Pistachio Nieuport 11

[billystiltner]

Hey
I drew up some plans for a 16" WS Nieuport 11. I drew them up from drawings I found on the internet and some that were sent to me from FFML members.

The plans are for a 1916 D model. It is a little different than the 1915 C model. Most notable difference is the bottom wing tip taper and the fuselage tapers from top to bottom. Although I have seen models of the C model with fuselage taper and drawings with the taper I have received a set of scale drawings and model drawings that do not show the fuse taper. Weird.

My plans are not complete but I have enugh done to get started building an 8" model. I started out drawing the 16" model so I could scale and have the wood sizes change from 1/16" to 1/20" to 1/32" respectively on 16" WS, peanut,and pistachio models.

The plans in their current state are close to done The front view is incomplete. The side view has a few details missing like the rear wing struts and the aileron rods and machinegun. The curves are also a little rough I actually used a bunch of straight lines to trace the outline of the cuves and was messing with actually using curves and arcs with my drawing program today.
The curves and arcs make for a much smoother curves edge but it's less theraputic than sanding those rough edges. I'm not sure if I'll fix the cureves yet or not.

I am planning to do a detailed engine drawing and include the plans for the parts to put it together. A lot of plans I have seen have scant engine construction detail. I found a nice set of drawings for the N11 engine so I will utilize them. I spent a while on the drawings so I had enopugh done to get started building.

I guess I will finish the plans as I finish the plane. If anyone is interested in the plans in there current state I would be glad to mail them. You will have to split them up for printing because I plan on only doing that once for each size. I will probably do a sheet model RC version like Chris 3d has done the Pitts and micromoth.

I have drawn the wing,rudder and stab with both wet balsa formed laminated curves and curves that are cut out from printwood. So you can choose your favorite tip method.
I started to do the laminated wet balsa formed tips but kept snapping wood till I used ammonia. By that time I wanted to get to building(been wanting to build a pistachio and a Nieuport 11 for quite a while) and couldnt wait so I drew up some printwood for the tips and curves. I will probably try the lamination thing later.

Heres a picture of what I have built so far. The rudder was covered with 10.33g/m^2 lens cleaning tissue. I still havent seen Japanese Tissue but this tissue seems stronger than guillows model tissue and it barely shrunk when I done the preshrinking.
I used elmers purple gluestick and sprayed with krylon. Painted with testors model paint. I will probably redo the rudder because I covered both sides and they stuck together when I sprayed with krylon. Also the colors are reveresed for the N11. The wood is SIG balsa at 5.3 lb/ft^3. It's supposed to 1/32" but measures a little smaller with my measuring thingy. You can tell by the wood lines on the plans(1/32" strip). The stab looks a little uneven in the picture, It is uneven but not where its uneven in the picture or to the extent.

I plan on making working rudder ,elevator and ailerons maybe. All adjustable with the wires( I found some invisible thread at wallmart that seems to suit the size smaller and less expensive than 2lb test dissapearing monofillament ). Not sure if this is possible at pistachio scale but I'm sure going to try. If you have seen the ornithopter on a lifesaver on the aeronutz newslettter this month theres my inspiration to give a go at it.

Any tips, suggestions or comments are welcome.
I am still a newbie and this is my first pistachio
and first biplane free flight.

[billystiltner]

Here's a picture of the top wing on the building board(picture frame with glass). I decided to build on glass so everything would be straight. My regular building board is cork with posterboard over top all on a peice of luon. I figured I wouldnt need pins for this small wing. I used the aligator clips to hold stuff down. The saran wrap sticks to glass pretty good, that held the plans in place.

[billystiltner]

Here's a picture of the original tip I had cut out. I chose to use a much lighter technique for constructing the tips as shown there. I got the idea from a set of N11 plans someone sent me. I updated the plans to use this type of curved tips.

