Re: OS32 in Bench = 100% OK, in Heli = dead ?

[Mark Derbyshire]

Tor Rasmussen came forth with the following in rec.models.rc.helicopter

> I'm going nuts here.
> As my OS32 ABC engine is in bench with a spindle and prop on it, just
> nearing the starter, and it fires up.
> It handles all kinds of misadjustments to a certain level of the
> needles, takes about any plug, and is willing to run on almost any
> fuel.
>
> So I tune for top performance on an OS#8 with ModelTechnics 10% nitro.
>
> Put it in the heli. And not even a fireing sound. No smoke, completly
> dead. Try different plugs (gone through 2 new and 1 used OS#8)
> Nothing.. Different fuel. Nothing.

Have you got a remote start lead, perhaps that's u/s

>
> I can get it to start backwards with a hot plug. But it's real hard
> getting the engien to run right direction.
> And it only starts after several minutes with the starter on.
> Then after short time the engine overheats, and dies, needing a colder
> plug.
>

Sounds like something is bindng or out of alignment. My F1 60 did this and
I found that the clutch had too tight a tolerance. I sanded some clutch
liner away (to get 30 thou clearance) and I've had no problems since

--

Mark
ZX12R-B1 (Blue with 2 miles on the clock)
BOTSWCAW#3

[Tor Rasmussen]

I do start with a remote lead, but don't think thats the problem caus on my
fieldbox I can adjust the current to the plug.
And when it starts with a hot plug, I belive that the glowingprocess is
working.

In that beeing the case, the engine starts with a hot plug I don't think the
clutch could be a fault either cause the engine idles without engaging the
clucth, but on reving up the clutch engages.


>
> > I'm going nuts here.
> > As my OS32 ABC engine is in bench with a spindle and prop on it, just
> > nearing the starter, and it fires up.
> > It handles all kinds of misadjustments to a certain level of the
> > needles, takes about any plug, and is willing to run on almost any
> > fuel.
> >
> > So I tune for top performance on an OS#8 with ModelTechnics 10% nitro.
> >
> > Put it in the heli. And not even a fireing sound. No smoke, completly
> > dead. Try different plugs (gone through 2 new and 1 used OS#8)
> > Nothing.. Different fuel. Nothing.
>
> Have you got a remote start lead, perhaps that's u/s
>
> >
> > I can get it to start backwards with a hot plug. But it's real hard
> > getting the engien to run right direction.
> > And it only starts after several minutes with the starter on.
> > Then after short time the engine overheats, and dies, needing a colder
> > plug.
> >
>
> Sounds like something is bindng or out of alignment. My F1 60 did this
and
> I found that the clutch had too tight a tolerance. I sanded some clutch
> liner away (to get 30 thou clearance) and I've had no problems since
>
> --
>
> Mark
> ZX12R-B1 (Blue with 2 miles on the clock)
> BOTSWCAW#3

[Tor Rasmussen]

As I am currently working on this problem I'm starting to wonder.

On the bench I've got a spindle and a prop.
In the heli I start with a belt.

The starter on the spindel give a gearratio 1:1 beeing that the engine turns
1 round as the starter turns 1 round.

With the belt, the ratio is in disfavour for engine speed.
The belt is in a small grove in the starter, and a lagre grove below the
clutch.
That gives a ratio to the starter having to turn several times to turn the
engine one round.

Could this be the problem ?

[Helinut]

What about pressure feed?
I take it that in the heli your running pressure from the exhaust, are you
doing the same on the bench?
I have normally found that an engine that fires and runs backward is too
rich.
as an afterthought, as your using the belt, is the engine being turned the
right way?
regards
Helinut

[Ed Smega]

Tor Rasmussen wrote:

>I do start with a remote lead,
>
Tor,
I once had a problem with a remote glo plug lead. It was a single wire
to the plug and it used the heli frame as a ground, but because of the
finish on the frame there was not a good connection so the current to
the plug was very weak, solved the problem with a separate ground wire
from the remote glow connecto to the engine. Can't tell if this could
be your problem but it is easy to check and easy to fix. Clearly there
is nothing wrong with your engine, the problem must be related to the
heli installation. Keep us posted on how you resolve it. Good luck

Ed

[Philip Martin]

"Tor Rasmussen" <tor.rasmussen@tiscali.no> wrote in message
news:hzLza.13957$YZ6.435682@news010.worldonline.dk ...
> As I am currently working on this problem I'm starting to wonder.
>
> On the bench I've got a spindle and a prop.
> In the heli I start with a belt.
>
> The starter on the spindel give a gearratio 1:1 beeing that the engine
turns
> 1 round as the starter turns 1 round.
>
> With the belt, the ratio is in disfavour for engine speed.
> The belt is in a small grove in the starter, and a lagre grove below the
> clutch.
> That gives a ratio to the starter having to turn several times to turn the
> engine one round.
>
> Could this be the problem ?
>
How about, on the bench with the prop on, it acts as a fly-wheel to keep the
engine turning, whilst in the heli you have no such effect. Unless you
really let rip and engage the clutch that is!!

