tugboat prices

[dnchvs]

is it just me or does anyone else think the prices for the douglas greg parts are really expensive
i need the cap rails but there too expensive
a lot higher than the old hartman catalog prices

[woodybob]

Piece by piece the DG will cost ya close to $1400.00, :eek: They don't list the kit price anymore. Is this the beginning of the end for the Hartman Douglas Greg?

[der kapitan]

The Douglas Greg would have seen its end when Hartman passed away, except that fortunately, the business was purchased by Loyalhanna, who has re-issued it. ;)

There are a lot of parts in that kit, and each one has to be laid up and molded by hand, then cleaned up and packaged. :p

That amounts to a lot of labor and materials. If the modeler had to do that work, then put a value to it, I wonder what the price would be then---? :D

[gpzy]

The Douglas Greg would have seen its end when Hartman passed away, except that fortunately, the business was purchased by Loyalhanna, who has re-issued it. ;)

There are a lot of parts in that kit, and each one has to be laid up and molded by hand, then cleaned up and packaged. :p

That amounts to a lot of labor and materials. If the modeler had to do that work, then put a value to it, I wonder what the price would be then---? :D

Other wise known as the end of The Douglas Greg :D

[avidjeepr]

It may cost a bit, but I am happy with my investment in the D.G.
It makes me happy just looking at it. :D :D
On the other hand, other expensive kits I've owned make me sick.
Whatever floats yer boat. ;)

[Aerominded]

Cap rails??? those are easy and could be made yourself with $20 worth of materials- (with maretials left over for future projects!)

[woodybob]

is it just me or does anyone else think the prices for the douglas greg parts are really expensive
i need the cap rails but there too expensive
a lot higher than the old hartman catalog prices

Yep, a buck and a quarter does seem expensive to me.

Hartman Model Boats used to list a kit in the $600.00 range. Looks like they are selling it in parts now.

[norgale]

What ever happened to model "BUILDING" where you made your own stuff? How come everything has to be premade? Gimme a block a wood and I'll make ya a capstan. Pete

[der kapitan]

Thanks Pete, I was thinking the same thing---. :o

You can buy just the hull, and scratchbuild the rest. ;)

What's so hard about that? :p

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Thanks Pete, I was thinking the same thing---. :o

You can buy just the hull, and scratchbuild the rest. ;)

What's so hard about that? :p


Aww heck, scratch built the whole thing. :)
I have two hulls under contstruction... :p

[norgale]

Building the hull is the most gratifying part and the most fun to do. I like rigging sailing ships too. Just jump right in there dnchvs and get your feet wet.
So watcha building Umi? Pete

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Building the hull is the most gratifying part and the most fun to do. I like rigging sailing ships too. Just jump right in there dnchvs and get your feet wet.
So watcha building Umi? Pete

The Damen 2810, and the Mighty Servant 3...
But I am only spending one day a week on them...
:o

[toesup]

is it just me or does anyone else think the prices for the douglas greg parts are really expensive...


If you look at the parts as just an 'item', then "yes", they are expensive..

However, if you look at the cost, time and effort put in to that 'item' to produce it, then it is reasonably priced.

Having started (some months ago) on building a hull from foam and glass (Plug, Mold, Hull) i now realise how much time and effort goes in to producing a glass hull.
For example, even though i started this project some months ago, and have probably spent 100's of hours on it already (4 hours today, filling and rubbing down) and I'm STILL only at the plug stage.. no Mold, no Hull.

I'm not doing this as a buisiness, but it certainly gives me some appreciation of what goes in to producing a glass hull.

If you dont like the expense, then try making it yourself...

[tim slocum]

This subject comes up from time to time. This is just my opinion mind you, but if your looking for something inexpensive, LH is not the place to look. There I said it. How many threads has there been about this? So, it doesnt surprise me that the price of the Douglas Greg went way up after LH took it over. In fact, as soon as I heard they where taking it over, I was tempted to say it would happen,but I decided to wait and see it happen first. Didnt someone post last year about how they purchased a tug and the same tug at LH was twice the price. Someone was going to look into it and .....nothing. Now thats the bad news, the good news is they have a wide variety of good products, some that are impossible to find elsewhere. I get my model RR stuff for between 15-50% off retail, thank goodness ,because I can do allot more with my money.

