Top Flite Gold Edition P-51D KIT Conversion to P-51B

[denial15]

There's a Top Flite ARF build thread here (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=790577), but I haven't found a build log, or conversion thread for the KIT yet.

I got the plane after much of the building was completed, so this will be more of a conversion and finishing thread. All comments are welcome and encouraged. This is the largest plane I have done like this and I'm sure I can use all of the help I can get.

I've had it about a year and I have been debating about if I wanted to finish this plane, or sell it and get an ARF. After looking at both options, this will definitely be more work, but I think it will be the less expensive alternative of the two.

I am the third owner of this plane. It's been in a mostly built condition for five years or more. I was given the plane for free from a good friend on the condition that I just finish it.

It has spent the last several years in garages and getting shoved around. It has developed quite a bit of hanger rash before I got it. One of the elevators was broke. Several holes have been punched in the balsa and balsa has been broken off of other places. Robart air retracts have been installed for the mains and a retractable tail wheel.

[denial15]

I was helping a friend move a few weeks ago and one of his movers ended up breaking the elevator completely off. I looked at it last week and decided it wouldn't be that difficult to fix, so I started fixing it.

One thing turned into another and I ended up fixing most of the breaks and damage to the balsa and found some other pieces that had been broken off and put it all back together. The Robarts are air up/air down. I dremeled holes for the wheels to fit and attached them.

I have had extremely good luck with Hobby City's motors, ESC's, servo's and batteries. I am planning on getting all of those from there. Unfortunately I have had really bad luck with that other "Hobby" store.

This (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7070) is the motor I was thinking about. I was also thinking of 8 cells by running two 4S5000 in series. I'll be lucky if this thing is under 10lbs. This motor should give me a little room if I go over.

Here's how it looks now. I found a conversion kit (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHV03&P=7) to make this a "B" model. Attached is the scheme I liked the most, so I will be converting this to a B model.

[denial15]

The motor will run well on 6 or 8 cells. It has been suggested that I use 6 cells to keep weight down. The weight gain to go from 6 cells to 8 cells is 8 oz. Even with the added weight, I'm thinking I may need the power so this will fly well. I fly near 5,000 ft elevation, and typically need to add a little more oomph to get planes to fly decent here. Will the trade off of 8 oz for the extra power be worth it?

Since I am the third owner, some of the paperwork is missing. There is nothing included with what I have that recommends servos. This will be full house with flaps, and probably a park servo to run the actuator for the retracts. Some local flyers that have similar size planes have recommended Hitec HS-475HB's for everything. Advantage Hobby (http://www.advantagehobby.com/product.php?productid=107971) seems to have a good deal on those servos, so I may get those.

One questionable topic is the aileron servo. The Top Flite Gold Edition kit is set up to only run ONE servo for the ailerons. Since the aileron linkages were installed and the wing is already covered, I think it would be quite a hassle to remove them and install dual servos. For the center servo, it gas been recommended that I use one with metal gears and over 100oz of torque. What do you think?

[kahloq]

Your motor choice is good. It gives you options. If you find that you are grazing the prop on takeoff or landing(say if your using a 16x10 like recommended on the motor specs)...then you could drop to a 14x12. You'll gain a lot of speed without much difference in amp draw relative to the 16x10.
Considering that its a buildt up kit and not an ARF(which tend to come out heavier), it may be possible to keep close to 10 pounds. My ARF version of the TF P-51 weighs 10.5 pounds with a saito 125 when dry(no fuel).
With an electric setup, you usually end up heavier. So...Im estimating probably cloer to 11 pounds or slightly more. But...remember, your carrying that weight the entire time. With a fuel plane...Im taking off at probably 11.5 pounds when you include fuel and that gets bled off weight wise. So at landing, by guessing anyhow....im probably at 11 pounds with the remaining fuel.

[kahloq]

Oh ...almost forgot. The color scheme you chose...which i also like.....happens to be the exact paint scheme on the KMP/ESM P-51B. I own that plane also, but havent built it yet.

