I got to try it

[Arizona Chuck]

30 some years ago I started in modeling with 1/2A CL. If I remember right, it was fun. I want to give it a try again but what I remember or know about CL you can stick in your eye.
To start out I was thinking of something like a "Tiny" type plane. I can look up some old CL plans to get a start and maybe you guy can get me going in the right direction.
Some Question:
1. Is the CG the same as R/C??
2. I fly alone, will a release triggered by the elevator be a good way to go??
3. To stop the motor, can I rig up a third line to pull a switch or open a set of points. Any better ideas??
4. When I get this thing working, will it make me younger??:p

[Randy S]

I can't answer your questions Chuck, this isn't an area of the sport that I've tried yet, but... if you rig a third line to turn the motor off, why not have it so that it turns it on too? You know, like the old light fixtures with a string hanging from the ceiling. If I ever did try control line electrics, I think I would try to find a way to wear the battery on my belt, a kind of a trigger throttle (like slot cars) on the control handle, and run power through the lines. Only one would need to be insulated. I just don't know how much the wire would try to cut into the other doing loops. I would like to try this someday, but I'm having too much fun with r/c right now.

Good Luck,

Randy

[Arizona Chuck]

Randy, Having the battery on your belt was my first though but I found that the wires would have to be so big the weight would kill you. I like to think light weight.
You could do the off/on with a relay on the third string with a momentary switch. That might get complicated and heavy. I want to start out as simple as I can then add thing to see if it is really worth it.

[Dauntae]

AZ Chuck, My father was huge in C/L years ago and for flying alone for launches you can use a rc engine and a control line handle with a throttle, He still has a few around and it's pretty neat the way it works, the only bad piont is the price of the motor will be more for RC.

Dauntae

[Ray Lowinski]

The CG is pretty much the same.

Use a "stooge" to launch for a solo flight. It holds the rear wheel or a loop or whatever and you release it with a string.

To go along with the above, a pair of coated lines with a switch on the handle will allow you to start and stop the motor at will.

If you check into the CL Scale crowd you will see TX's adapted to run multiple channels too. They can control the speed, LG, bomb drop, flaps or anything else from a TX box on their hip.

Remember, size means nothing. There are stunters doing the full schedule with a 1/2A competitivly.

Keep 'em hummin'

Ray

[Arizona Chuck]

Thanks to those that responded.
Ray, I'm thinking if using the M100 or a SP400 direct drive for a motor. I could go with a cheap serplus motor. Would wires add much weight?? And I take it I would have to use a relay in the plane.
I'm kind of disappointed I didn't get more response. 77 people looked in at the thread, so there must be some interest. I would hate to see the CL group blow away for lack of activity. The "News" group will have more postings pretty soon.There could be a lot of fun to be had with CL. Things do not have to be complicated and expensive to be fun.
Come on guys, let see if we can get something going. Does anyone know of a simple set of plans we can download to get started?? Most of us probably have motors laying around so $2 worth of balsa, some string and a handle should let us make circles around ourselves. Where can you have more fun for the money?? If we can get it small enough, we can do it in the back yard.
Do we have any interest here??

[DNA]

Chuck,

It won't make you younger, but it will definitely make you dizzier. :)

[Ray Lowinski]

You know Chuck the E-flight following has pretty well adopted the "You get what you pay for" axiom. My experience with the surplus motors isn't good and I would go for the best S400 size motor you can afford, even if you have to save up a little while for it. Even if the flight times aren't long and/or the aerobatics not good ya gotta start somewhere.

If I were to go DD I probably would do the whole 1/2A thing with strings for lines. Just a bit removed from civilization for the test flights in case the roundy-roundy forces decide to make the plane go straight.

I believe my first choice would be a Herr kit or similiar high wing. Maybe a profile? I would also try a hand launch with a buddy and put a kill switch/wire on the belly ala Hyperfly.

At this rate I'll have to try one just for the heck of it. Everyone loves a comedy routine.

Keep 'em hummin'

Ray

[Arizona Chuck]

HELLO! anyone home in this group??:confused:

[BobK]

I've been lurking here all along, but didn't have much to contribute to the discussion lately. I'd like to put together some sort of ECL plane and have a couple ideas, but I have a pretty long project list I'd like to get to first. :rolleyes:

A few months back I looked into powering "down the wire" and concluded that it's possible, barely, maybe. The key idea is to use a higher voltage motor at a lower current. If I can run 20 volts at 5 amps it's the same power as 10 volts at 10 amps but one quarter the line losses or equivalently, same line losses but one quarter as much copper in the lines. Yes, copper, steel has way too high a resistance to be practical. Unfortunately copper's not that great a material for control lines.

[steve lewin]

Originally posted by Arizona Chuck
HELLO! anyone home in this group??:confused:

Some of us are out flying :)

If you have a look at some earlier threads in the forum you will find plenty of examples of what people have been doing. I guess they don't want to keep repeating themselves.

