[B]Flying Sub from voyage to the bottom of the sea[/B]

[AlbertChia]

Hi I just bought a Flying Sub from Moebius, and looking at it I think it can be converted into operational work piece. Has anybody done one before and would like to share some information on how to do it.

Sorry, forgot to attach the photos of sub.

[AlbertChia]

Hi Herrmill

I just got one of the SEA View kit from them and is now waiting for the low pressure pump and ADF to arrive. I am interested to get the FLYING SUB working, so far they had not done it.

[CaptainNemo12]

Is the hull pre-molded in yellow?

[AlbertChia]

Is the hull pre-molded in yellow?

Yes, it is.

[cmpang]

Hi I just bought a Flying Sub from Moebius, and looking at it I think it can be converted into operational work piece. Has anybody done one before and would like to share some information on how to do it.

Sorry, forgot to attach the photos of sub.

amazing...

[shin]

Contact Dave Merriman at D and E Miniatures
http://www.vabiz.com/d&e/

[colin-stevens]

just got a bit interested in this myself. assuming i can get it in the uk.
just tried the D&E site, cant find anything there
any clues/info/advice
colin

[AlbertChia]

just got a bit interested in this myself. assuming i can get it in the uk.
just tried the D&E site, cant find anything there
any clues/info/advice
colin

I am working on the jet propulsion unit, still trying to figure out how to work on the rudder and plane. Thinking of using a ball joint at the stern outlet. Also trying to mould the intake passage from acrylic tubing.

Part of the internal cabin would have to go to make space for the electronic and motors. It is still in the drawing stage, if anybody has got any good ideals on this would definitely shorten the time to get the model operational.

[shin]

just got a bit interested in this myself. assuming i can get it in the uk.
just tried the D&E site, cant find anything there
any clues/info/advice
colin

Sorry he had a video of the Flying sub built in the gallery but i notice that the link isnt working anymore
Would still contact him for info though

[AlbertChia]

Sorry he had a video of the Flying sub built in the gallery but i notice that the link isnt working anymore
Would still contact him for info though

I know of one that is build from two vehicle water pumps, the whole internal cabin was removed but it is abit slow. Hopefully the jet system can be faster.
Trying to recover the video on the pump system.

[AlbertChia]

Below is the rough sketch of the internal arrangement. Not too sure if I have left out anything.

[shin]

Thanks for the PDF
That looks like a promissing plan
Are you going to use differential thrust for steering?
And what are you going to do about diving and surfacing
Ive been toying around for quite some time the idea of converting the model to an rc flying sub
I put the idea on hold a while back and didnt think of it until i picked up one of these water cannons for a steal only $10, with the idea of using the propulsion units or parts of in the build
When i saw your thread i decided to try again
Will start again soon

[AlbertChia]

Shin,

How big is this toy? and I noted that the below drive motors which is waterproof I presume. Where you are from?

In the propulsion that I proposed, I am thinking of 2 X 28mm jet systems. But first I have to gather all the component to determine the total weight to establish the drive power requirement. I would love to see the sub jumping out of the water.

For the directional drive I am thinking of a ball joint systems for dive together with differential or variable on the motor for rudder.

Your feed back would be great.

[shin]

Hi albert
I live in the U.S.
But have visited your lovely country while serving in the U.S. Navy
Its getting way past my bedtime here 1:43 am
But will get back to you tomorrow
Looking forward to seeing what we can do to get these models going

[Subdave]

Hi Guys,
I used two Graupner jet drives in mine.
The motors and ESC's are in small cylinders attached to the back of the drives.
All the other R/C system parts and battery are inside of an Otter box.
After some trials getting her dialed in she works good now.
It is like flying underwater as I have pitch, roll, yaw, and throttle.
Just like an airplane. It was a fun project. ;) Dave.

[shin]

Sweet, awesome job
would love to see some video if able

[AlbertChia]

Hi Dave,

Thank you very much for the photos, can you give us the close up of the underside and the outlet directional control system. It would be nice to also give us the layout of your electronics inside the otters box.