I did, however, use that paint scheme as inspiration when I built the 150 size H9 P-51

[kahloq]

As a comparison, this is my TF .60 ARF P-51 with slightly modified color scheme.
If I were to do the plane again, Id use electric. I will be doing that on the ESM P-51B.

I have also had good luck with hobby city motors, batteries, etc.
Keep up the good work denial

[denial15]

Oh ...almost forgot. The color scheme you chose...which i also like.....happens to be the exact paint scheme on the KMP/ESM P-51B. I own that plane also, but havent built it yet.

I did, however, use that paint scheme as inspiration when I built the 150 size H9 P-51

That looks awesome. I hope mine turns out looking half that nice. As far as the blue where the green was, I've found it in that scheme too. This one has the same tail markings, so It may not be historically accurate. :D I haven't decided for sure if I want to do green or blue. I have some time yet before that comes around.

[denial15]

Oh ...almost forgot. The color scheme you chose...which i also like.....happens to be the exact paint scheme on the KMP/ESM P-51B. I own that plane also, but havent built it yet.

I did, however, use that paint scheme as inspiration when I built the 150 size H9 P-51

Where did you get the KMP/ESM P-51B?

[denial15]

Oh, I was looking at the Rhino Batteries on Hobby City's website. There's a 4900mAh 4S that is .5oz lighter than the Flightmax 5000 mAh's. That will save me an extra oz if it comes that close. I have some time still on that decision too.

As far as the color detailing, I am currently planning on air-brushing it. I'm hoping it will be a little more durable than covering and lighter weight.

[Gree]

Hi Denial. I have the Top Flite giant scale P51 kit, and I too want to convert it to the better looking B model.

I have had no luck trying to order the conversion kit from Top Flite or Great Planes who are supposed to supply it.

I was wondering if you would mind scanning all the wood formers etc when you get the kit so I could scale them up to 1/5th scale?

I'll be watching your conversion closely!

[denial15]

Hi Denial. I have the Top Flite giant scale P51 kit, and I too want to convert it to the better looking B model.

I have had no luck trying to order the conversion kit from Top Flite or Great Planes who are supposed to supply it.

I was wondering if you would mind scanning all the wood formers etc when you get the kit so I could scale them up to 1/5th scale?

I'll be watching your conversion closely!

I'll call my LHS and see if they can get it in. Would you rather I try and ship the conversion materials to you if I can get them, or just scan the 1/7 version for you? I'll be happy to do either for you. The big appeal to the conversion kit is the canopy. What is shipping like to Oz?

Mine won't be the fastest build. I work for the public and my wife is a stay at home mommy, so I have to ration things so the Mrs. doesn't give it the axe. And yes, she knows about every single plane I have :eek:, and is very generous (considering the circumstances) about how much I am allowed to spend. :D


This is a list of parts and prices from Top Flite's website required for the 1/5 conversion. I'll be happy to try and get you anything you need for it.

PART # DESCRIPTION QTY
REQ. PRICE
EACH
P51GBF01 1/8" x 5-1/8" x 10-1/8" DC TURTLE DECK FORMERS---1-----1.46
P51GW19 1/4" SQ. x 30" BALSA TE SPAR, FLAP LE--------------2-----0.52
P51GF29 1/8" x 3" x 23-7/8" BALSA FORWARD FUSELAGE-------2-----1.30
P51GBF02 5/8" x 3" x 23-7/8" TURTLE DECK BLOCK--------------1-----5.94
CANPY097 CANOPY--------------------------------------------1-----27.61
P51GBP03 INSTRUCTION MANUAL------------------------------1-----5.48
P51GBP04 PARTS LIST----------------------------------------1-----0.22
P51GBD01 DECAL SHEET--------------------------------------2-----13.63
P51GBP01R ROLLED FUSELAGE PLAN SHEET--------------------- 1-----7.79

[denial15]

Hey kahloq, Do you think the HS-645MG (http://www.advantagehobby.com/product.php?productid=44860&cat=294) ought to do it for the single servo on the ailerons?