[billystiltner]

here is a picture of a rib I tried to reduce the weight of by cutting holes in it. I figured I might try this on the next model when I figure out where I'm going to put the spar. I have seen ribs that are 3 peices for pistachio models. An upper sliced rib a straight bottom peice and another straight vertical peice connecting the two at the highest point along the airfoil. I'm not sure how that type of rib will work with an undercambered under surface and spars. I am not sure if this wing need spars. It feels pretty tough. I used 9lb wood for the LE and TE. Again it's the SIG smaller than 1/32" wood. Does anyone know why SIG 1/32" sheets are less than 1/32". Is it maybe this batch of wood or something?
As shown in the above picture the wing weighs .22grams. I didnt check the density of the wood I cut the ribs from. Anyone want to guess how much weight it will gain with covering?

[T. Lyttle]

In my 55+ years of modelling, I built one only Pistachio, and I envy your eyesight and touch. I built a Rearwin, and its success was mediocre to a point where I realised it was beyond my capability; I envy and respect anyone who can master this category. :D Best of luck!

[moon]

Hi Billy
I am a member of the Free Flight Cookup group and I often participate there. Here, I am a "lurker" and don't often post. I must tell you that I was very impressed with your D-8, but this is outstanding! I have many questions for you. One, how did you cut the lightening holes in the ribs? Could you shed some light on those wing tips? I hope that you get a good flyer from this, but even if you don't your work is not in vain, this is great work.
Thanks for sharing the photos of your progress.
Kevin

[moon]

Hi again Billy
I have a tip that I picked up from John Ernst of the cook up group that may help solve your covering problem on your small rudder.

Take a sturdy piece of cardboard (I use a foam meat tray). Trace the outline of your rudder onto the cardboard or foam and cut it out a bit oversized...and 1/8 of an inch is fine. Don't worry about being to perfect.

Now, gluestick the perimeter of the hole and apply a piece of tissue to the cardboard. I lay the tish on a table top and press the foam firmly against it to adhere the tissue smoothly to my foam "frame". Let this dry for a few minutes.

Now you can spray the tissue with alcohol or H2o and pre shrink it. When that is completely dry, you can spray it with an airbrush or decorate it as needed. Lightly finish with Krylon.

When this has dried, gluestick your frame and carefully place it in the "frame" and press it into place. When the glue has dried, carefully cut it out and you will have a finished pre-shrunk tissue in place on your rudder ( or whatever part you cut the foam frame for). Much simpler to do than it sound and goes along rather quickly! I think there is a photo of the process in the FFCU groups "Tips and Tricks" Let me know if you need further explanation.

As you experiment with this, you will probably devise your own techniques to improve it. I typically use foam meat trays because they are easy to cut and I toss them away after a few uses. In addition, they are easily and quickly cut. Also, the krylon works best if lightly misted on (a couple of coats) but, if applied to heavily it will begin to attack the foam. Kinda helps me gauge how I'm spraying. I have covered fuselage sides in this method as well and some smaller wing bottoms for pnuts. I also cut the tissue a bit oversized to "wrap" around the edge of the frame so that it is covered also. HTH

Kevin

[billystiltner]

T. Lyttle

Thanks


Kevin

Thanks for the painting tips and D8 comments. I did shrink the tissue before covering but didnt think to do the krylon as well.

Here's a picture of the wingtips. Maybe the picture will shed light on how they were constructed. Much lighter than the original bulky tips in the above picture. You can see on the plans how there's 2 versions for the tips. 1 like I done. and another for those who wish to attempt to bend the curves in.

[billystiltner]

Here's a closeup of a wingtip

[billystiltner]

I only cut holes in 1 rib to test the strength.
This wing has solid ribs. I will try to draw some scaleish holes in the ribs on the plans and try cuttting them out in future models.
Here is a picture of some tools I use on small models.