By the look of it, your rudder control is by varaible speed from the two drive. Am I right?

Looking forward to getting more information from you.

Regards

[Subdave]

I will try and put together some basic info on my build.
Here is one early video I did while testing the roll axis.
It took a few tries to get the trimming correct. :confused: Dave.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/Jsps54/th_DSCN8397.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/Jsps54/?action=view&current=DSCN8397.flv)

[SilentHunter]

Im really liking that, great job man :) I have been dying to do something similar, but I have too much to do right now to start one... So your nozzles are 2D correct, just for pitch and roll? just the stock Graupner jet nozzles. Have you done the CG/MAC calc on it? Water is the same as air, just 3k or so more times as thick.

like it, nice logical layout too :)

[AlbertChia]

Hi Silent Hunter,

How do you do the Calculation on the CG/CP(What is this CP), do you have the formula?

[SilentHunter]

Hi,

Same as an airplane, in this case it would be like a mix of lifting body and flying wing. MAC is basically the point where all the lift occurs from flying through the water. So on an airplane wing, you want the MAC and CG (static weight balance) to be in the same point.

Let me check with my fluid dynamics master before I elaborate more...

Im sure i got my wires crossed, Im referring to MAC (mean aerodynamic center)

[teryn1]

In the world of aircraft flying in the atmosphere:

CP = center of presssure. center of pressure is a location where the vehicle lift force is represented as a single force vector and the moment is zero. This point changes with flight condition (angle of attack, altitude and Mach number).

AC = Aerodynamic center is a point where the pitching moment is invariant with lift coefficient (angle of attack). The difference in magnitude between the AC and center of gravity (CG) determines the amount of pitch stability the aircraft has for a given vehicle geometry.

MAC = mean aerodynamic chord. is a chord length (calculated using equations) that is used to compare performance for different wing shapes.

[SilentHunter]

well there you have it :) The same needs to be applied to balancing this "sub" because we want it to fly underwater like a plane in terms, not like a regular sub.

[Subdave]

The Graupner jet nozzles are 2D. Just turned 90 deg so the thrust is up and down not right and left.
I use the X-mixer in my radio on the pitch and roll but set up for rudder on the right stick. I use an external X-mixer on the two ESC's to control the throttle and rudder. I even have reverse although very slow. The water is ducted in through the open front windows and reversing the throttle pushes the water out the windows. I started with brushless motors but it was way to powerful and hard to control. The brushless ESC's did not really like the X-mixer either. I have two Mini-C 300 sized motors and two Micro Viper ESC's now. It still has good speed and not as hard to fly.
I was told to keep my weight close to the CG if I wanted to roll but it was so hard to control I ended up putting more foam out in the fins for stability.
She does not roll as good now but at least I can run.
It really helps to know how to fly well and I don't. :eek: More later. Dave.

[Robert Pulse]

I know it has been a while since anyone played in this thread but I have been playing around with one of those $9.00 kerosene transfer pumps available at menards for s&g's. I cut the end (motor end, pickup end) off and hooked it up to a 7.2 battery to see how long the existing motor would last. Very good thrust from it without metering. It would be even better if the output was a little smaller (I'm going there soon) It took all of 4 minutes to have a meltdown. I expected that as its only supposed to run on two D cells. Inside is a pod with the motor and rubber seals about 3/4 of an inch in diameter. It has the impeller attached directly to the motor shaft. The whole pod slides into the pickup tube and a cap pops onto the end to hold it in. I am going to modify the pod and install a different motor into it if it will fit. If that works I will try some other mods. I was going to try a speed 400 but it is too big for the shell I have taken pictures of this thing for you to look at. I want to install two of these into a Flying sub and remote control it. I noticed when I took the motor apart there wasn't any water in it. It was however so hot I couldn't hold onto it. Oh ya it smells really bad too.

[Robert Pulse]

Ok let see if this worked

[SilentHunter]

Well since you woke this up, I made a prototype WTC for the FS. not sure if it will sell as a precut pieces glue together kit or already finished...we'll see what happens with it.

I was inspired by Subdaves setup with this thing

Robert dont know about those pumps...maybe replace that anemic 24mm with a Speed 300 and it might be ok...

[Robert Pulse]

I was thinking mini v motor 380?

[SilentHunter]

yeah so long as it can be fit. I think 380 is just a little longer than 300. Anyway not a bad find there, i can think of a couple uses for such a device already. I want my FS to be ballistic and really be able to flip it around like a nut ya know :)

[Robert Pulse]

I have one of those jets, I put it into a kyosho jet ski thinking it would go faster and handle better but. Not too happy with it. I was going to put an astro flight 020 brushless in it but it threw a mag off the shaft and had nothing but problems with astro trying to get it repaired and tossed the idea! :mad:

[Robert Pulse]

I do like the cleanleness of the setup.
Bob

[SilentHunter]

Ahhh they're not bad little units, I like them. im going to run them on 480's see how that works out.

I have some other tricks up my sleeve for completely static roll and pitch control to try out, you know think RCS jets on a spacecraft

[Robert Pulse]

Did you build the radio box?

[Robert Pulse]

Guess I should have read a little closer OOPS LOL

[Subdave]

I like your idea Silenthunter.:cool:
I can't wait to see how you go with this. :) Dave.

[Robert Pulse]

Silenthunter
Have you seen this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoRSMh9DtiA
Do you think it is brushless?

[Subdave]

It is not brushless. That is a conversion made from a Lunar models kit and uses 500 sized Graupner motors. I based my design on John's conversion.
He has it trimmed out well but to do so meant he can't roll the craft as his batteries and flotation are out in the wings.
To roll you need the CG as close to center as you can get.
Mine was way too squirrely at first and I had to add some foam in the wings to make it more controllable. Fun stuff!! Dave.

[SilentHunter]

Robert yeah i saw that, sucks the vid is so jerky.

Dave, yep about the roll center, Yeah if done right these things could be a real blast to drive, we'll see what happens :)

[SilentHunter]

Dave how did you like how the Graupner jets fit in the holes on that rear bulkhead of the kit? was that meant to be or what....I was dumbfounded

[Subdave]

Tell me about it!!:)
I could hear the Do-Do Do-Do Do-Do Do-Do playing in the background!!
They just slid right in. :D Dave.

[Robert Pulse]

Ahhh they're not bad little units, I like them. im going to run them on 480's see how that works out.

I have some other tricks up my sleeve for completely static roll and pitch control to try out, you know think RCS jets on a spacecraft

Ok I'll watch the masters. I have the fs it's on it's way and will be watching intently. I have already bought the otterbox but maybe I'll find another use for it. (nut and bolt storage) Lol

[Subdave]

The 480 motors will work well although they are current eaters. :(
I used brushless at first but they were way to powerfull for good operation.:confused:
I use 300 sized motors from a Mini-C now.
The sub goes from Dr Jeckle to Mr Hyde after it hits a certain speed. :eek:
It wants to dive all the time. I have to keep pulling back on the stick to keep from diving when excellerating.
Flying under water is not for the faint of heart. :D Dave.

[Sub culture]

Have you tried fitting a leveller to see if that tames the beast?

[Subdave]

No.:o
I should try the new UPC1.
At least it would save me from pulling back on the stick all the time. :rolleyes:
It is kind of like seat of the pants flying now!! :D Dave.

[Subdave]

Here are two photos of the different motors I used.
The BP brushless and the 300 sized can motors. Dave.

[SilentHunter]

I was afraid the 480's would be current hogs... I think I'll give the brushless a try too, same price as a 480 setup

[Sub culture]

These motors are marvellous-

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/blue-wonder-1500kv-micro-brushless-outrunner-motor-p-404458.html

Cheap, but well made- the magnet spacing is very accuarte which cuts down on cogging and poor start-up issues.

They do them in different winds, so you can get the one that best suits.

[Robert Pulse]

Are the jet drives mounted through the fs lower half? Or they just open in the fs

[SilentHunter]

no just open intakes inside the hull. If not you'll get stuck on the surface when its inverted cause you be sucking air

[Robert Pulse]

Interesting!
I got the otterbox today Model 2000, Is the fs that big? Im impressed to have the box look so small in the sub. I may just use it. Any idea how deep their good for? and do you know how much difference there is between a 370 and 400 sized motor?

[SilentHunter]

I dont know W.T.F the otter box is...maybe that thing subdave used. yeah FS its roomy enough inside

300 size is 24mm, 400 is 28mm diameter

Keep in mind if you want to roll this thing, you need minimum transverse dimension from the WTC, the narrower the better. Thats why I designed mine just to the very edge of the pumpjets in width.

[jaguar75]

Box


http://www.otterbox.com/waterproof-cases/

[SilentHunter]

yeah I figured thats what it was. Thanks Jag

[Subdave]

I believe the depth is called out in the Otterbox paperwork.
I think it is 100FT. They are built very well. Dave.

[SilentHunter]

yeah 100ft is not that much, reinforce it with some CA and carbon tow :)

On a more serious note, here is the plan.

[SilentHunter]

O ringed cap is attached to the kit "vent" right here, for easy access. Essentially you dont have to split the shells of the sub to charge it up etc just pull that stupid cap off and your inside

[Robert Pulse]

That should still work at the shead aquarium in chicago though LOL

I like your design better silenthunter in fact I went out and bought some lexan today. All they had for tube was acrylic about 7/16" thick 2" in diameter. I was thinking You could run a tube all the way through the box and put in a bow thruster to make it go up or down, a gyro to help stabilize the flight under water. Oh too complicated!:D
Now what will you use to seal the motor shafts?

[SilentHunter]

Motor shafts dont get sealed, the get a plastic cap glued onto the pump unit to seal the universal joint well area. I have yet to make said cap so cant show it now.

[Robert Pulse]

and if the u-joint breaks or comes lose it will still be removable to access the joint?

[SilentHunter]

yep, just glued with silicone, Pry it off. Same with the lid of the WTC, cut the silicone and pull it off.

[Robert Pulse]

simple enough
Thanks Bob

[Robert Pulse]

sorta like this only smaller
E-Bay item number: 300334400133

[Robert Pulse]

I have an e-flite 420 brushless outrunner and speed control out of a blade 400 heli. Rated 3800 kv. If I used it on the jet drive, do you think it would have a melt down?:rolleyes:
Bob

[Sub culture]

Too hot for a sub. 1000-2000KV.

[Robert Pulse]

So something more like the E-Flite 6 series 2000KV
Darn I was thinking "flying sub" LOL

[Sub culture]

No far too much power. You want the little CD-ROM type brushless motors, like the ones I posted earlier on in this thread which are rated around 90 watts.

Any more than that, and you're over-egging the custard.

[Subdave]

My brushless motors were 250 watt units.
Way to much power.:eek:
I had over a 1/1 power to weight ratio. It could fly out of the water.
But was too hard to control.
Here is a video of a pump test. The pumps shot streams of water over twenty feet. Big streams!!:rolleyes: Dave.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/Jsps54/th_Supersoaker.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r260/Jsps54/?action=view&current=Supersoaker.flv)

[Robert Pulse]

Ok Maybe not brushless, BTW Ever seen anyone run two brushless off one speed control? and WTH does bump mean on the fs adds

[Sub culture]

Bump means to bump the post back up to the top of the board, so it becomes visible once again.

You can only run one controller per motor. This is due to the way brushless DC motors work.

[Robert Pulse]

Thanks Just wondered.
Came home and My fs was here WAY cool. $40.00 I think it was worth it. Looks like lots of fun!
Oh yes what US amount is this £5.42?

[Robert Pulse]

Do you guys leave the windows out?
Bob

[Robert Pulse]

http://www.rcnz.com/Shop/Service/Engine?Keywords=&PrCategoryLink=&Pr0_2543=0_4EE84
Here is another jet drive

[AlbertChia]

Well since you woke this up, I made a prototype WTC for the FS. not sure if it will sell as a precut pieces glue together kit or already finished...we'll see what happens with it.