[Gree]

Denial, that is a very generous offer thank you. I would appreciate that. Are you sure you would want to do that for me?

I managed to get to the point of having all the parts confirmed by great planes, then they ignored my email order and follow up emails and even a fax with my order on it... :( I have no idea why because the first email I got from them was great...

These were the parts I needed and the prices Great Planes quoted me in March...

P51GBF01 1.000 EA 1.512
P51GW19 2.000 EA .582
P51GF29 2.000 EA 2.354
P51GBF02 1.000 EA 7.335
CANPY097 1.000 EA 29.226
P51GBP03 1.000 EA 5.475
P51GBP01R 1.000 EA 7.962

and their email said...

"You can order by replying to this e-mail, mail, phone or fax.

Hobby Services
3002 N Apollo Dr. Ste. #1
Champaign, IL 61822

If you need further assistance, please contact us. You may contact us by email at partssupport@greatplanes.com, by phone at (217) 398-8970, or by fax at (217) 398-7721. (Please be sure to copy all previous email's into any future questions.) "

Maybe your local hobby store would have better luck, it would depend on price...

[denial15]

I have them checking to see if they can get them. If they can, I'll see if I can get dimensions and weights for everything and let you know what shipping would be. They get everything in for the same price Tower has on their website. For every $100 I spend, I get $5 off.

[Gree]

Tower doesn't list the 1/5th B conversion kit on their site though.

I really appreciate your help on this one, well beyond the 'call of duty' as it were. Thanks a million

[denial15]

You're absolutely right. I guess because Tower has the conversion kit for the 1/7 kit, I thought they would also have the 1/5 kit as well. My mistake. The LHS checks through Great Planes and Tower both. I can't seem to find anything on Great Planes website. I'll give them a call later today and see what they were able to find.

[delperena]

Where did you get the KMP/ESM P-51B?

TroyBuiltModels.com carries the ESM (Ever Soaring Models) Warbirds ARF - some on pre-order basis.

I just purchased (yesterday) an ESM P-51B ($299.00 + $59.00 for shipping), optioanl air-retracts ($139) and a Zenoah G26E ($324). There is a $1/CC promotional discount for the engine purchased in combo with a plane.

Del

[kahloq]

www.vqwarbirds.com also carries the ESM P-51B

I happen to get mine in an auction during a warbird fly-in banquet for $200

Denial...yes the 645MG should be fine.

[denial15]

Gree, I haven't forgot about you. I haven't heard back from the LHS yet.

I've been waiting for some HS81 clones to come back in stock before making my Hobby City order, now the motor for this plane is out of stock. :mad:
The servos aren't in yet either, so hopefully they'll both get back around the same time.:(

[Gree]

No problem Denial thank you. And if they don't have it no problem either. It would be great to have but I don't want you to go to any more trouble.

[denial15]

Look what came yesterday.

Obviously the kit contains everything I will need to complete the conversion. I think I probably could have managed without it, but this will make it look a lot nicer, and definitely more scale than I would have otherwise done.

Gree,
They said they couldn't find the parts for the 1/5 conversion with Tower OR Great Planes. I'll put a call in on Tuesday to Top Flite and see if they have a way to order it here in the States. It really isn't any trouble.

How big of a hurry are you to get something? If nothing else, I'll pack up the plans when I'm done with them and send them off your way. That may be a month or so depending on how much time I am going to be able to put into the plane the next few weeks.

[Gree]

Great denial, glad you go tyour parts. Seriously don't bother chasing it's ok. I contacted top flute myself, well tried to a few times, and what I did find out was that I had to go to great planes, and then like I said before the trial went cold. I won't even get to build this plane for a year or two yet even though I have most of the parts.