Top - Tweezers from Swiss Army Knife.

top knife - blade from disposable razor blade cut to shape and inserted in split in wood handle and glued with duco with thread wrapped for strength. I painted some designs on this handle and even inlayed a moonstone that I faceted with dremel. I prettied it up because a friend seen a knife like the bottom one and said it looked like a prison shank. I use this knife for trimming tissue and when a full sized blade will not fit. I also use it for balsa where a normal blade will not fit.

middle and bottom knife - same construction as above but with alvin blades. I found the Alvin blades in the college bookstore. I think they are for cutting out templates. They had no handles for them so I made my own. This is what I cut the holes in the ribs with as well as all my small printwood.

[faif2d]

I just made a trip to Lone Star Balsa and was able to hand pick some wood. One thing that I noticed was that the lighter the 1/32 was the thinner it was. I think that the sander tends to suck in the soft sheets making them generally thinner. I got some that was all the way down to .024 thick and that was a real nice 5 lb sheet. There was some 14 lb stuff that was right at .032. This is the reason that most of the 1/32 purchased in the hobby shop tends to be of higher weight. My opinion your mileage may vary!
The model is stunning by the way. Do you get tired of holding your breath while you build?

[billystiltner]

I finished the lower wings last night and finally decided to add a spar to the top wing.
I had been contemplating for a couple days about the spar.
It really strengthened the wing up. I used a folded over peice of sandpaper to sand in the notches for the spar. I only broke 1 rib in the process. I figured more would break. I am not sure whether to put the spar marks on
the printwood for pre cuting them or to just say mark and sand after assmbling the rest of the wing. Some of the ribs didnt line up perfectly during construction and since they are so small when they were printed some that should have been the same size were smaller due to printer dithering.
Not much smaller maybe from 1/128" to 1/64" but that is quite a bit at this scale.
I am sure the wing will be fine after covering if I dont glue the tissue to the ribs.
Marking and sanding the ribs for a spar after construction is a delicate process. Maybe putting the marks on the printwood would be better then if some were slightly off after construction the notches could be corrected with a little sand paper and then filled with balsa dust and duco putty(I didnt bother with the putty on some notches that were slightly larger). Anyone have a lightweight putty suggestion?




faif2d

That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me.
I just hold my breath a little bit in a few places like the corner wingtips that will blow away if you breath on them. It's really not that bad. It helps to breath out the side of my mouth.
Thanks for the comments.

[moon]

Hi Billy
I don't know if this will help with your notching...You can cut all of your ribs and stack them and use a home made notching tool and notch them at the same time as they are stacked together. By doing it this way, they will all line up for you.
Many tools are fashioned from a strip of balsa of a desired thickness and sandpaper glued to it. There is a picture of one on the "How to build a peanut" or the "Nocal no tell" posts. Seeing it should help you come up with an improved design.

As for the putty question, I have read from Don Ross' book, diluted white glue and baby powder makes a putty..not crazy about putty but I have used it. I try to stick balsa in the gap and glue it in place. When dry I sand it down to the correct shape. I find this a better solution, and when finished you can't see it. I think it's lighter as well. Well I hope this helps, your first Pistachio is looking very nice. Thanks for updating us.
Moon

[billystiltner]

Will try to post some pics later I'm supposed to be studying now but checked my mail while printing some papers. Studying some interesting stufff about laminar flow in My Analysis of water distrubutions class. Might turn out to be useful information for small models as well as water pipes.

moon
Thanks for the tips I was about to post the same balsa strip with sandpaper thing.

And the balsa chunk putty you dont need dust for putty just chunks I like it. Balsa chunk putty - Much lighter than balsa dust putty.

[billystiltner]

Hey
Here's a picture of a fuselage side and one of the lower wings.

For the fuse I have since built the other one and added the rubber pin mount and a wide strip in front. I'll probably add some cross braces as the thing feels a bit flimsy. It might strengthen up when tissue is added.

I am not sure if the drawings I went by for the fuselage has the cockpit opening at the right size. its about 1.5 times larger diameter than on the 1915 C model. Also, the D model drawings did no show a position for the rear struts going from the cockpit to the wing and there's no windsheild. I might change the cockpit opening to the same size as the C model and put the struts in the same position. I would like to find a picture or another 3 view of the D model to reference. I am at the stage where I must choose this to go on building. I could go ahead and start on the cowl and engine as well as the details.

