What's the Biggest TD Contest You Have Flown?

[aeajr]

What's the largest thermal duration contest you ever attended?

Could be winch launched, hi-starts or even DLG. No motors, no slope.

This would be a single contest. I don't mean the AMA Nats where you have weeks of competition across all kinds of contests.

I mean most in a single day.

Tells us something about it. How was it run? What kind of gliders? What classes for pilots or planes?

[aeajr]

I will start.

My biggest single contest was an Eastern Soaring League contest hosted at my home club, the Long Island Silent Flyers. We had 41 registered pilots. :cool:

We flew unlimited sailplane with Expert, Sportsman and Novice classes. The format was Man on Man off 4 winches with landing points. It was a great event. Lots of activity and excitement with all those pilots and planes. :D

That was the biggest for me. However, we have one coming up this weekend that might beat it. We have 39 registered now, so there is a chance we could break 41 this weekend.

How about you?

[alstrahm]

Visalia Fall Fest, think they shut the entries off at 230, it's a blast
Allen

[ChuckA]

I have flown every Nats since 1974 except those when work schedule got in the way. I have also flown in the early Tangerine when it was second only to the SOAR Nats in size or importance. I also flew in every Visalia contest from 1993 through 2001. All the early ones were much more fun than the current Nats because we were all still learning and there was a lot of varity in pilots, models, and tasks flown.

[SmokinJoe101]

Visalia Fall fest Oct 1993 225 entries in open that was good for 22000 points LSF 5 contest points:eek: those were the days.

sj

[StevenatorLTFO]

Biggest one for me so far, was Unlimited at the nats, much less then the 200+ Visalia contests though :(

[aeajr]

Looks like we have quite a few guys who have attended the big events. Very cool.

Guess I could have made more categories, but I consider anything over 50 as BIG.

What were the formats?

How do you fly a contest with 200 pilots?

Open winch? retrivers?

How may rounds?

Anyone done a large event with hi-starts? How would that work?

I am really interested on how such contests work.

[tkallev]

Visalia and the CASL contest in Phoenix are call-up contests where everyone flies the task without regard to when you fly in the round. Problem with this format in a large pilot pool is that the pilot called to fly Round 1 at 8:00 AM is scored against the guy who gets called for Round 1 at 9:30 in distinctly different air. This is why MoM has become so popular. These contests usually have much shorter task times (especially in the early rounds) to reduce this effect on scores, but it is nevertheless an issue. Both Visalia and CASL usually have 4 or so winch stations with retrievers in order to move the rounds along.

Soaring Nats Unlimited and the World Soaring Masters (typically 100+ pilots) use a call-up format by flight group, scored MoM within the group. We try to fill 8-10 of the 12 winch stations to get a large group flying and use golf carts to retrieve. OVSS also runs MoM format.

The SOAR Nats (over 200 at it's peak attendance) used 12 standardized winches with retrieval by dirt bike. Typically we ran the 2 minute precision task first so that air conditions didn't have such an impact on the long time between the start and end of the rounds. Having 12 flight stations helped move the contest along as well.

For Nats Nostalgia the past few years, we did open winch within a time frame, usually an hour. We ran 4-5 winches and used golf carts to retrieve. We will return to flight group MoM at the 2009 NOS Nats event.

TNT in Dallas uses the same format, they have numbers between 30-70 depending on the year. Their winch trailers include retrievers.
The more rounds the better, why would people travel thousands of miles and spend their hard earned cash for 5-6 flights in a whole weekend?

One thing to be said about retrievers, you MUST have a winch staff who are well versed in the operation of the retriever or else you are asking for trouble. The more wind, the more "blow-back" on the retriever lines and you can possibly run out of line and tug the sailplanes off the tow.

Retrievers are only as effective as the people operating them.

Could you do a 50+ contest with hi-starts? Sure, but if you fly MoM, make sure the pilots and/or helpers have strong arms while you wait for everyone to get ready :D

Open winch with 100+ pilots could become unmanageable with all the sandbagging that could take place with a sudden rush to the winches when the air got good ... would not recommend that :eek:

tk

[tonyestep]

"Could you do a 50+ contest with hi-starts? Sure..."
=============
In fact, in the old old days, the FAI event (what is now the F3B event) was flown from hi-starts. Each competitor had his own, and you set them out wherever you want, unlike today's F3J or F3B events where there is a designated line. It was a bit chaotic, but it worked out. At the U.S. team trials there were about 100 pilots who had qualified for the finals through two rounds of regional flyoffs, and we had a huge but hard and dusty field outside Denver. Hi-starts were running all over the place. Then as now, it was the speed event that separated the winners from the also-rans. Flying speed from a hi-start in light wind is a real test of pilot expertise.

[aeajr]

Great posts! Terriffic information about how different contests have been run over the years.

MOM with 10 winches must be awesome with a plane going up every 15-20 seconds. Or do you do mass launches and hope the planes don't hit?

[jirvin_4505]

Flew in my biggest contest recently. LSF nats at Jerilderie Astralia.