Perhaps a copy of the plans would be helpful when you're done though if that would be ok? I could scale them up. I think I read somewhere that someone makes alternate canopies...

[denial15]

Demolition is underway. I was going to wait until morning to start, but it started calling me from on top of the pantry.

Initially I was just going to look and see if it would be a problem with running air tubing if I covered the deck before getting the retracts functioning. It looks like I will have enough room from the underside by the rear wheel and the main wing area. The air tubing is already in place, I'm just paranoid something will not be working properly.

One thing let to another, and "looking" soon turned into tinkering, that soon turned into demolition. So I might as well see how far I get tonight.

[denial15]

Here are some before and after photos. The top of the deck was not covered when I got it, so all I had to do was tear down the sides and take off the formers for the "D" model.


It's ready for the formers for the "B".

[denial15]

Trial fit and sanding balsa stringers to shape around the elevator.

[denial15]

The new "B" stringers are in place and drying. I also cut out the turtle deck sides. The supplied kit provides two balsa sheets, enough for four sides. You are able to get two sides out of one sheet.

I also taped the sides together and sanded them smooth so they are both as close as possible. It's surprising how two cuts from the same mold can be so off. It was't bad, but there were a few pieces that needed to be touched up. With both sides together, you get the best of both cuts.

The "D" deck was smooth with the elevator. The new "B" turtle deck attaches to the top of the elevator. This is going to look really nice. I'm really glad I got the conversion kit. It is much easier than I thought it would be to convert.

[Gree]

Nice work, and fast! Looking forward to more.

[denial15]

Well, tonight just started out with me looking to see what needed to be done. I think I'm going to be done looking for tonight.

I glued the bottom of the sides to the rest of the fuse. I'm afraid if I try and glue it completely tonight the bend will cause the base of the fuse to pop out. I'll let this dry tonight and I'll finish off the sides tomorrow.

[denial15]

...It is much easier than I thought it would be to convert.

LOL, Two and a half hours later and I'm probably just over half way through. :rolleyes: :) It's easy, but time consuming. I guess I can't feel too bad, I've spent some time getting on the web updating the progress.

I really need to get some better sandpaper. This 400 grit is taking forever.

[denial15]

Nice work, and fast! Looking forward to more.

Thanks. It's nice to see someone else is awake. I guess most of the people on this side of the globe are in bed. 0100 here is 1900 there? You're probably getting mid 60's for temps. I think we hit a high today in the 40's if we were lucky. Last night was 18. Definitely some building time coming on.

[Gree]

Yes its 7pm here. I have no idea what temps you are talking about - we use degrees Celsius over here! but it was 39 degrees the other day so yeah its warming up, while your temps are cooling down. We also don't have a harsh winter so no building vs flying season.

A tip with the balsa sheeting. spray some windex on the outside of the sheeting. You can bend it very easily then and it will dry and hold the shape. I do that to all my sheeting on tight curves and pin it in pace to dry overnight. Then the next day you have a pre-shaped piece of wood you can glue on without worrying about stressing the wood.

You've inspired me to do some work on my P47! Off to the workbench.

[denial15]

65f = 18c
40f = 4c
18f = almost -8c

Wow. If I'm figuring it right, 39c = 102f. That's pretty dang hot. I was way off.

That's a really good tip about the Windex. This is my first balsa plane that I've done any building on. There's a little bit of a learning curve. :o

Let's see some pics of your P-47.

[Gree]

Yeah it can get up to 45 degrees Celsius here sometimes (113F). I hate summer.

I have a build thread on my '47 here if you're interested...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=861095

[Gree]

sorry double post!

[denial15]

Good thing I did some work last night. I had originally planned on spending most of today on it. So far, I've been able to spend about an hour.

The turtle deck sides are finishing drying. I decided to start on the hinges. I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I'm using medium Nylon pinned hinges (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0001P?I=LXK113&P=8). They won't be nice and snug as other methods. I'm not going to be too picky though.

