can Phoenix 25 be programmed for 30 degrees?

[tjcooper]

This is posted on the ParkFlyers forum but I was asked to re-direct it here:

Castle,
I am considering buying the Czech brushless outrunner PJS-550R unit. All of the threads say that a 30 degree timing are the optimum for outrunner 14 pole motors. The Phoenix 25 would be an excellent choice but only goes to 18 degrees. Is there a way to program (or get an update) that would allow 30 degrees to get optimum response for the outrunners?

It seems like my only other choice is Hacker/Jeti and I would much perfer to have a brand name company that stands behind its products.
Ted

:cool:

[Patrick del Castillo]

TJ -

The max advance that the Phoenix line of controllers will allow is around 40 degrees or so in high advance mode. The instructions only list the "typical" advances.

The controller will give more advance to motors that want it. :)

Thanx!

Patrick

[erashby]

Originally posted by Patrick del Castillo
TJ -

The max advance that the Phoenix line of controllers will allow is around 40 degrees or so in high advance mode. The instructions only list the "typical" advances.

The controller will give more advance to motors that want it. :)

Thanx!

Patrick

So, this means that when the motor is set to Option 1 which is 12-15 degrees, it will sense the inductance and advance up to 40 degrees? Is that correct? Is it the same with the Phoenix 10?

[Patrick del Castillo]

Yes, the controller measures the motor inductance and adjusts accordingly. For example, I was running a Hacker motor on the bench yesterday, and measured approx. 4 degrees of advance in "standard" timing mode. Switching to an Aveox motor (on the same controller) yielded about 11 degrees of advance. On an AXI 41 series, the advance was about 18 degrees, still in "standard" timing mode.

Patrick

[Looooeeee!]

Pat, is this true of the first run of Phoenix 10 controllers?

I've got quite a collection of homemade outrunner BL motors now, they all run fairly well on my "antique" Ph 10

[GBR2]

I think your manual should make clear this automatic advance feature that has obviously been there. The instructions make it seem that the controller is fixed to within a certain range. For example the Phoenix 10 manual lists High Advance timing as 12 -15°, which seems to imply it is simply fixed there rather than having the ability to automatically adjust itself for the best timing.

[Shawn Palmer]

GBR2 -

We agree, changes will soon be underway!

Shawn

[tjcooper]

Shawn,
Just got my Phoenix 25 this weekend for a PJS550 E (a brand new model). I need some clarification. In the default mode, will the CC do the correct advance for this outrunner or MUST I PROGRAM it to high advance and then it will match what I need?

How do I know when I have the right advance? Do I have to put a tach and a wattmeter on the unit and find a max tradeoff between RPM and watts? How is one supposed to setup a brushless (this also includes prop pitch and diameter) so that you are getting the most out of it for a sport/acrobatic plane? Any hints or points to other threads would be greatly appreciated.
Ted

[Shawn Palmer]

In layman's terms (ie: my own understanding): the controller "knows" what advance to give it, and automatically does. the setings are realative, not absolute. High advance for a hacker is like 8deg, and for an outrunner could be 38deg. There is no need to start at high advance unless you just want every last bit of power at the expense of runtime.

As far as general optimizing set-up: Look at the data sheets for the motor. It will tell you the most efficient amp range, and then play w/cell counts and props in motocalc to find out if you have what you want to have in a motor. Just playing w/motocalc's "auto recomend" function will teach you LOTS about which motors would be best for your specific airframe and flying style.

Shawn

[farnboro flyer]

I have just bought my first CC 25 brushless esc.......I intend to mate it to one of the new MPJ 25/25/26 motor gear combos.
What is the best timing mode?

Thanks
Ian

[opualuan]

so the timing settings sets your range, and the esc is free to move about inside this range?

is this different with older FW?

[Shawn Palmer]

Omar - been that way always.

Farnboro - default is most likely best there.

Shawn

[tjcooper]

Shawn,
the info on this thread has been very helpful. I fly my box fuse with crazy max wing with PJS 550 E with 3 Li-Poly in 3S2P and it is wonderful. It can hover on a good day. I use all defaults now.

QUESTION: under what circumstances would I want to set the Phoenix 25 to "hard advance"? I am getting about 5.1 amp draw at WOT now and getting something approaching 13 oz of thrust. Would I see 10% more thrust if I went to "hard advance" for the outrunner motor? Any comments are welcome.
Ted

[Shawn Palmer]

Ted,

The old software version can sometimes loose sync w/the motor at high advance levels - you won't hurt anything if you try it out, and it's very apparent when it doesn't work. If it's good to go, the additional thrust depends on the motor/batt combo - I haven't had a chance to play w/the PJS motors enough to know if you'll get 10% or not - but my gut tells me about 5% should be seen fairly easily on high advance.

Shawn

[opualuan]

talking of advance, is there a more comprehensive list of what advance setting is ideal for motors out there? I'm running a miniAC extreme geared motor and can't find a recommendation from model motors, and I don't think my phoenix instructions mentioned it...

also, since the advance is 'floating' inside its set limits, I guess setting a motor to high advance could cause it to increase timing to the motor as the prop unloads in flight? how often is the inductance sampled and adjusted?

[Shawn Palmer]

Omar,

Inductance is a constant - so it needs to be only sampled once (at start-up).

But as it goes in flight - as you may be presuming, yes the advance will go up as rpm goes up, but within the curve of the initial measured inductance of the motor.

As far as advance settings for individual motors go - we've got the software set up to "know" what the motor it's hooked up to's inductance is, and therefore what range of advance is ideal for that motor.

Again, the actual "degrees of advance" are unimportant - each type of motor will be running at slightly advanced at the default level - be that 5 degrees for some motors or 35 degrees for others, and more advanced at the high level - be it 8 degrees or 45. The controller is doing all the work for you!

Shawn

[opualuan]

er. thought I had a handle on it. now i'm not so sure. how do i know if the motor I'm using on default should be on high, so it can achieve the 45 degrees it wants?

[Jeffrey]

Shawn,

I now understand the situation with the timing---but what about the Switching Rate?

If you are only giving the controller a 'hint' of what the timing should be when in program mode, (and then the controller adjusts itself to what the proper setting should be anyway) would the same be true for the Switching Rate?

If I set the controller for say 22KHz, will the controller sense that the motor requires 11 KHz and adjust itself to that setting on start-up?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Jeffrey

[Shawn Palmer]

Jeffrey,

No, switching rate is entirely a "dead set" feature - if it's on 44KHz - it's on 44KHz period.

Definition: quite litterally how fast the FET's are being turned on and off, with the big picture goal of a percentage of total battery voltage as an average being delivered to the motor.

Here's the trade-off with switching rate:
the higher the switching rate, the more efficient the motor is, at partial throttle settings IF the motor is such a type to benefit from a higher rate.
Lets take 41Khz as the example - Hackers, Aveox, and Astro to some degree will actually be benefitted in efficiency by using 41KHz. Now, the motor sees a more accurate and stable average voltage - leading to greater efficiency and lower heat generated because of less power lost as heat. (as compared to the same sytem at the default of 11KHz)

BUT - The FET's are being switched on and off 4 times faster than before, raising their switching losses (as heat) and potentially raising the controller temperature. (somewhat balanced by less resistance from the motor due to less heat losses, and the controller potentially running cooler because of it )

SO - one of my first questions to Patrick was probably the same as you're thinking right now - "Does the cooler running (thus less resistance) motor balance out the hotter running controller for an overall better performing (efficient) system?"
There's no solid answer to that, unless you are considering a specific motor/current/voltage/throttle setting. The general rule of thumb goes: if the controller gets too hot/shuts down, jump down to the next lower switching rate - as it's not benefitting that particular system enough to use it. In some systems EVERYTHING may run cooler (more efficiently), and in others - it may run everything a touch warmer.

The above motors are common examples of low/very low inductance motors that MAY benefit (within the particular system) from 41Khz.

Med/low inductance motors would be Kontrinic and Mega, that sometimes would benefit from the above, and most likely do best w/the 22KHz option.

High/Med inductance motors would be all outrunners, and MPJet motors. The 11KHz option is most likely best, but some may benefit from a higher option.

Shawn

[opualuan]

... and the miniac's?

a maintained list of these suggestions for the different types of motors out there would be helpful...

[Shawn Palmer]

Omar - mini AC's seem to fall in between high and medium inductance, like the MP Jets.

I'll most likely be working on an FAQ for the website soon - I've been holding off 'till the new software - and also absorbing as much as possible from Patrick to have the tech knowledge and terminology to do so.

I learn something new every day that NOONE but Patrick it seems, knows the controllers do, or don't do - It'll be "helpful" is an understatement!

Shawn

[derway]

Hey Folks.

After reading the threads here, about high advance, and frequency, I still have a question...

Shawn, you say that low inductance motors will run better, more efficiently, etc, at 44 kh switching. And the only trade off is the extra heat in the controller...

But then you say that some motors work better at lower switching freqs. Why is that? Will they actually perform more poorly at the high PWM freq? Or is there just no advantage?

Is the PJS 800, or 1000 considered low inductance? Will they prefer the highest switch freq? Or medium??

I believe I understand that the motor should work fine, even at normal advance, because that setting is always relative to the motor, and not an absolute range.

Thanks!
Don

[Shawn Palmer]

derway,

I'm sorry If I've been confusing, and maybe this will be even moreso.....

Any motor will run more efficiently w/a higher PWM freq. BUT, on a more than two pole motor - the trade-off of a more efficient motor to a higher temp controller(less efficient) may not be the best for the SYSTEM as a whole.

The PJS's have gone through a LOT of design changes recently, and often - the LATEST ones we got for testing were actually two pole motors, and would benefit the system running a higher rate.
(please do not ask me which you have or how to tell the diff - I won't know!)

Shawn

[derway]

So, if I'm running a phoenix 35, averaging around 10-12 amps, and 25 max, and the controller is right out in the wind, then the controller temp will never be a problem, and I should be running at 41 kHz, just in case it might do some good...

Right?

Thanks Shawn..

Don

[Shawn Palmer]

Well, that's a judgement call - if it's a brand new PJS, most likely it will do some good as you describe, yes.

Shawn

[tjcooper]

Shawn,
Just got another PJS550E and a CC Phoenix 10 controller with the new software.
1) can you tell me what new features the new software in the Phoenix 10 has...especially with respect to advanced timing and things that might affect the PJS550E running 3S1P Li-poly packs

2) If I am hovering and starting to draw 12-15 amps from a Li-poly pack on the Phoenix, what happens when the ESC says it is getting over-current? Does it shut off hard or just slow down until it is in the right heat / amperage range?

3) when the Phoenix 10 and 25 ESC startup, they make their confirmation sounds after power up test. Do any of those sounds tell you (in some sort of code) what is the current timing setting and the current LVT setting? It would be nice to know what I was set at without having to go through all the programming steps. The Kontronix unit does this nicely.

4) when the ESC takes a Rx hit and looses signal, it shuts down the motor. What does it do to the servo power? Does that stay up? How long does it take with the recovery of Rx signal before it turns the motor back on? (4 seconds???) and do I have to do
full throttle down then throttle up? or can I just leave it in position and try to float around until the re-arming time is used up?

Much thanks for your help.
Ted Cooper

[Shawn Palmer]

Ted,

1) new software reliably runs all outrunner motors on the market (and not yet on the market) inductance sensing and timing range remain the same automatic features as before.

2) overcurrent is a hard shutdown.

3) No, no code at this time.

4) servo power stays on - esc just shuts the motor off until a valid pulse string comes back. Sometimes you'll need to throttle down to "reset" if the signal is REALLY bad.

Shawn

[erashby]

Originally posted by Shawn Palmer
Ted,

1) new software reliably runs all outrunner motors on the market (and not yet on the market) inductance sensing and timing range remain the same automatic features as before....
Shawn

Shawn, I sent my Phoenix 25 in for the software upgrade in June, and also got a new Phoenix 10 (ordered from CC) at that time.

Does this mean that both of my Phoenix ESCs have the latest software?

They both still have trouble running my PJS 300 on 3S1P lipo batteries on the most advanced timing setting. I don't understand, if the PJS 300 wants a timing advance of 30 degrees and the most advance range is up to 18 degrees, why does the PJS 300 not work above half throttle with the most advanced timing setting?

Why does it run best at the lowest advanced timing setting? I'm afraid that the ESC is not giving me the most from this motor.

I love my Phoenix ESCs, especially with the low voltage cutoffs that make them the best for Lipo batteries. Now, if I could just get the advanced timing settings right for the outrunner (PJS) motors.:confused:

[Shawn Palmer]

This upgrade was just released a few weeks ago, so no, you do not have the new software.

1) there is virtually no limit to the ammount of advance the controller can supply - if the motor "wants" 50deg - then that's what it gets.

2) it doesn't work correctly b/c it's the old software

3) I'm not saying why it runs best at lowest timing - that was part of the software fix recently (!)

Send them on in, and we'll have your PJS's "singing" instead of "screaming"!
Shawn

[erashby]

Originally posted by Shawn Palmer
This upgrade was just released a few weeks ago, so no, you do not have the new software. ...

Send them on in, and we'll have your PJS's "singing" instead of "screaming"!
Shawn

That is exactly why I buy CC ESCs.
Shawn, how long do you think I'll be without my Phoenix ESCs?
I may need to send them in one at a time if the turnover is too long. Is there a charge, since I just bought the Phoenix 10 (and a Razor 300) from you just a few months ago when I sent in my Phoenix 25 for the previous software update?

Please respond ASAP so I can get them mailed to you tomorrow.
Thanks,
Eric

[derway]

Well, for what it's worth, the phoenix 35 is working great, with my pjs-800, and it seems to work equally fine, at any pwm freq setting.

However, the sound changes a lot. At 11 and 22 kHz, that "tuning in short wave on b-grade sci-fi movies" sound is quite noticable. Maybe even a bit more so at 11. But at 41, it is gone. Much quiter.

Shawn, I wonder if that change in sound patter might be different, from the new to the previous pjs motors? Maybe give us a way to tell which we have?

Thanks for a good product, at a good price.

I just have one suggestion... :)

In programming, if I need to change just the 7th or 8th setting, it can take forever, to get through all the settings I don't want to change, (and may change by accident), or I have to say "no" 3 and 4 times, on several settings, even when the item is the default..

Since there is currently no way to skip directly to a particular question, how about at least giving a way to skip each question, say by just leaving the stick neutral, for longer than 4 seconds.

Alternatively, you could have the first "answer" to each question, be "leave unchanged".

Or at least make the usual defaults closer to being item 1, for each question, to not force us to answer "no" over and over and over, followed finally by a "yes".

Really sort of minor...

[Shawn Palmer]

Eric - no charge for the update, and we're running around 10 working days as turnaround right now (usually 2-3).

derway - I'm not familiar w/the differences in the PJS's and how to tell them apart - I just know they've been constantly re-done since introduction. As far as the programming - it will be VERY simple in the near future.

Shawn

[Pierre Audette]

I'm recycling a hard drive motor into an LRK brushless with the existing ring magnet, and delta wiring. Can I use the Pheonix 25 now, or should I swap 14 individual magnets (and poles) first? I'm not concerned about power output at this time, just want to know if it's going to run w/o damaging the ESC.

[derway]

You know, after flying for awhile, I'm not too impressed, with how the CC phoenix 35 works with my pjs-800.

Several times each flight, when I have completely throttled back, and it is stopped turning, I'll throttle back up, and nothing will happen. Then fully throttling back again, and waiting for the "re-arm" period, and it works.

Another, rarer problem occurs when the prop is free wheeling, (set for no brake), but throttled down all the way, and when I throttle up, it makes a horrible noise, and little if any power. Then, throttling all the way down again, waiting, and trying again, works.

I've tried all the pwm frequencies. I've got it on fast start. And normal advance.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Don

[opualuan]

get the latest fw upgrade.

[derway]

This is a 1 week old controller, with the latest fw.

[Patrick del Castillo]

Derway -- Try the normal startup (not the fast) that should take care of the poor starting when the motor is running.

Patrick

[bobandris]

Shawn,

Can you:

(1) Give us an idea of when the Phoenix 10 "micro" will be available?

(2) Will the Phoenix 25 also benefit from this weight loss program and become a "mini"?

Many Thanks,
Bob

[Shawn Palmer]

(1) this week

(2) eventually

Shawn

[erashby]

Shawn, something must have gone wrong with the firmware update. Now my Phoenix 10 stutters with my Razor 300, which is the motor that it was running before the software update.

I first tested the Phoenix 10 (with the latest software) with my PJS 300. I tried all different setting, but it would not startup right. So I hooked it up to my Razor 300. It waws properly controlling my Razor before I sent it in. Now it won't control my Razor either. It stutters just like the PJS 300.

Can you suggest some settings for the Razor so I can confirm that I need to send it back in, or better yet get it to work properly?

Bumbed:(

[Shawn Palmer]

erashby,

Default position start for the PJS, and fast start for the Razor.

Shawn

[erashby]

Originally posted by Shawn Palmer
erashby,

Default position start for the PJS, and fast start for the Razor.

Shawn

Shawn, thanks for the quick response. I've tried my razor and my PJS 300 on those settings as well as other settings, and the motor just jerks back and forth or runs intermittently. I did get the Razor to actually run, but it was only at about 30% throttle and changing the throttle either up or down would bring on the jerking. I checked the wires to the Rx and the wires to the motor and the battery and I found no intermitent connections. I did notice that the motor and the ESC got quite warm, but still handlable within a half minute of the "jerking" motor run. I am thinking that this is just do to the inefficiency of the motor running jerkily.

I am a little frustrated, and at a loss as to what to do. I am finally this Wednesday and Thursday going to have some time to fly, but I can't without my ESC. I've been thinking of ordering a new micro -10, but they are not available yet, are they? Some one mentioned that you could upgrade from the Phoenix 10 to the Phoenix 25 for $15. Is that correct? If it is then maybe I'll just upgrade, to the Phoenix 25 to use now and order a micro-10 for a replacement when they are available. Does that work? Do I send it back in? Can I call and give you a credit card so you can ship it 2-day USPS?

[derway]

On my pjs800, I find it much more reliable, using softest startup, and lowest advance.

For what it is worth...

Don

[Benster]

Hello,

I've just got the PJS550e AND cc25 FROM Aircraft World last week. The cc25 should be new stock with software upgrade as the cc25 was backordered.

On default startup, the PJS550e motor stutters and rotates randomly clockwise and counter. I've tried programming some combinations, but did not get the motor to work.

Would anyone know the solution to this? If I've to revert to default program setting, how do I do this?

Cheers.

[tjcooper]

Benster,
I have the PJS550e and cc25 from Dave's Aircraft World. It has worked just fantastically with the default settings. However, this weekend the cc25 died strangely and the motor does the shuttering clockwise and counterclockwise. Look at the controller. Are any of the FETs burned? It could be that your cc25 is toast - but Castle Creations will repair it. Are you using 3S1P Li-poly for your pack? If you use 2S1P it will barely work.
Crazy Ted

[Shawn Palmer]

Hi Benster,

the only programming feature that effects start-up is the "soft start" programming section. If you have no luck with all three settings not starting the motor - e-mail me at: shawnp@castlecreations.com and I'll get you taken care of.

Shawn

[Benster]

Thanks guys!

Have tried the soft setting with the lowest advance timing, and it WORKS!

Got some 3 cell etecs on the way. Havent tried the 2 cells yet, meanwhile might try the 2 cell... think it might be ok for a slowflyer.. :P keep ou guys updated should the working week not get the better of me.

Tomorrows a flying day!

Cheers

[Hovertime]

This is a very good thread explaining different settings and different motors, so lets bump it :)
One thing i am confused though-Shawn says that only thing affecting startup is "soft start" programming section, while i have noticed differences when using different advance (small diff) and switching freq (huge diff) I know he meant prop rocking back and forth on startup, but aside that these other settings change motor behavior at startup, example - high switching frequency starts motor very fast and abrupt, - very noticeable in a Heli, may go unnoticed in airplane.

[Shawn Palmer]

I guess it would be semantics, but more accurate to say - "if your motor won't start - the only setting that will make it start is in the soft start menu"

Shawn