I was inspired by Subdaves setup with this thing

Robert dont know about those pumps...maybe replace that anemic 24mm with a Speed 300 and it might be ok...

Hi,

Can you let me know which jet pump you are using and where did you get it from?

[Robert Pulse]

I haven't decided yet as I want to see how things go with other peoples build. I have been finding alternative jets that can be used for other things like pods. I forget what their called but several of the new cruise ships use them for steering and power. Just call me watching LOL
Bob

[Robert Pulse]

I know I ask too many questions, But Do you have any Idea what type of battery your going to use in the FS?

[SilentHunter]

Hi,

Can you let me know which jet pump you are using and where did you get it from?

Graupner mini jets Albert.

[SilentHunter]

Robert going to use lipoly for space savings

[Robert Pulse]

the reason I ask is I saw a li-ion battery on E-bay that was about the size of two aa batteries.
E-Bay item # 180441853971
ITEM FEATURES :

Brand new 11.1V 1350mAh stick type Li-ion battery.

Suitable for Tokyo Marui, ICS, Classic Army AEG (automatic electric gun).

Rechargeable battery with mini plug.

High capacity rechargeable battery with low price.

No memory effect.

Long lasting power for your RC models.

Please visit our eBay store for suitable charger.


DETAILS:

Weight - 136g

Size - 195mm x 20mm (diameter)

Type - Mini type

Connector - 4-pin balancer tab

Max continuous discharge rate - 12C

Maybe two in parallel

[Robert Pulse]

I had some 2" clear plastic tubing that I used to use for sewer jet demonstrations at trade shows and I went to the local hardware store and picked up a twist lock cap that fits, but it is difficult to get into the tube with the supplied rubber gasket. I removed the supplied gasket then I went to another hardware store and picked up 3 o- rings, two to take up the wide space in the cap and one to rest on top of the other two. I put the arangement into a bowl and filled it with max hot water. I used a waterproof grease so it wasn't difficult to slide the cap into the tube and I have had no leaks yet. I will have to secure the cap in some way so the pressure when under water won't pop the cap out.but I think I have come up with a cheap cap for my wtc. Ill get pictures tommorrow if there is no leaks.
Not even a drip this morning. LOL
Bob

[Robert Pulse]

Pix of the cap one untouched the other in the tube

[Robert Pulse]

Well I bought a venom fireball 370 sized motor to replace the junk that was installed in the pump. Got it all together and hooked it up to a 7.2 volt battery. Woohoo it jumped out of the sink. After playing with it for a few minutes it threw the impeller off the shaft of the motor. I attempted to ca the impeller back onto the shaft and let it dry. The next morning I hooked it up to a 6 volt battery. It still jumped out of the sink but spun the impeller off the shaft again. I think I have taken it on and off too many times so I am going to try a new pump. I think the impeller is nylon and it may be spinning too fast and throwing it off the shaft of the motor. Are there any adheasives that will bond nylon? I have non removable locktite that I could try but not sure if it will bond to nylon. Anybody Know? I think if I can get the impeller to stay on the shaft this thing has lots of uses. I think I'll try it on 4 volt to see where I am next.

Non removable locktite works so far. You have to keep it below 4" of water as it creates whirlpools from the intake then cavitates.
It will also need some type of filtering on the intake for use in a pond
Bob

[SilentHunter]

Your probably spinning your wheels with this thing (but having fun messing around...i know the feeling :) Those hokey press on nylon impellers and such are only ok for low power stuff (like a pump lol), there is really no practical way to deal with them to make them stay on the shaft. Nylon like polyethelene nothing sticks to really anyway.

Graupner mini jets are only like $25 bucks each...

I do like your tinkering though :)

[Robert Pulse]

OOOHHH I want to know where your supplier is for the jets mine was $43.00 $48. with shipping
Anyway I have had fun with the pump I was thinking azopod I think thats what their called. Proly spelled wrong though. imagine that LOL any way you didn't answer the question, do you leave the windows out on the FS?
I'm guessing yes to provide enough flow to the jets.
Bob

[SilentHunter]

Bob,

Aw sorry they are $32 each, were 23 last time I bought a batch.

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/graupner_2349.html

Believe it or not they actually have a great price on lots of their stuff. I was and am amazed and rolled my eyes when I first saw they were in England.

[SilentHunter]

I have not driven my FS, but no, I would put the windows in and open up the intakes on the side of the windows to the same area as the pump inlets. Actually thats even more than needed.

Subdave has used his ask him what he did.

If you devise your own pumpjets, then you have to rig up vectoring nozzles etc... So your not saving nada in the long run really re-engineering those pumps

[Robert Pulse]

I have the graupner pumps Not sure what I am going to power them with yet I thought about having the pumps go up and down and adding a rudder to go right to left

[Robert Pulse]

In post 15 I was looking at your control cables. What are they? Also the external v- mixer, can it be used without a computer radio? and what battery were you using for power? I was looking at information on li-ion batteries and everything I've read says never to get them wet. Is the same said of li-po batteries?
I want to get this right so thats why all the questions.
Bob

[Robert Pulse]

anybody
Ok I just went for two of the blue wonder brushless motors. I have one e-flite 10 amp speed control and I'm going to get another. e-bay Item number: 360208039310 (motor) Going to run them on a 3 cell 2200 mah 15c 11.1 volt lipo. Question can I disable one speed control's bec and use the other for the recievers power? There I go again with questions :rolleyes:
Bob

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/blue-wonder-1500kv-micro-brushless-outrunner-motor-p-404458.html

[GreenAmphibian]

No reason not to. Just unplug the signal wire.

[Sub culture]

You'll be pleased with those motors, they're very good value and run very nicely.

You may find 2 cells li-po is sufficient.

[Robert Pulse]

Well I have the 3 cell lipos, do you think they will be too much?
Bob

[Sub culture]

Might be- pushing over 150 watts into a little boat like that- it will be lively to say the least.

[bcliffe]

Bob,

My compliments on your project ... looks to be going well. Just in case it helps here is my build log for a slightly bigger FS1 then what you are building.

Hopefully you will find some of the material useful.

http://www.bcliffe.com/subs/FS1.html

Keep going !!

Cheers
Ben

[Robert Pulse]

Nice
I think my little brushless version is going to skip across the water so I have decided to open the wheel wells 1/8th inch to keep the water flowing into the hull sort of like scoops. I was thinking about installing the windshields because without them it appears to be missing something. I think that also having the windows in will keep small fish and debris from the inside of the hull. I have lots of 100 mesh brass screen laying around to put on the inside of the water intake areas where needed. I like the brass rod you put in the vents on yours, it looks great. I went to batteries Plus the other day and picked up some single super bright led flashlights to use as the front lighting. DON"T stare at them their really bright. This build is turning out to be quite fun.
Bob

[bcliffe]

Perfect, sounds good Bob.

One thing you will find when you get it into the water ... the shape of the hull will make the boat dive with very little forward motion. Just make sure you design some room on the low speed end to at least control the sub for first getting under the water before you open the throttles up.

Cheers
BC

[Sub culture]

Get a leveller. That will help a lot with depth keeping.

[Robert Pulse]

Ok dumb question
What does a leveler control to keep the sub level There are no diving planes Yet

[bcliffe]

Well I don't use a leveler in my FS1 while I do in other subs ...

If I was to use one in the FS1 it would be connected to the pitch servo that controls the angle of the pump jets in the vertical plane.

[Sub culture]

You'll need one if you're going to go fast.

[Robert Pulse]

where do you get them?


I also posed this question to traxxas (how waterproof are your waterproof servos and this is the response

Hello Bob,

It is waterproof at 1ATM. It is not intended for submersion so there is no depth rating.



Best regards,
Steve Lindholm,
TRAXXAS Customer Service