Also, is your fuel tank and take off at exactly the same height/level on the
bench as in the heli. That might be effecting your mixture setting?

Phil Martin.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 13/05/2003

[Tor Rasmussen]

Well, what I find strange is that the engine needs a hot plug in the heli,
but a OS#8 will run fine outside the heli.

I've just tried a brand new out of the box OS32 ring, and same situation.
No fireing with an 8 plug, but a hot bursts away almost at once.

Again I doubt the remote lead to be a problems (it's a 2 wire leading both +
and ground) cause the engine fires nice up on the hot plug and that with the
current at medium. I've tried boosting the glowlead to full current on the 8
plug but no difference.

Both the ABC and the ring engine has a tendency to start backwards, and I
know the starter and belt are going the right direction. Doubledchecked.

But the ring-engine has less tendency to start backwards, and if I take the
throttle down to very slow idle, it turns direction.

The reason for the engine to start the wrong direction I presume is the
hotplug causing it to be early timed in the ingition. Therefore before the
piston reaches the top, it gets blown back down again due to early
ingnition, and starts up the wrong direction.

Regarding the height of the tank, it's a standard Hirobo Shuttle, so I don't
see any other ways of mounting the tank on this one.

I'll keep it going and let you know where I end up.

"Philip Martin" <philip.martin1@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bao5oj$1rhhm$1@ID-129488.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Tor Rasmussen" <tor.rasmussen@tiscali.no> wrote in message
> news:hzLza.13957$YZ6.435682@news010.worldonline.dk ...
> > As I am currently working on this problem I'm starting to wonder.
> >
> > On the bench I've got a spindle and a prop.
> > In the heli I start with a belt.
> >
> > The starter on the spindel give a gearratio 1:1 beeing that the engine
> turns
> > 1 round as the starter turns 1 round.
> >
> > With the belt, the ratio is in disfavour for engine speed.
> > The belt is in a small grove in the starter, and a lagre grove below the
> > clutch.
> > That gives a ratio to the starter having to turn several times to turn
the
> > engine one round.
> >
> > Could this be the problem ?
> >
> How about, on the bench with the prop on, it acts as a fly-wheel to keep
the
> engine turning, whilst in the heli you have no such effect. Unless you
> really let rip and engage the clutch that is!!
>
> Also, is your fuel tank and take off at exactly the same height/level on
the
> bench as in the heli. That might be effecting your mixture setting?
>
> Phil Martin.
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 13/05/2003
>
>

[Tor Rasmussen]

Nope. I've tried tilting the heli (that beeing nose to the sky, cause nose
in ground would leave engine upside down)

No difference.

But there isn't a feedproblem. The muffler spits raw fuel after the starter
has been winding for some time.
The engine also runs "fine" backwards, so the fuel is getting there.

>
> Stick the nose of the heli in the ground and start it from that position
:-)
>
> You've obviously got a fuel FEED problem.
> --
> Beav

[Tor Rasmussen]

> Yeah, your right, whole heli is screwed. Just ship it to me. I'll pay
> shipping.
>
I'm not giving up just now. Gotta try som more.

Dunno if anyone of you noticed my "starter to engine ratio-teory". Few posts
up.

Well, tomorrow if nothing works, I'm putting a topstartersystem on the heli.
That would bring back the ratio beeing 1:1 between the starter and engine.

Also, my hot ModelTechnics-plug might be somewhat to hot. The OS#8 to cold
to get it started.
I've just got hold of a OS A3 to test in the morning.

I'll keep you posted.

If nothing works I might need First Name's adress and both OS and Hirobo
will have to pay for the shipping as I currently hold them both responisble
for my situation.

(Why the heck does it has to be so hard changing plugs in a Shuttle, and
where is those always-run-OS-engines)

[Philip Martin]

"Markerbeacon" <mad_b@remove.netconx.net> wrote in message
news:L8Uza.10636$nU4.8844@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com. ..
> Hey Tor,
> I just spent 45 minutes last night trying get the OS 32 w/ OS#8 in my
> Venture going. Was getting very pissed (on-going problem). Using a
Sullivan
> remote on the glow plug. Finally while turning the starter I reached down
> and touched the end of the remote glow adapter (glow plug end) with my
> finger and it fired right off. Was hardly making a good connection, so I
cut
> the wire and tossed the adaptor. Soldered a mini alligator clip to the end
> of the freshly cut wire and clipped it to the plug. Fires right off every
> time now. Should have done this from the get-go!
>
I know the advantage of many of the glow adapters is their portability, but
that's why I like's me Ripmax panel. With the ammeter on there you can see,
and adjust, the exact current the glow is drawing during start up:o)

Phil Martin.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 13/05/2003

[Wilbur Wilburforce]

Are you using a power panel to power the glow plug AND starter? If you are it
could be that the current going to the glow plug gets reduced when you engage
the starter. Thats one reason i use the "syringe" type glow plug ignitors as
they are a self contained unit with their own battery. I had the same problem
years ago with a belt start shuttle.

Seems like a very strange situation given that you say that there's raw fuel
coming from the exhaust and the plug and connection is fine. Fuel + glow should
result in an engine that runs. Something aint right and its either the fuel or
the glow!!