I think I am going to do the moveable ailerons on a larger model maybe the 16" wingspan one. The fuselage sides went together really easy.

The next part is where I ususally get sloppy. putting the fuselage sides together. I might make up some sort of jig this time. I might be able to just glue the tail together and then put in the front cross brace then fill in the cross braces.

The tweezers have really made handling the small parts easy. Using the picture frame bulding board has kept the thing straight. It's a lot easier to hold the parts down with coins than messing with all the pins. The coins do a good job of keeping things where you put them. I might start building peanuts like this also. It's a lot quicker as well.

I can see why people speak so highly of magnetic building boards.
I might try to make one up with some sheet metal and those rolls of magnetic tape you find in the craft section.

[billystiltner]

Here's a picture of all the stuff I have put together so far.

[billystiltner]

Here's a picture of the cowl. I cut out 2 circles from 3/32" wood and then cut them to shape for the front and back. Then I wrapped a peice of 1/32" balsa around and glued. I chose 3/32" for the front and back because the round edge of the front started about 3/32" from the front. I marked the circles on the sheet the same size as the cowl then layed up a peice of my 1/32" on edge and marked the difference and drew another circle.
Not all 1/32" sheets are the same width so by marking the diameter with the cowl diameter - sheet size *2 you get a cowl the correct size. It doesn't look like there's much room in the cowl for motor cylinders but I made sure they would fit before I started building. It might be too close a fit for having rotating cylinders.
Anyone got ideas on how to mount the cowl to the fuselage?
I have seen a few different techniques for this.

[billystiltner]

Front view of the fuse. It's a little warped. You can see the taper from top to bottom. Some plans leave this out. I'm not sure if all the N 11s were tapered. Actually I havent found any pictures of the model I am building. I am not even sure if Nieuport made the 1916 D model 11.

[billystiltner]

Another photo of the fuselage and cowl with a peeny for size reference.

[jernst]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by billystiltner
Anyone have a lightweight putty suggestion?
QUOTE]


Billy...I use ligtweight spackle compound. The stuff you use for patching drywall. The stuff is VERY lightweight and sands easily.

One drawback is the color - white. You need to add some color to the paste if you use it in large areas.

The N.11 looks wonderful BTW. Really nice job.

john ernst

[billystiltner]

I am still working on this thing. Since the last post I have covered the wings and the top and right side of the fuselage.
I have built 3 rudders. The first was a little different than the actual N11 rudder.

I have found out the drawing I was going by was a german drawing so it was probably a pre Seimens Schuckert D1 since it had the D designation thing. I found some actual SS D1 3 views so I will change the plans I have allready drawn to match the D1 then draw up some actual N11 plans.
I have already made changes to the rudder and fuselage that I built to make it like the N11. I will probably only have to change the wingtips and ribs and a few other things to convert the current plans to an N11.

On the rudder thing I built 3 because the 2nd one was destroyed by airbrush paint. I got the idea to thin my paint with alcohol. This is not a good idea if you use glue stick to attach tissue. I wonder if ammonia will loosen the gluestick? The alcohol was supposed to make the paint dry quicker. It did actually it made the paint dry as it came out the airbrush tip. This is not good. Maybe a little less alcohol and more water will work. On the 3rd rudder I preshrunk the tissue then sprayed it with krylon.
When I cut it from the frame to trim the tissue one side still sunk in. Maybe I need more coats of krylon I sprayed on something like 1.5 coats(how do you spray 1.5 coats you might ask well a partial misting + a full coat I guess)

I found out that If I leave the paint a little thick it goes on better than thinned paint on a kryloned surface.

Can you use thin paint on doped surfaces?

I tried thin paint and it blotched up or balled up on the rudder so I smothed it out with a brush. The paint worked fine on paper this is why I think the krylon had something to do with it.

It seems I can get a thinner coat of paint sprayed on if I mix the paint thick and use 20 - 30 psi vs thin paint and 10-20psi.
I am using delta ceramcoat for paint I know this is a cheap brand but I have read that you can get good results with any kind of paint if you can learn how to mix it. I used to airbrush t shirts, signs , and coal truck doors in my late teens. But thats way different than airbrushing tiny airplanes.


Maybe I'll post some pics soon my girlfriend has been using the computer for school.

[billystiltner]

Thanks John for the comments and putty technique.

I have maybe come up with a new hinge idea. for the rudder imagine a side ways u with straight edges or a staple made of small music wire(bottom electric guitar string) then on the fuselage on the main back where the rudder goes cut a tiny groove as wide as the diameter of the wire and as deep as the radius. Make the same kind of groove on a strip of 1/64" ply as wide as the width of the fuse end and about as long maybe 1/32" to 1/16" shorter. put the music wire staple in the groove with the staple ends sticking towards the rudder. glue the ply to the fuselage. Now the staple should swing back and forth like the rudder. Now attach the rudder to the music wire staple. To keep from splitting the rudder I guess you could pre drill some holes with a peice of sharpened music wire. Another way to do this would be to use a peice of wire insulation in place of the grovved wood. I couldnt find any wire insulation with a small enough diameter. A tiny syringe needle would work. I have heard of using syringe needles for thrust bearings on tiny 6" free flight planes.
Another way would be to use aluminum strip with both ends bent 90 degrees and a hole drilled for the rudder axle just like aluminum thrust bearings. I'm not sure of the lightest weight technique but would be glad to hear of other techniques for making hinged flying sufaces on scale like models that use adjustable flying surfaces. On this model I'm tring to make the rudder working with the flying wires. Not sure of a light weight solution for the other end to adjust the wires. I was thinking of making a hatch underneath and make a slit in a peice of ply to hold the wires the same kind of slit on sewing thread bobbins.

Again maybe I will post a picture of this soon.

Any ideas for the bent exhaust pipes on the 9cyl le rhone?
Also any ideas for making cooling fins on pistachio size cylinders?
For now I have just painted the fins on the cylinders but would like to have a more realistic effect. With this size cylinder thread would almost be scale size fins. I tried with invisible thread but it was too small and invisible. Maybe normal thread would work.
paper seems too tedius at this size.

[billystiltner]

Updated pictures.
The wings and stab have a coat.5 of krylon as well as the stablizer. The fuselage has the bottom uncovered till I get the wires installed. Rudder painted with Delta Ceramcoat applied with airbrush. Cowl painted with testors silver. I recently purchased some Delta silver and dont see much difference.

[billystiltner]

Here's the cowl and dummy engine. Still havent decided on how I'm going to mount the cowl and engine. Should I glue the cowl or to make it removeable? The engine looks pretty bad this close up I painted the cooling fins on and cant seem to get them straight.
I'm thinking of making a template and airbrushing the fins. It would be nice to come up with realistic looking fins. Maybe aluminum foil would work for this size. I have some wire insulation cut out for exhaust pipes. Maybe painted thread would be best for the valve rods or whatever the rods are on the 9cyl rotary. Painted with Testors silver acrylic applied with airbrush.

[billystiltner]

here's a picture of the rudder so you can tell whats going on in the next picture. The control horn is cut from popcicle stick wood its a little more than 1/64" thick. Nylon invisible thread for rigging. Probably a bit smaller than 2lb test as far as I can tell from looking at the 2lb test and remembering the size walking to the craft department from the fishing department at wally world.

[billystiltner]

Here's a closeup of the rudder. On the back of the fuselage is a dark peice of wood. It is 1/64" plywood with a groove cut in the side attached to the fuse. The fuse has a groove cut in it also vertically so that the music wire can pivit inside. You caqn barely see the staple shaped music wire coming out of either end of the ply and then inserted into the rudder. I kind of slipped up on the top insert and it came back out of the rudder. You can barely see it sticking through. The rudder actually turns.

