysiuM