question

[gponder]

For the last couple years, I've read everything on this forum. Now it appears dead, or at least disinterested in showing signs of life.

So here are comments and a question.

Many of the hands-on participants/experimenters that write to this forum are only working with power systems with minimal power output, and are having minimal success unless they can build a very light airframe. Typically, a speed 400 is the motor of choice. ***Yes, there are a few guys in this forum that have had good success with ECL, but many have not.***

So here's the question. Why are so many people committed to trying only minimal power? Is it minimal cost? By reading between the lines, I see that lots of effort, experimentation, and building skills are used to make a speed 400 plane that will do a loop or a wingover, and you better do it quick before the batteries run down. This sounds a lot like trying to do the full stunt pattern with a clapped-out babe-bee and 10% fuel.

I think many people have the goal of making an ECL ship that will do the full stunt pattern on a cheap motor. That's a great goal, but maybe it's not reasonable yet. Here's a suggestion. Calculate the cost of a good stunt engine, muffler, fuel tank and a season's worth of fuel. (In other words, what would it cost for the power system of a conventional stunter.) Allocate that much money to an electric motor and battery pack, and then see if you can afford something that says Astro Cobalt on it. I'm thinking the airplane is going to fly better and a person of average building skills will have a better chance of being able to build it. And that is what MIGHT put CL back in the schoolyards.

(Actual information follows: I just saw a website where every Astro Cobalt from a geared 25 on down was priced from $100 to $150. All of the motors had direct drive and at least one gearbox to choose from for that price. Yes, those are not cheap, but good equipment is usually not cheap.) Back to rhetoric:

As far as the charger you will need, that might (or might not) be offset by the starting battery, glowplug driver, and electric starter that you won't use. It depends on whether you currently go whole hog on starting equipment or not, and whether you are going to buy the best charger or the adequate charger.

If you end up not wanting the Astro motor, you can sell it on e*ay. There is a market for good motors.

OK, am I all wet?

Can we at least save this forum from sliding into the abyss?

glenn

[steve lewin]

Hi Glenn,

Nice to see a little interest on here. Are you currently flying any C/L stuff, electric or otherwise ?

You raise some interesting points. It's true some of us have been thinking about minimum cost systems. In several cases I know this is at least partly in order to provide cheap simple setups to introduce and train newcomers. In IC this would be just the sort of thing that flies with a marginal .049 on thread lines ;). There's not much wrong with that but when you do get someone interested it won't take them very far.

For more interesting setups I'm not sure anyone today would really want to go down the brushed cobalt route. The price of brushless motors is still coming down and the increased efficiency translates into needing less weight of battery for reasonable power and duration.

Unfortunately I haven't done any real work on this area for ages but I am still looking at an AXI powered small stunter. The trouble is that you have to do it purely for the challenge. It's just so easy to stick a PAW 15 diesel on the front of a profile model and have a nice flying model or perhaps something like a UKey and any cooking 35-40. Similar models with electric motor and battery will weigh 30-40% more.

What bothers me is how many people have any interest in C/L at all, electric or IC. It's so cheap to get into R/C these days with the Firebirds etc that I wonder if there really is a market for C/L. Lots of those of us who tried it years ago still do it or fancy trying it again but how do you get new blood to even try it when they can play with things with 3 axes of freedom instead of just 2 and where they don't have to spin round getting dizzy to fly ?

Steve

[gponder]

Hi, Steve:

I've never successfully flown C/L, which may be part of my motivation. I am a sometime free-flighter that hates to fail, and over 30 years ago I had a bad experience with a solid balsa (oak?) "trainer" (it wasn't) by Sterling. I know now that it weighed a ton, not to mention using an average .049 Babe Bee, not to mention that the wind doesn't really ever stop in Fort Worth, it just slows down occasionally. It only left the ground two or three times, and the thing may have done one full lap at a time, but it didn't ever do two. I can see when something just isn't going to work, and I decided to cut my losses and spend my time elsewhere.

So C/L has nagged at me all these years, but with family considerations now, I can't take off half a day on Saturday to drive somewhere where I can put in a flight or two. That's the thing electric can do for C/L. It can allow you to be right in the middle of town because it is so quiet. Yes, a diesel is not loud, but it is still an internal combustion engine and uses flammable fuel. Try convincing your neighbor ( or principal of the school, or director of the Parks and Recreation Dept) that model diesel fuel is safe after he finds out that ether is in there. And if he can hear it, it is too loud.

Here's my other reason I can't forget C/L. About 20 years ago I lived in Dallas, and I dropped in on a control line circle one evening. One guy was practicing, and he had one helper. The flier was Bob Gieseke. (spelling?) Won the Nats a few times for Stunt, maybe world champion, too, I'm not sure about that. I will never forget it. Even the landing. Ever seen somebody land one and you realize that was a world class landing. No bounces, no wobbles, just perfection. Never mind the loops, squares, and all the rest. So I've got this memory of seeing something that was done very well, but it still looked do-able. But there are damn few places where I'll be able to fly C/L with a glow engine around here. I'm really not sure if a diesel is quiet enough because I've never actually heard one, but I have seen an electric RC, and it was pretty quiet. (My free flight is rubber-powered or hand launch glider, no engines.)

You said "you have to do it (electric CL) purely for the challenge." Foe me, ECL is not for the challenge. ECL is the only reasonable way that I can participate in C/L at all. Glow means I could MAYBE fly twice a month during the summer. Not enough. There are 3-4 CL fliers in the area, and they have 2-3 places they might be able to fly on Saturday, depending on where they are allowed to go at any given point in time. In other words, they don't even have a regular place to fly; they just go wherever they can, and all the places are 30-60 miles from my house.

So for me, electric is not just an alternative power source. It's electric or nothing. Or more free flight.

Here's a follow-up for you. You mentioned AXI. What is that?

glenn

[Ryan Nau]

I saw Mike Palko fly a profile electric CL plane at brodaks and it was awesome. . It flew really great, just as good as a glow plane. Did the full pampa pattern no problem. I think he said it had an Axi brushless in it and 10 cells. It has me thinking about trying an electric CL stunt plane??

[steve lewin]

Ahh Mike's got his AXI brushless motored model working has he ? Excellent. I haven't seen him posting here for ages but perhaps he'll let us know how he's doing.

Steve

[Mike Palko]

I figured the word would get around. Yes my twister is flying better than ever but it still has alot to improve on. It weights in at 45oz and it is flying on 52' lines so the performance still isn't what i want.
I couldn't believe the positive response i got! Windy Urtnowski loved it so much he is already in the process of getting a power plant together and designing his own airplane. He said he has a few other people interested as well. If anybody on this board is interested he may (don't hold me to this) be selling rib kits and power system setup's. He mentioned having a fleet of airplanes by next spring.
I myself am not sure what i am going to do. Bob Hunt had mentioned me doing an artical for Flying Models. I was thinking of building a lost foam wing and going with my own design and power system just to keep the technology growing. (It's no fun if everybody has the same setup, and you don't learn as much either)
If anybody has any questions let me know. By the way Ryan it was nice to meet you and your dad. I wish i would have gotten to see your Accentor!

[gponder]

By all means, please do an article for Flying Models.

Think about all all the control line innovators that have gone before you. What if the Nobler had never been kitted or plans were never made available? Go ahead, tell everybody what you found out.

One of the things that prevents a modeler from trying something really different is not knowing if it will work. After all, why waste time and money on something that might not work. But if you know it will work because someone else has done it, that's different. The next guy gets to work on improving the wheel, not inventing the wheel.

glenn

[Mike Palko]

Sorry i meant Model Avaition (doesn't really make a differance). I would like to refine it a little more before i do an artical. Also it is up to Bob Hunt (Editor). I will keep you guys updated as always.
I do agree that people are much more interested if they know it will work. The better the performance gets the more interested i am getting. Hopefully i will have a competative model by next year. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!