To do the hinge slots, I'm using my handy-dandy Dremel tool. The cutting disc is just about the right size for the slots.

[denial15]

For those running Robart retracts, will this (http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=8347) air tank work?

[denial15]

Simon, I forgot to mention on your P-47 thread, but I like how you have your steerable tail wheel and rudder set up. Do you still have the HS 475HB in there, or did you switch it to a MG servo? I was thinking I was going to have to run two servos for that, but doing it that way will save one. I don't know why I didn't think of doing it that way.

[denial15]

One of the wing tips was broken when I got it. I took some balsa wood and made a small block out of it and started working it into shape. With the help of the Dremel tool and a little bit of sanding, it's as good as new.

[czechyour6]

Hope I get to run video on the maiden, nice work!

[denial15]

Oh great. I have a feeling my wife is taking a picture of my dusty head.

[denial15]

Yup. She started laughing and grabbed the camera. I guess I need some Selsun Blue.

[denial15]

Wow. There is a lot of sanding to do on that top former. My wife gave me the Dremel for Christmas a couple years back. We've been together for over 8 yrs, and it's the only thing she's ever been able to surprise me with. Thanks for the Dremel Babe!!!

The Dremel made quick (but dusty :p) work of the top former. I'll finish sanding it smooth and call it a night.

[denial15]

Wow. Who knew? I'm pretty proud of my self. Considering this is my first balsa plane, I think I did alright.

[Gree]

Simon, I forgot to mention on your P-47 thread, but I like how you have your steerable tail wheel and rudder set up. Do you still have the HS 475HB in there, or did you switch it to a MG servo? I was thinking I was going to have to run two servos for that, but doing it that way will save one. I don't know why I didn't think of doing it that way.

At the moment I still have the same servo in there but I'll swap it out before it's ready to fly for a spektrum servo.

Really nice work on the conversion. Keep the thread going I'd love to see how your build turns out!

[denial15]

What servo are you going to put in? Why are you changing it?

[Gree]

At the moment it is an analogue servo, and it buzzes a bit. I will replace it with the servo that comes with the DX7 - the Spektrum DS821 is a stronger digital servo and doesn't have that annoying buzzing sound. That's the only reason.

[denial15]

Gree, Shoot me a PM with your address and I will send those conversion directions to you. I haven't heard back anything about being able to order the conversion kit for your size.

[denial15]

I have done a little more on the plane this week. My motor finally came in stock. When it arrived, I only opened it up to look at it. 6 hours later it was mounted on the plane with 2/3 of the front balsa cowling built up. The next day I spent some more time on it getting the rest of the balsa on.

I have cut it roughly to shape using a razor blade, but I seem to have misplaced the 4" spinner. I don't dare do the finish sanding without the spinner to help with the correct shape and placement. I can't find a replacement nylon spinner either. The cheapest spinner Tower carries is an aluminum one for around $25. Believe it or not, the spinner is not on the parts listing for the Gold Edition Kit.

[maverick pro]

great work...and fast too. this has been my plan for a long time with the top flite mustang. i love the look of the B model mustangs. just need to finish my b-17 then order the mustang with the B conversion.

thanks ,mike

[Gree]

Thanks very much denial.... yes those parts for the 1/5th scale are like hen's teeth...

Will send you a PM now. Can't wait to see more photos of yours.

[denial15]

Here are some pretty crappy photos I took just to show the progress real quick. It's late and I'm heading to bed, but I meant to get some photos up earlier.

I made a plastic plate to mimic the 4" spinner back plate for a reference, but I can't get the center hole EXACTLY in the center. There is a difference of 1-2mm as it turns around, so I don't want to do the fine sanding until I can get something closer.

[denial15]

The work continues.

I had a neighbor with some madd tools make me a 4" back plate so I could round things off nicely. I did pretty good with the crappy one I made, but I still had to fill a couple little spots.

