Need a *little* help ;)

[jco223]

Hi boys and girls, I need some help here.

I need a list of parts that YOU think would be right for a UAV with my needs. This includes the body itself.

So here are my needs:

1) flight level between 300-1000 meters (900 to 3300 feet, appx)
2) flight time of at least 2 hours
3) flight distance of at least 20km
4) OSD with altimeter, gps coordinates, speed indicator, (home) base indicator, link quality, flight time, battery levels, wind direction, wind speed.
5) must have 2 cameras and two video TX (or if is possible, with one video TX) One for flight and one for aerial photography/video. Both cameras must have Pan and Tilt, One camera must have PTZ. The camera with PTZ must be high quality.
6) wing span is limited to 1.8 meters (5' 11")
7) must be able to return to base (general area) if link is disconnected.
8) must have flight data recorder
9) must be able to be programmable up to 8 GPS points
10) must have landing gear


The UAV must be super stabilized.

The $ I'm willing to put into it is up to $4,500.

Thanks for reading the post, and I hope to see some replies!

[GeeW]

I.C. or electric?
What limits span? Could you accept a 2 or 3 piece wing?
A bigger vintage or motorglider type airframe might be a possibility as this will give you the payload and the space to put it mostly inside. (Imagine a larger version of what Icebear is using) but is not very good in stronger wind/turbulence.
Landing gear, is it just for landing or are you hoping to work from a runway? Is glider type undercarriage OK?
Gordon

[jco223]

I.C. or electric?
What limits span? Could you accept a 2 or 3 piece wing?
A bigger vintage or motorglider type airframe might be a possibility as this will give you the payload and the space to put it mostly inside. (Imagine a larger version of what Icebear is using) but is not very good in stronger wind/turbulence.
Landing gear, is it just for landing or are you hoping to work from a runway? Is glider type undercarriage OK?
Gordon

Gordon,

The reason for the span limit, is it needs to fit in a 4 door sedan, and that's pretty much the legal limit here AFAIK ;)

2 piece wing sounds easier to put together in the field and just less maintenance in general.

It _has_ to be electric.

The landing gear is for takeoff as well as landing on asphalt. I think a glider type carriage wouldnt be suitable for asphalt.. or am i wrong?

Thanks,

Adam

[airmcn_3]

Hi boys and girls, I need some help here.

I need a list of parts that YOU think would be right for a UAV with my needs. This includes the body itself.

So here are my needs:

1) flight level between 300-1000 meters (900 to 3300 feet, appx)
2) flight time of at least 2 hours
3) flight distance of at least 20km
4) OSD with altimeter, gps coordinates, speed indicator, (home) base indicator, link quality, flight time, battery levels, wind direction, wind speed.
5) must have 2 cameras and two video TX (or if is possible, with one video TX) One for flight and one for aerial photography/video. Both cameras must have Pan and Tilt, One camera must have PTZ. The camera with PTZ must be high quality.
6) wing span is limited to 1.8 meters (5' 11")
7) must be able to return to base (general area) if link is disconnected.
8) must have flight data recorder
9) must be able to be programmable up to 8 GPS points
10) must have landing gear


The UAV must be super stabilized.

The $ I'm willing to put into it is up to $4,500.

Thanks for reading the post, and I hope to see some replies!


Do you realize that you are asking us to provide you with all the information to build and fly a UAS that is capable of breaking the law? Better yet a lot of us have spent years to get a system as such to work in somewhat perfect harmony and have spent a lot of $ to do so. You may find individuals are not willing to relinquish information as such very easily...

I am not trying to be a ball buster here but if it was as easy as a single post with your needs everyone on here would be successful UAS pilots......

I wish you luck in your adventure, I would recommend something like a telemaster with an attopilot to get your feet wet......

Chris

[RolandS888]

Step 1: Quadruple your budget.


Do you realize that you are asking us to provide you with all the information to build and fly a UAS that is capable of breaking the law?
Better yet a lot of us have spent years to get a system as such to work in somewhat perfect harmony and have spent a lot of $ to do so.
Chris

Had to laugh Chris, on the surface there is a contradiction in there somewhere.
But you are right, no one that has spent any decent amount of time and $ on R&D is going to spill their 'recipe'.


Small steps are the name of the game jco223, work on subsystems, master each one then move to the next. Remember to make sure that acceptable subsystems are compatible with each other along the way.
Goodluck, keep us posted on your equipment choices ;)
Cheers,
Roland

[BeefStake]

Do you realize that you are asking us to provide you with all the information to build and fly a UAS that is capable of breaking the law? Better yet a lot of us have spent years to get a system as such to work in somewhat perfect harmony and have spent a lot of $ to do so. You may find individuals are not willing to relinquish information as such very easily...

I am not trying to be a ball buster here but if it was as easy as a single post with your needs everyone on here would be successful UAS pilots......

I wish you luck in your adventure, I would recommend something like a telemaster with an attopilot to get your feet wet......

Chris

Well he didn't state that the aircraft would be illegal in his country.. we don't know where he is from and shouldn't assume he is from a country with strict UAV laws.

Ok what you are going to need is a decent sized airframe. That 1.8m span won't be possible, 2 piece to bring you to 3.6m is much more possible.
Take a look at something like a 1/3 Piper Cub. Will be able to lift nearly anything but you will need a massive electric powerplant.
The 2hr flight time is going to cost you an arm and a leg in batteries.
You are talking about an airframe that is probably going to weigh 10-13kg.
So maybe around 10s at 50Ah to get where you need to be and back.
20kkm data links are going to be a pain, comms isn't as easy as it sounds and is often not considered as much as it should be.
Take a look at Digis 9Xtend modems. They are 900mhz (really good RF penetration and resistance to attenuation) which is an international ISM band. If 900mhz isn't an option or you have access to UHF check out 433mhz.
You don't seem to require much in the way of autonomy.. for your purposes something like the Ardupilot or Attopilot (Expensive Ardupilot) would do fine.
Doing it under $4.5k is going to be a squeeze..
Not sure if you are talking USD or AUD or whatever but yeah..
USD you might just be ok. Your airframe will set you back about $1k USD.
Cameras are not cheap.
PTZ mounts are few and far between, especially setups that are light enough for UAS.

I agree with airmcn though.
If you are asking for this sort of information it is very likely you are not in a position to construct a UAS.
I suggest you take his advice.
Though I would recommend an EasyGlider and the Ardupilot.
Cheap, easy, fun and educational.
Goodluck.

Joey.

[stikmunkeyrc]

...

The $ I'm willing to put into it is up to $4,500...

Sorry man, can't be done reliably for that price! :D

[airmcn_3]

Well he didn't state that the aircraft would be illegal in his country.. we don't know where he is from and shouldn't assume he is from a country with strict UAV laws.



Joey.


Ya did not take that into thought........ My stance is still firm as the rest of you have agreed.

Chris

[fnev]

Funny how some requirements pop out from nowhere from time to time… This is NOT a small project as it sounds and some of the requirements are not coming from someone that knows what it implies.

It is stated “at least 20 km” for altitude between 300 and 1000 meter. Just to keep the line of sight with the earth curvature is marginal (at best) in this case for reliable link. Antennas are going to be pretty critical (especially at the ground level) to achieve this as well.

Two gimbaled cameras require two separate control loops PLUS the aircraft control trough the autopilot: you need a pretty good link for this level of information to go trough AND a pretty good mission computer.

1.8 meter wing span: as stated earlier is a jock for what is required especially with the “at least 2 hours flight” with electric power… if achievable.

We are speaking of a pretty serious requirement (BTW a lot of people/companies are looking into similar requirements) to get it within a budget of 4,500 $ is almost an insult to people working (very hard) on developing and promoting UAVs.

As stated earlier as well: what about the legality of such “offer”…???

[jco223]

Well he didn't state that the aircraft would be illegal in his country.. we don't know where he is from and shouldn't assume he is from a country with strict UAV laws.

Ok what you are going to need is a decent sized airframe. That 1.8m span won't be possible, 2 piece to bring you to 3.6m is much more possible.
Take a look at something like a 1/3 Piper Cub. Will be able to lift nearly anything but you will need a massive electric powerplant.
The 2hr flight time is going to cost you an arm and a leg in batteries.
You are talking about an airframe that is probably going to weigh 10-13kg.
So maybe around 10s at 50Ah to get where you need to be and back.
20kkm data links are going to be a pain, comms isn't as easy as it sounds and is often not considered as much as it should be.
Take a look at Digis 9Xtend modems. They are 900mhz (really good RF penetration and resistance to attenuation) which is an international ISM band. If 900mhz isn't an option or you have access to UHF check out 433mhz.
You don't seem to require much in the way of autonomy.. for your purposes something like the Ardupilot or Attopilot (Expensive Ardupilot) would do fine.
Doing it under $4.5k is going to be a squeeze..
Not sure if you are talking USD or AUD or whatever but yeah..
USD you might just be ok. Your airframe will set you back about $1k USD.
Cameras are not cheap.
PTZ mounts are few and far between, especially setups that are light enough for UAS.

I agree with airmcn though.
If you are asking for this sort of information it is very likely you are not in a position to construct a UAS.
I suggest you take his advice.
Though I would recommend an EasyGlider and the Ardupilot.
Cheap, easy, fun and educational.
Goodluck.

Joey.

Thanks for a more than decent response.

I'm not trying to break the law, nor will I.
I'm not looking to buy a prebuilt uav/uas, I'm looking to build one myself.
I'm not trying to get your 'recipes' out of you.

I guess I didn't make my first post clear...
I'm trying to figure out what the MINIMAL requirements are.
I've gone through most of this forum, but couldn't come up with a list of adequate parts/price.

I'm sorry if it was an insult to this community to ask such a question for a first post.

I do not want to go into my background too much, but I was a hermes 450 controller, this means, I am licensed to opeate any sort of UAV. (at least in this country.)

Again, I apologize if I seemed to eager to get some information.

[airmcn_3]

Thanks for a more than decent response.

I'm not trying to break the law, nor will I.
I'm not looking to buy a prebuilt uav/uas, I'm looking to build one myself.
I'm not trying to get your 'recipes' out of you.

I guess I didn't make my first post clear...
I'm trying to figure out what the MINIMAL requirements are.
I've gone through most of this forum, but couldn't come up with a list of adequate parts/price.

I'm sorry if it was an insult to this community to ask such a question for a first post.

I do not want to go into my background too much, but I was a hermes 450 controller, this means, I am licensed to opeate any sort of UAV. (at least in this country.)

Again, I apologize if I seemed to eager to get some information.


No need to apologize and sorry if I sounded rude or too blunt.

[fnev]

“I do not want to go into my background too much, but I was a Hermes 450 controller, this means, I am licensed to operate any sort of UAV. (at least in this country.)”

So, in that case you should know better and realize what the implications are for your requirement.

For what you are looking for a lot of subsystems/components will need to be developed. Off the shelve items for UAVs doesn’t exist… we are speaking of a pretty serious system here, not a model airplane approach/extension.

[BeefStake]

Ahh so you are in Israel I presume? (Hermes controller and all..)
But yeah what currency are you talking in and would you be building your own airframe?
The other big questions are what abilities do you have in terms of electronics and programming.
And the biggest of all, what level of autonomy are you aiming to achieve and are you looking for an off the shelf autopilot solution?

I don't mind giving you a hand with these sort of high level ideas, I find it rather enjoyable. Aslong as you know what you are doing I am cool with it.

[jetstreaming]

So here are my needs:

1) flight level between 300-1000 meters (900 to 3300 feet, appx)
2) flight time of at least 2 hours
3) flight distance of at least 20km



These Three points worry me. Imagine what it would be like if HUNDREDS of "Amateur" hobbyists were able to build craft capable of these 3 variables - AND BE FLYING THEM ?

You wont have 100's of hours of research and design.
Just a model with components thrown together - the potential for an electrical/mechanical failure being high, especially when it's buzzing along for 2 hours at a time, or has flown 20km away! #

Then the potential to overlook something like not enough fuel to complete the mission (landing/crashng short), incorrect waypoint data takes it off course, causing total loss!

Also, covering 20km of airspace, the potential for your craft to suddenly find itself in the flight path of another aircraft (or structure) being magnified considerably.

However, its an interesting project with very high expectations, I wish you luck. Unfortunately (for me), far beyond my R/C expertise to provide any further guidance. :)

[jetstreaming]

Step 1: Quadruple your budget.




Had to laugh Chris, on the surface there is a contradiction in there somewhere.
But you are right, no one that has spent any decent amount of time and $ on R&D is going to spill their 'recipe'.


Small steps are the name of the game jco223, work on subsystems, master each one then move to the next. Remember to make sure that acceptable subsystems are compatible with each other along the way.
Goodluck, keep us posted on your equipment choices ;)
Cheers,
Roland

I also read contradiction in your post too (highlighted in bold)! :D ;)
But I agree with your advice and concepts.

[Mecha]

jco223- I would recommend you take a look in the FPV and Aerial Photography forums for the camera and telemetry links. There you may find more appropriate information than in the UAV forum.

As far as the design of the power plant have a look in the Power Systems forum, plenty of info there.

Every system is unique and unless you pay someone to design it for you, you will have to do your homework and read plenty of forums, magazine articles and belong to an RC club to get the hands on experience from other pilots.

Can you tell us what the purpose of the 20km flight is for?

Also, have in mind that the power requirements will depend if the UAS is to be flown over water, near the coast line, over a jungle, in the desert, over snow. It really depends as wind and temperature will have a heavy impact on the performance of the system.

My recommendations:

For 2 hours flight go with a power system running at high voltage, 12s and low current 5-10A, 15000mah should get you in the ballpark and be around $400 if you buy the stuff from HobbyKing.

My approach to building or choosing the airframe would come after deciding what camera, video transmitter, autopilot and power system will be used. Once you know how much weight these will take, search for a plane capable of lifting and accommodating the payload. The more aerodynamic and lighter your pane the better, 90-100 Watts/ Kilo should be plenty for level flight. Again, it depends where you will be flying, as more power may be needed. Flying wings could work very well for your requirements.

For Autopilot here is where a big chunk of the $$ will go. A Picolo LT, Attopilot, Paparazzi or Ardupilot could do the job.

For telemetry try the XBee Pro XSC $80, and use a directional antenna mounted on a high pole $200.

For cameras and video downlink I have no Idea but it will be lots of $$$$.

Good luck and post pictures once you build it.

[RolandS888]

I also read contradiction in your post too (highlighted in bold)! :D ;)
Yep, good to see it didnt go completely unnoticed.

But I agree with your advice and concepts.
Thankyouverymuuuuch.

Cheers,
R.

[fly_boy99]

WT?

You recommend lifting this large load with 500W? I will just sit back and laugh for a while and drink my beer.

Good god....
B


My recommendations:

For 2 hours flight go with a power system running at high voltage, 12s and low current 5-10A, 15000mah should get you in the ballpark and be around $400 if you buy the stuff from HobbyKing.

[Mecha]

It is not all that crazy. I fly a 6' telemaster at 9lbs for 36min on 5000mah and 5s. The trick is to use the right prop and ensure your cruise is no more than 10A. I know that a more efficient airframe like a Wing could go for much longer fly time. BTW I used this airframe at the 2009 UAS competition so I am not BSing you.

Now, I am not talking about a cruising speed of 70 NM in 30 mph head winds. This is why I asked where was the UAV going to be used.

The University of Utah did a phenomenal job at the competition with a flying wing, two cameras, radio links telemetry, the works, that can fly for 2 hours (if I remember correctly)on 8000mah.

I am not sure what will it take to have a video TX capable of 20km in terms or weight, but judging that if you use the XPress Ethernet Bridge from Digi International it is very doable and not very heavy.

The beauty of today is that all the electronics are getting so small and powerful that what 6 month ago seemed far fetched it may be now possible. It is all about doing your research.

[Mecha]

Now, let’s also remember that jco223 did not go into any details of what type of mission he is going to do. Is he going to cruise the 20km during those 2 hours or is he making 10 round trips. And that he is asking for the minimum requirements to make this possible.

I have to agree with many of you that $4500 to get this project in the air is a little of a stretch.

[airmcn_3]

It is not all that crazy. I fly a 6' telemaster at 9lbs for 36min on 5000mah and 5s. The trick is to use the right prop and ensure your cruise is no more than 10A. I know that a more efficient airframe like a Wing could go for much longer fly time. BTW I used this airframe at the 2009 UAS competition so I am not BSing you.