66 plus pilots MOM 10 minutes duration in 12 min working time - spot landing using winches flying mono line.

Pilots organized into teams of 4-5 flyers. Pilots provide their own winch's and due to team arrangements helpers are available to manage line retrieval.

Points deducted if launch occurs without line retriever at turn around.

13 pilots up at a time for MOM scoring. Fly off at end of comp to determine grand champion.

A video walk down the flight line posted here....
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12421123&postcount=70

cheers jeff

[Ray Hayes]

Tom,

_____________________________________________

For Nats Nostalgia the past few years, we did open winch within a time frame, usually an hour. We ran 4-5 winches and used golf carts to retrieve. We will return to flight group MoM at the 2009 NOS Nats event.
_____________________________________________


I hope this is accurate and not a typo that should read 2010, it is not what others have describe. I'm hoping 2009 MOM is correct. :)



Ray
Sky Bench ... Woodys Forever
http://www.skybench.com

[ChuckA]

Tom,

_____________________________________________

For Nats Nostalgia the past few years, we did open winch within a time frame, usually an hour. We ran 4-5 winches and used golf carts to retrieve. We will return to flight group MoM at the 2009 NOS Nats event.
_____________________________________________


I hope this is accurate and not a typo that should read 2010, it is not what others have describe. I'm hoping 2009 MOM is correct. :)



Ray
Sky Bench ... Woodys Forever
http://www.skybench.com


Glad I didn't enter Nostalgia this year. It was the one event at the Nats that was still fun. I have entered RES and Unlimited this year but Nostalgia was separated by two days of 2-meter and I am not going to make my driver (wife) set through two days in a motel with nothing to do.

This will may be the last year I enter the Nats. It just isn't as much fun anymore. I have entered every Nats since 1974 except for the years I couldn't get off from work long enough. I did miss last year because my wife had open heart surgery the day they started flying 2-meter but I did enter.

[tkallev]

I hope this is accurate and not a typo that should read 2010, it is not what others have describe. I'm hoping 2009 MOM is correct. :)
Ray

In the past few years, we ran HLG on the 600x600 and NOS over near Stage Center on the same day and we did not have the infrastructure/workers to run multiple impounds needed to pace a MoM event. Yes, the open winch was more in tune with the NOS concept, but there have been many asking for MoM NOS. At one point, around 2006, I did float the idea to run NOS Nats off hi-starts, but it was argued down. That could have been fun to watch:eek:

With the move of HLG to the end of Soaring and overlapping the first two days of Electric, we will run NOS on the 600x600 as MoM flight groups using the LSF winches.:D

Chuck, I'm sorry that we can't please everyone but most Nats attendees are there for the competition and enjoy the structure, pace and drama of a MoM event. It is the Nationals, after all. Might I suggest you attend some of the "Woodcrafter-esque" meets that have sprung up in recent years, these formats are probably more to your liking. ;)

tk

[tkallev]

MOM with 10 winches must be awesome with a plane going up every 15-20 seconds. Or do you do mass launches and hope the planes don't hit?

At the LSF Nats, we separate the launches so each pilot is about halfway up (or more, depending on crosswinds) before the next is released. Mass launches can be cool, F3J is great fun to watch, but due to the wide range of pilot experience in an open registration event, it is far safer to launch one at a time than to amp up the drama with a mass launch. :eek:

Safety is our #1 priority, Fun is #2.

OVSS events typically launch in the same manner as well.

tk

[aeajr]

I have flown two styles at Eastern Soaring League contests.

1) flight groups of 8-12 who had to launch from open winches within a 10 minute window. Fun, but some groups got windows of bad air and some got good air. All groups were scored together for the round.

2) Man on Man from 3-4 winches.

I like MOM much better. Seems to be much more equitable. I have won 10 minute round with 6 minutes and crushed the others because we were in bad air but I made the best decisions.

I have lost 10 minute rounds with 7:55 because we launched in good air. But that seemed fair too.



Landing points -

Do you normalize,then add landing points as a bonus?

OR

Do you include time and landing points and then normalize?

How did the big contests do it?

[tkallev]

FAI rules add landing to flight score and then normalize (1000 points max). LSF Nats and OVSS make the landing a true BONUS, so the flight score is normalized and the landing is then added (1100 points max).

I think it was Daryl P. who noted that it's much harder to gain on the leaders when both are normalized together a la FAI rules.

tk

[StevenatorLTFO]

At the LSF Nats, we separate the launches so each pilot is about halfway up (or more, depending on crosswinds) before the next is released. Mass launches can be cool, F3J is great fun to watch, but due to the wide range of pilot experience in an open registration event, it is far safer to launch one at a time than to amp up the drama with a mass launch. :eek:

Safety is our #1 priority, Fun is #2.

OVSS events typically launch in the same manner as well.

tk


The OVSS contests I got to last year (Cinci, Fort Wayne, St. Louis, Chicago, the Nats, and the Fall round up) all had staggered launches as you described. Dayton had a mass launch at their OVSS contest.

If I am going to skip an OVSS contest this year, it will probably be Dayton, for just that reason.