Not many people seem to be trying for the cheapest possible C/L model. Most of us are looking for reasonable peformance. There are plenty of interesting practical problems to be solved. E.g. by the time you have the battery in the plane it's starting to get heavy and the extra drag of coated lines (much thicker than you would otherwise need) don't help.

I'm currently playing with infrared or RF) "controllers" for the motor so I don't need the thick heavy lines. But I haven't got 'em working properly yet and it sounds like it would be too expensive for your tastes.

The simplest setup is a relay and switch to start it (been discussed in detail several times here). If you want to use a small motor like a Speed 400 direct drive you'll need to keep the plane very light. Why not just build one and try it. As you say a couple of dollars of wood and you're away. CG just in front of the bellcrank and let 'er rip. Let us know how you get on.

Steve

[Arizona Chuck]

"The key idea is to use a higher voltage motor at a lower current."

Forgive me for my crazy ideas, but if I have a 1000 of them I may come up with one good one.
Has anyone tried a 110V motor running the battery through a inverter?? We are still dealing with watts but my inverter is rated at 600 watts. I'm afraid the wires will still be to heavy but it is a thought.

slewin, I guess I should have posted my questions in the Newbe group and not bothered the experts. Sorry

I found some plans for CL, most didn't give the CG location. One was on the leading edge and one at 25%. I could put it in front of the bellcrank if I know where to put the bellcrank. I think I know the answer if I ask "where should I stick the bellcrank":eek:

[Ray Lowinski]

..AZ Chuck,

I know you're going for the same thing as the power companies. I really would like to see it when you do a loop and the coating rubs off the lines.:cool: Then again, have you ever flown in the morning dew? Lay the handle and lines down in the dew....Yup, just add water.

I believe I'll stick to the power in the plane thing and controls through the wires. Then again, Tesla had a neat idea for power transmission......:D

Keep 'em hummin'

Ray

[steve lewin]

Originally posted by Arizona Chuck
slewin, I guess I should have posted my questions in the Newbe group and not bothered the experts. Sorry


I didn't say anything remotely like that but if you want to take offense, fair enough. Good luck with your endeavours.

Bye - Steve

[DrDiode]

Chuck,
I have a beautiful way of doing a remote throttle for you and it could be done up as several methods.
I believe from all the C/L flying I did years ago that really an on / off would suffice.

The 4 things that come up..

1) Touch off a timer and let it start on it's own and fly the duration.This is a small circuit and a POWER mosfet or two

2).. Is you would use the steel leaders and run the control signals up the cables..this could be done but would be a pain

3) A foot pedal and use a simple IR on off switch
the pedal would be out at the center of the circle and a wire might run to a transmitter on the ground under the flight path that would allow you to turn it on and off

Use a TV remote shooting at the plane and just detect the IR 40Khz signal not decoded.I have used that out to 100+ feet before for cheap...


Check out my profile and email me and I'll detail this furthur.

[robertc]

Chuck, Just look through the threads here at what I and others have already done. My 'PARKLINER MK 1" thread has all the basic dimensions needed to build a S400 C/L model that works. I just built it out of my head.
Regards
Bob

[GWS4CEO]

GWS made a lot Indoor RC electric, shall we also designe some C/L to help peoples who want to fly but not enough money? :(

A set RC ARF at least cost $100 over. But a C/L ARF ( Battery not included) could be $20~40. I was C/L flyer around 1970! :P

How's that?:confused:

[Arizona Chuck]

Thanks for the response Houng-wen Lin,
I think there might be a market for cheap C/L. For myself I was looking for something different to play with when I wouldn't fly my R/C. If the plane is cheap enough you can let other people fly that you wouldn't turn a R/C plane over to.
I think it would be a good way to introduce kids (or anyone) to modeling. A cheap kit and the GWS motor would be a good way to go. Let them build and fly it.
That is one of the reasons I trying to come up with a simple way to shut the motor down. For yourself you can use all kind of complicated things but it wouldn't work for a flock of kid. I keep coming back to a third line that would pull the fuse or cut a connection. In my motorcycle hill climbing days we have a piece of leather stuck between a set of point tied to your wrist. That shorted out the motor when you fell off. I need to come up with something like that only backwards.

[DrDiode]

OK chuck ...if I made you a little controller for FREE would you try it??

[Pierre Audette]

I think Ric's idea of a cheap IR remote for the motor is the way to go. It could even be built right into the handle. You could prototype this with a hacked R/C car toy.

[Dereck]

Agree with all of the above - somehow, finding the time to build something is the trick right now. In the interests of keeping it simple, the on-board on-off switch has to be the front runner. That trick of overflying an IR switch sounded good until I wondered about the chances of wandering off so the model didn't actually overfly the 'switch' plus how to find and operate a footswitch in the centre of the circle while flying.

Would this IR switch have enough range to use a pointable flashlight/torch - like device that could be pointed at the model using one's spare hand?