Now, I am not talking about a cruising speed of 70 NM in 30 mph head winds. This is why I asked where was the UAV going to be used.

The University of Utah did a phenomenal job at the competition with a flying wing, two cameras, radio links telemetry, the works, that can fly for 2 hours (if I remember correctly)on 8000mah.

I am not sure what will it take to have a video TX capable of 20km in terms or weight, but judging that if you use the XPress Ethernet Bridge from Digi International it is very doable and not very heavy.

The beauty of today is that all the electronics are getting so small and powerful that what 6 month ago seemed far fetched it may be now possible. It is all about doing your research.


Tell us more about the Xpress modems

Size:
Weight:
Can you remove the unit from the case for small aircraft?
Does the Yagi come with the setup?

They look promising; I am thinking we might order a set for testing with IMU ATTO.

Thanks,

Chris

[Mecha]

One of the cool things on this type of radio is that it is ethernet, thus you can send the telemetry and video on the same line, eliminating the need for the Xbee or Xtend radios.

There are two main types of XPress the commercial and industrial.

some of the specs

Commercial (Indoor) Ethernet Bridge
Length: 5.5 in (14.0 cm)
Width: 3.4 in (8.5 cm)
Depth: 1.2 in (3.0 cm)
Weight: 5.64 oz (160 g)
Industrial (Outdoor) Ethernet Bridge
Length: 7.9 in (20.0 cm)
Width: 3.2 in (8.0 cm)
Depth: 2.1 in (5.5 cm)
Weight: 10.34 oz (293 g)

The case is plastic and it is removable. There is a metal plate inside that can be removed as well. There are some FCC stickers on the case that you need to keep if you remove the case.

There are 2 different type of set ups you can get, the point to point and the point to multipoint. The point to point you get 2 matching radios for $699 and this cannot be upgrade to add additional radios.

The point to multipoint, you can buy each radio $500 and can add as many as needed later on.

The Yagi antenna is not included but optional

8dbi $60 (needs an RPTNC connector)
10dbi $110
11dbi $70 (needs an RPTNC connector)
15dbi $125
RPTNC 1ft cable and connector $32

I hope this helps.

[Mecha]

A few more specs for those not familiar with this radio

Indoor/Urban range:
Up to 1000 ft (300 m) w/ 2.5 dB dipole antenna
Up to 2000 ft (600 m) w/ high-gain antenna
Outdoor line-of-sight range:
Up to 2 mi (3.2 km) w/ 2.5 dB dipole antenna
Up to 15 mi (24 km) w/ high-gain antenna (Yagi)
Transmit power output: 125 mW (21 dBm), 4 Watts EIRP w/ 15 dBi antenna)
Throughput data rate: 935 Kbps
RF data rate: 1.5Mbps
Receiver sensitivity: -97 dBm (@10e-4 BER)

[airmcn_3]

One of the cool things on this type of radio is that it is ethernet, thus you can send the telemetry and video on the same line, eliminating the need for the Xbee or Xtend radios.

There are two main types of XPress the commercial and industrial.

some of the specs

Commercial (Indoor) Ethernet Bridge
Length: 5.5 in (14.0 cm)
Width: 3.4 in (8.5 cm)
Depth: 1.2 in (3.0 cm)
Weight: 5.64 oz (160 g)
Industrial (Outdoor) Ethernet Bridge
Length: 7.9 in (20.0 cm)
Width: 3.2 in (8.0 cm)
Depth: 2.1 in (5.5 cm)
Weight: 10.34 oz (293 g)

The case is plastic and it is removable. There is a metal plate inside that can be removed as well. There are some FCC stickers on the case that you need to keep if you remove the case.

There are 2 different type of set ups you can get, the point to point and the point to multipoint. The point to point you get 2 matching radios for $699 and this cannot be upgrade to add additional radios.

The point to multipoint, you can buy each radio $500 and can add as many as needed later on.

The Yagi antenna is not included but optional

8dbi $60 (needs an RPTNC connector)
10dbi $110
11dbi $70 (needs an RPTNC connector)
15dbi $125
RPTNC 1ft cable and connector $32

I hope this helps.


Perfect! Thank you!