Steve

[StevenatorLTFO]

FAI rules add landing to flight score and then normalize (1000 points max). LSF Nats and OVSS make the landing a true BONUS, so the flight score is normalized and the landing is then added (1100 points max).

I think it was Daryl P. who noted that it's much harder to gain on the leaders when both are normalized together a la FAI rules.

tk

With the landings in the normalized score, the winner of a group, cannot make up any ground of the winner of the higher flight groups. With the scoring the other way, there is some potential to gain ground, if the winner of the flight group makes his time, but blows his landing.

[Ray Hayes]

The OVSS contests I got to last year (Cinci, Fort Wayne, St. Louis, Chicago, the Nats, and the Fall round up) all had staggered launches as you described. Dayton had a mass launch at their OVSS contest.

If I am going to skip an OVSS contest this year, it will probably be Dayton, for just that reason.

Steve


Idea ...

How about a congenial e mail campaign to Jerry Shape letting him know the majority may not care for Dayton's Mass launch. Last time I flew Dayton OVSS, it was not a mass launch. Dayton's club has a good field and needs OVSS support. The Cinnci club died, please, let's keep Dayton alive and well.

Ray
Sky Bench ... Woodys Forever
http://www.skybench.com

[Ray Hayes]

____________________________________________
With the move of HLG to the end of Soaring and overlapping the first two days of Electric, we will run NOS on the 600x600 as MoM flight groups using the LSF winches.
____________________________________________


Wonderful .... Great News :)

I wonder how many knew NOS was MON before the entry cutoff date ??

I wonder if more wouild like to sign up for NOS now that MOM has been announced ??

I think Jim Deck has a relatively recent post stating NOS was going to be Open Winch. But, I could be wrong about that.

Ray
Sky Bench ... Woodys Forever
http://www.skybench.com

[OVSS Boss]

Ed,
I have been lucky to fly at almost all the major venues in the USA; Visalia, Pheonix, Tangerine, CASA, the Nats, F3J Rockies, Team Trials, the Masters, etc. All are different and all are fun, I wish I could have a year that would be like the movie Endless Summer (about surfing but it would be soaring and fishing for me). Much like TK, my favorite format is MOM, but there are places that MOM is just not practical, but when it is, that is the way.

Marc

[StevenatorLTFO]

Idea ...

How about a congenial e mail campaign to Jerry Shape letting him know the majority may not care for Dayton's Mass launch. Last time I flew Dayton OVSS, it was not a mass launch. Dayton's club has a good field and needs OVSS support. The Cinnci club died, please, let's keep Dayton alive and well.

Ray
Sky Bench ... Woodys Forever
http://www.skybench.com

Ah, the voice of reason! Yes, I'll send an email to Jerry, to see if that is in the plans for this year.

Steve

[Kenny Sharp]

The biggest contest I have attended had close to 100 competitors.
Large contests may be filled with the best tallent (and that is a good thing), but large contests can be a grind as well.
With so many pilots, sometimes the wait between flight groups was enormous. I once waited for almost 2 hours between flights.

I have found that I like around 40-50 pilots for a contest.....The flight groups can keep moving along, and there is enough time between rounds for repairs or refreshment.

Small contests can have their drawbacks as well. With 10-15 competitors, things can seem a bit hectic regarding getting ready to fly. Under these conditions, I think open winch is the way to go.

[rdwoebke]

I don't mean the AMA Nats where you have weeks of competition across all kinds of contests.

Why does the Nats not count in your question?

I guess I am similar to most of the guys replying. I have been to several contests with more than 50 pilots. Probably the biggest contest I have been to was the 1998 Unlimited Nats. I flew my Gentle Lady. I think there were over 100 contestants. I have also flown 3 IHLGFs and each of them had over 50 pilots. And in the late 1990s the hand launch nats were 50+ contestants and I flew that in 96, 98,99, 00, 01, and 02 (01 and 02 were sub 50 contestants).

But Nats unlimited, Visalia, SWC, etc. are all 2 day contests. Largest single day contest in the US could be the Nats RES. Over 70 registered this year (including me).

Ryan

[aeajr]

Well, if you add up all the various NATs contests for glow and gas and electric and gliders and 3D and indoor and free flight and all, that is thousands of people. That was not what I was looking for.


If you are flying in the RES contest at the NATs and there are 70 people involved, that certainly counts.

[jerryshape]

My buddy Mark Gellart gave me a call today telling me about this thead on RC Groups about mass launches at DARTS contests. I am here to tell you that I haven't done anything but staggered launches for the last five years aleast and would contend that we never really did do a mass launch. We use to give a 1-2-3 launch but you had 15 seconds to launch. A simple check with pilots on each side of you to see if they launch right away or hang back would space out launches. I am never there on Sat contests due to work so I am not 100% sure how they are run but will pass along any concerns. DARTS in Dayton Oh have run more MOM contests than any club I know of. I have been a member over 20years and they where doing it before I got there. We use 7 closely matched winches and one of the better and challenging fields that I have been to. WE do our best to put on a good contest.

Jerry Shape jshape@embarqmail .com