Will

[Moores Family]

Tor Rasmussen wrote:
>
> I do start with a remote lead, but don't think thats the problem caus on my
> fieldbox I can adjust the current to the plug.
> And when it starts with a hot plug, I belive that the glowingprocess is
> working.

Unless there's a short somewhere in the plug lead, perhaps at the clip
on the glowplug itself. Your panel will still show current.

Maybe it starts with the hot plug because they're a thinner element and
require less current in the first place.
JM

[Tor Rasmussen]

>
> Unless there's a short somewhere in the plug lead, perhaps at the clip
> on the glowplug itself. Your panel will still show current.
>


Your panel will still show current. !!!
Your panel will still show current. !!!
Your panel will still show current. !!!

I belive that was it. You've learnt me something today. I allways thought
that what the panel displayed was i direct connection with how bright the
plug glow.

I took the glowclip out of the heli and tested it on a plug, and you were
right on man !

> Maybe it starts with the hot plug because they're a thinner element and
> require less current in the first place.

The hot plug shines up when the panel says green. Due to the thin element.
The OS#8 doesn't shine what so ever. Even with the panel on sparkling red
and current at full the 8-plug didn't get enough current though the panel
said it did.

I've rewired the hole remote setup, and now even 8-plug shows a bright shine
when the panel says green.

BIG THANKS TO YOU MAN.

(And sorry First Name, no heli in the mail from me this time, cause this
bird is going back up there.)

[Moores Family]

Tor Rasmussen wrote:
>
> >
> > Unless there's a short somewhere in the plug lead, perhaps at the clip
> > on the glowplug itself. Your panel will still show current.
> >
>
> Your panel will still show current. !!!
> Your panel will still show current. !!!
> Your panel will still show current. !!!
>
> I belive that was it. You've learnt me something today. I allways thought
> that what the panel displayed was i direct connection with how bright the
> plug glow.
>
> I took the glowclip out of the heli and tested it on a plug, and you were
> right on man !
>
> > Maybe it starts with the hot plug because they're a thinner element and
> > require less current in the first place.
>
> The hot plug shines up when the panel says green. Due to the thin element.
> The OS#8 doesn't shine what so ever. Even with the panel on sparkling red
> and current at full the 8-plug didn't get enough current though the panel
> said it did.
>
> I've rewired the hole remote setup, and now even 8-plug shows a bright shine
> when the panel says green.
>
> BIG THANKS TO YOU MAN.
>
> (And sorry First Name, no heli in the mail from me this time, cause this
> bird is going back up there.)

:)

[Wavey]

In article <Xns93858EA594853derbysjm@130.133.1.4>, Mark Derbyshire wrote:
> Tor Rasmussen came forth with the following in rec.models.rc.helicopter
>
>> I'm going nuts here.
>> I can get it to start backwards with a hot plug. But it's real hard
>> getting the engien to run right direction.
>> And it only starts after several minutes with the starter on.
>
> Sounds like something is bindng or out of alignment. My F1 60 did this and
> I found that the clutch had too tight a tolerance. I sanded some clutch
> liner away (to get 30 thou clearance) and I've had no problems since
>

Hi Tor,

Mark could be onto something here. Do you have a shuttle Z with the belt start
and the ring a plastic spring type clutch?

My Belt start Z once showed similar symptoms.
(hard to start, lots of cranking when it had previously been spot on -
everything else checked out ok.)

Root Cause: clutch probs - The plastic clutch shoes slide outwards to engage
the bell on a keyed track on the flywheel/plastic belt pulley. One of the
shoes "key" broke causing it to jam and not retract properly. Still could
turn engine over and but the friction was enough to prevent the engine
from "catching" and running at idle.

Might be worth taking the engine out and checking the clutch shoes..

btw watch and not continously crank the engine on your starter.
5sec bursts or so.
If you crank for ages you could damage/overheat the switch on your starter.

From cold this is how i start my os32/shuttle after airframe check,
range check and fuel up. (Assuming fresh fuel, known good plug and previously
found engine settings - on mine main needle between 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 turns.
sorry don't know idle but wasn't far off factory setting)

glow OFF - v important
full throttle
crank for 5secs at a time until can see fuel pass up lines to carb.
At this point you can here the cranking sound "change" as fuel enters the
engine.
throttle to idle
check throttle is at idle
glow on
hold rotor head firmly + crank

For me this pretty much guarantees a 1st time start.

Also may be worth bypassing your powerpanel/remote glow lead with a clothespeg
type glowclip and glowstarter. On a shuttle this is fairly easy and gives you
2 advantages when troubleshooting a non-starter

- you completely bypass your remote glow setup. may be shorting or panel faulty
- power to crank the engine is separate from that to the plug so on a marginal
starter battery the plug power doesn't diminish as the engine is turned over.

Let me know what you find. I've a bag of Z clutch bits with 1 good shoe.
You are welcome to have them. I changed to the Z-ts top start but buying parts
separately is expensive - MUCH more economical to buy a full kit from
Cyberheli for spares.

hope this helps,

Dave.