Houng-wen - you could be the man responsible for the first truly low cost 'parkflier'!

How's about a Litestick type model with a control-line bellcrank control system replacing the radio gear under the wing? +

I too was a control-line flier in the 1970's. The last time I flew was with a Cox 049 powered twin, at Old Warden around 1991. The noise those two un-muffled little engines made flying together got me a lot of attention!

[steve lewin]

Chuck I think your string idea will work fine if you use a relay with it. It needs a momentary switch to start anyway so you just arrange a couple of contacts with a piece of dowel between them. Wrap the end of the dowel furthest from the string with tinfoil or similar (or make it a bit of metal tube with the bit nearest the string wrapped with plastic/paper to insulate it). As you pull the string the metallic part shorts the contacts and then the dowel comes out completely and you're away. Even just drilling a hole through a profile fus will probably be enough to hold it steady. It seems to work on the bench but I haven't tried it in real life yet.

Dereck you can certainly get enough range on IR to work from the centre of the circle. Even a TV remote will work but the range is a bit marginal. The only trouble I've had with IR is preventing it from sometimes randomly switching as bright sunlight gets to the receiver. I want to try putting the IR receiver in a lightproof tube pointing directly at the transmitter on the handle but, as usual, I haven't got a round tuit.

Steve

[DrDiode]

what sort of a motor/ battery combination are we talking about here?

[Arizona Chuck]

DrDiode
I would like to give the controller a try. I really don't expect you to do it for free, I appreciate you taking your time to help.
I was thinking of starting with the M100 280 motor and 8/300 NiMH batteries.
Next choice would be the Lite-Stik motor. I also have a box full of 400 and 550 motors but now I have to go with the nicad batteries and add weight.
I can design a plane to fit any motor (I hope). Would you put the CG at 25%??:confused:

[Looooeeee!]

Hi

Rat Shack carries a little 8 pin IC DIP that might work in this case with a circuit adapted from Stefan Voekoter's web site.

I've been playing with Mosfet and Bifet touch switches that activate when your body's voltage potential is applied to the gate or the inverting gate in the case of the bifet op amp

The beauty of the op amp is that you could have an applied 1 or 2 volts just through skin conductivity and activate the amp, (there are two of them in the BiFET) or shut the amp of with the same applied potential to the - or inverting input of the op-amp Most fets are fairly reliable in their function when held in potential with a small cap on the activated input

Why not use the regular control wires to send the signal to the two inputs of the op amp and have it activate his speed 400 speed control as a soft start, eliminating the buffer and intergrator. You use some small positive charge bled off of the main pack to activate or invert the op amp output.

As far as making the circuit, youl'd have to breadboard it up and try it out as I'm up to my wahzoo in stuff right now..

just some dumb thoughts

Looee ( My brain hurts too! )

[DrDiode]

Helluvan idea Looooeeeee!!

Ok...touch on and touch off of one of the leads you'll need a method of getting the wire into the plane though..like a piece of #26-28 stranded.
The rest is cake

I'm going to be using a FET that can handle up to 4 amps W/O sink and see how that flys...

The drawback of that is it's a big antenna and it might pick up a bunch of noise..and would be erratic.

========================================

What I was gonna make Chuck was a simple timer... A circuit that would give him about 20 seconds once he hit the button...to get to the plane and get ready.It would stay on until the LVD kicked in

Chuck what about that.....think that would be sufficient?

[DrDiode]

I always used to put the CG at the wing spar...or about 30% but between 25% and 35% worked you'll just have to adjust it to the plane

[Arizona Chuck]

DrDiode, I would think that would work. So the CG is not that much different then R/C ?? If that is so, it makes it easier, thanks.

[dr.E]

Aerocraft will be kitting the first ECL trainer. It was designed by me for the Hillsdale fliers (first AMA sanctioned ECL Club). It uses "hot wires" and an on off switch on the control handle that when pulsed it can be used as a rudimentary esc. An article of its construction and plans will be published in the near future. Slewin, I tried sending you a personal E mail but it was rejected. Send me an Email and I'll send you some pics for it.

BTW: Windy Urtinowsky took 5th place at the u/c scale nats with an I.R. controled system. There will be some articles written up in the magazines regarding the evolution of I.R. systems and Electric U/C.

[Dereck]

This is the bright kind of idea you need just as your modelling is about to be shut down for the Winter!

I've got this yellow Litestik'y thing in the basement, minus motor and wheels. Rig this up with a bellcrank under the wing someplace, balance at around 30% with the BC aft of the CG (very essential, I remember that much :eek: ), pushrod, leadouts and ukie stuff. The leadout guide could be thin ply or rebent paper clips.

At that amount of power, an on/off switch would do, once it loses power and lands, you could put the handle on the ground and walk out to grab it yourself ! The ukie gubbins plus switch will probably weigh less than the RC gear, so 20' lines would about work.

- And don't forget to tape your 2c's worth under the outboard tip!