[billystiltner]

You See!
I painted the rudder with Delta Ceramcoat applied with vega 2000 sideloading cup airbrush. I attached the tissue with Elmers purple gluestick. Thinned the paint with water. Actually I mixed the paint a bit thick and used 20 to 30 psi pressure. This let me get a thinner coat of paint on. The thinned paint just beaded up on kryloned tissue. Also dont use alcohol for thinner if you use glue stick to attach tissue. It will loosen the glue and your tissue will come loose.

[billystiltner]

Here is how the rudder control wires are attached in front. Its just a 1/64" ply horn monted onto a popcicle stick wood rod thats attached to anothewr peice of ply thats attached to a balsa cross member. The horn turns a little more easily than I had wanted I may have to whittle out another popsicle stick rod with a larger diameter or find some harder wood to use for the axle. Notice the tiny instrument panel. The photo shows it actually larger than it is so it looks better with the naked eye.

[billystiltner]

Heres another view of the mechanics of the working rudders flying wires installation. The guide with the holes in it is 1/64" plywood again. with a balsa brace attached to a peice of 1/16" balsa. I drilled 6 holes 2 for the rudder wires and 4 for the stabaliser wires. I think I am just going to glue the stabaliser wires on and if I need to add up elevator I'll just unglue and adjust. I am not actually going to make a hinge on the stab. I did make seperate flying surfaces on the stab but covered with one peice of tissue and glued the flying surfaces only on the ends and used one peice of balsa to coneect the 2 elevators instead of them being seperate. You might ask why in the world would I want to make a working rudder on a pistachio model well I wanted to see if I could do it for one. Another reason is practice for pistachio scale rc. Another reason is if I can get it to work with pistachio scale then peanuts and larger will be like a peice of cake. The whole fuselage weighs .6 grams as is. I dont expect this to be a very good flyer. I am not really good at flying models yet anyways. I'll probably test fly it a couple times then put it up till I get better at flying. I still havent flown my Fokker D8 yet. I have not decided on painting the thing yet. I mixed up some antique white paint and thought of painting it but I have heard not to dope a pistachio model and I have allready added krylon to the wings so Maybe I shouldnt paint it. I have a wonderful Peck 4" rubber prop to put on the thing when completed but it weighs around .9 grams if I remember correctly.
I might be better off making my own prop or shaving it down.

[billystiltner]

I decided to quit adding scale details and try to get the thing to fly.
A stock 4" Peck prop is too heavy. What's the best pitch and diameter to use on an 8" ws biplane? Gonna have to scrape away some weight from the plastic prop. glides look good with a .4g peice of blue tack for ballast. As is with rubber the ting weighs 2.6g so with a .4g prop it should come in around 3g
pretty heavy for pistachio scale airplane. The cowl is the heaviest part. without the cowl and landing gear the thing weighed 1.5g
I put the cowl on and that brought it up to 2.3g then the landing gear brought it up to 2.6g. I used 1/16" sheet for the interplane struts so I can get rid of a bit of weight there when I rebuild the thing and the axle is too big so Theres some weight reduction I have a peice of music wire going all the way through the axle I figure I can just put that on the ends. If I can get the thing flying I'll add more details like wheel covers and all the little detrails on the struts and rigging + the tail skid. Not sure about duration with a 3g pistachio anyone know? It might make a pretty good outdoor flyer. I guess I could get rid of the working rudder to shed some weight also. Now that I know I can do it I dont really care too much about having it on this plane. At least I know I can make one this small when I get rc gear for stuff this small.
Now if I can get it to fly. The whels just dont look right at all without some black paint do they?

[Fly_joy]

Looks great!

black sharpie marker will work well on the wheels - easier and lighter than paint.

[flailing]

Curved exhaust stacks, boil some spaghetti noodles until pliable then pin them down in the shape you want until dry.