"Thanks for the Dremel Babe!!" She really did good with that one. It has saved me hours on builds, and probably about an hour tonight alone. I rounded the top off to a rough shape, then finished it off with some medium sand paper.

The cowl was a little tricky to trim just right, but it went quick. Go slow on this one. Cut a little too much and there's no going back.

The manual says you will remove a lot of balsa from the bottom front of the fuse. They weren't kidding. Again, with the help of the Dremel, this should go quickly. I made a rough template for "F-3" and outlined the fuse near where the leading edge of the wing will be.

Now, off to the garage.....

[denial15]

Here is the result from last night. It looked like a lot needed to come off just drawing the lines. Once I got to sanding, it seemed like even more. I need to smooth a little more on the top where the fuse meets the new nose. I also should probably do a little more sanding in the back side of the bottom of the fuse. It's close enough, but if you look at it from the side, you can see the angle of the lines from the cowl to the fuse don't match up perfectly. It's all close enough though and I may just leave it.

[Gree]

woah that's a lot of sanding! Looking good so far! Keep it up...

[Abbeville Pilot]

Yes I agree, there is lots of sanding involved at that point. I'm also building one these with the "B" conversion kit. I'm at the primer-panel lines-rivet stage. I did find a nice exhaust for this kit.

Here's the link, it might be usefull to someone who wants to add these. A bit pricey, but it looks nice.

http://http://www.pacific-scaled-aircraft.com/ (http://www.pacific-scaled-aircraft.com/)

[Gree]

do you have a build thread Abberville?

[Abbeville Pilot]

No, I don't have a build thread, and I have no way to upload any pics, untill 2 weeks when I get a new camera. By then I might be done with it, and probably flown.

[maverick pro]

You're absolutely right. I guess because Tower has the conversion kit for the 1/7 kit, I thought they would also have the 1/5 kit as well. My mistake. The LHS checks through Great Planes and Tower both. I can't seem to find anything on Great Planes website. I'll give them a call later today and see what they were able to find.

there is a guy on rcu selling very nice fiberglass top flite 1/5 giant scale turtle decks to convert to b model. if i still hade mine i would do the conversion with his kit.



mike

[denial15]

Do you have a link?

[maverick pro]

go to this website. he does a lot of fiberglass parts for the top flite giant 1/5

www.spychallaaircraft.com

mike

[Gree]

Thanks mike. I contacted him months ago about this product but it seemed a bit pricey for me at the time. I'll check it out again...

[maverick pro]

you bet....it was on rcu under warbirds but i guess some one bought it. its like 90 or 95 dollers for the conversion.

mike

[Gree]

I can't seem to see it on his web site anymore...

[Abbeville Pilot]

do you have a build thread Abberville?

This is the best I can do on a borrowed camera. I finished adding the panel line on the wing, and I burned in all the rivets. The pencil lines on the wing helped me on the rivet alignments, they will dissapear when I paint the wing. I will add the panel line-rivets to the fuse and then paint it.

[Abbeville Pilot]

Tried to get a close-up ,but this is the best I could do.

[denial15]

Gree, Did you get that post yet? I'm curious how long it will take.

[Gree]

Nope not as of yet. I will let you know though when it does get here.... Thanks again!

[denial15]

I finally got everything for the power system together. I don't have servos in yet, so I have no steering.

http://www.vimeo.com/9221604

http://www.vimeo.com/9221663

[Gree]

Looking good Denial! I can't wait until my '47 actually moves! I see from vimeo you fly FPV too?

[denial15]

Fpv?

edit:

Okay, I First Person Video. I thought that's what you meant, but I couldn't figure out why until I watched the video, then saw all of the other videos after.

No, actually I don't. We share a vimeo account as a club, so all of us can post our videos there. So there are a number of videos from different flyers in our club on there.

[Gree]

AH ok - yeah I saw the videos posted by the same user. I have an fpv set up sitting waiting for me to get to it. Have to do that in the next week or two...