[rlboats2003]

The pricing structure was developed to do 1 important thing, only after the following 2 things were completed.

a) to identify the actual times and material cost for accurate pricing
b) to perform this task across 2-3 complete sets of parts

Here is how things were thought out at Hartman Model Boats a division of Loyalhanna Dockyard and is part of the Loyalhanna Family of Products (it is not owned by Loyalhanna Dockyard)

If you take the hull, the cabin pack and the plans that almost comes out to the orginal kit price advertised by HBM. With this group you have the basic tug the plans provide templetes for a wooden or plexglass deck.
You the builder now have choices, You can still purchase the Hartman parts you want for your tug or make or purchase you own. In fact the plans provided, give enough infomation that you could build many of these pieces. It also allows you to make your tug unique - you may want a different life boat, vents and stack. The ala cart pricing provides the customer with the flexibility of only purchasing what they desire.

Please also note that in the description that Kit pricing is available please call or e-mail.

The reality is that a deck and caprails take almost the exact amount of work as to layup a Greg hull - or the cabin set, but with the price increase comes product that is of better quality then before. If material cost (particulary resin and gelcoat) don't have another significant increase the prices should stay the same for quite a while. The price increases came after a week of reviewing manufactuing and materinal information based on several builds - it was not done lightly!

Just trying to explain something that people don't want to hear,

Rich

[der kapitan]

Just trying to explain something that people don't want to hear,
Rich
I hear you Rich, and I did comment briefly on that earlier in this thread. ;)

Material costs have been a factor with my own business as well, especially the gelcoat, and Loyalhanna/Hartman acquires its resins from the same suppliers as I do. :p

Presently, costs have remained stable, but with the economy being where it is, there is no telling where the prices will go tomorrow---. :o

[norgale]

I understand what Rich is talking about but I would think that once the mold is built many hulls can be made with it. So the first hull is expensive but subsequent hulls should bring the price down considerably but it doesn't. Pete

[norgale]

The Damen 2810, and the Mighty Servant 3...
But I am only spending one day a week on them...
:o

Umi how do you cut those frames out so perfectly? They do look great. Pete

[rlboats2003]

We have the hartman molds - we have been fixing molds and cleaning up surfaces. The pricing was developed from 3 production runs. That was after all the bugs were worked out. The lost units material and time I have paid for out of my pocket -- the curent price is the cost of time, materials and something called profit (not as much as you may think) but enough to keep the business going and help the purchase of things for new releases which are starting to show up on the HMB web page. (There are 3-4 more in process for 2009) That is how the pricing is based. The price is the price, and for those who have had the chance to hold a HMB hull in their hands I beleive that individual would say the quality of the molding is very good to excellent.

I really think that is all I can say at this point - you as the consumer of the product have to make a decesion, is the Product worth the Price. Finally, if there is a North American Prototype Watercraft that you would like to see a hull/model of please send and e-mail via the addresses on the website because I keep a tally of what is being looked for.

Happy modeling,
Rich

[green-boat]

I had spoke with Dwight before he passed away on this very thing. Dwight was having problems with suppliers shipping in small quantities smaller than 55 gallon drums. Along with that prices were increasing by leaps and bounds, remember when copper was $4 a pound, and add onto that hazmat shipping charges for the stuff. It got to the point where Dwight had to get the resin out of state because nobody near him would carry it anymore. He had always used Polyester Resin but was starting to think about Epoxy resin due to the cost and fees associated with Polyester resin.

I know it was a tough decision in what Rich had to do but you can't sell a product for less than what you've got in it and expect to stay in buisness for very long.

[der kapitan]

I had spoke with Dwight before he passed away on this very thing. Dwight was having problems with suppliers shipping in small quantities smaller than 55 gallon drums. Along with that prices were increasing by leaps and bounds, and add onto that hazmat shipping charges for the stuff.

I know it was a tough decision in what Rich had to do but you can't sell a product for less than what you've got in it and expect to stay in buisness for very long.

Phil, you've caught the gist of it.

Shipping costs are such that Loyalhanna and I submit resin orders jointly, and split the amount to save at least some money. ;)

That, and conferring with each other on more efficient production methods, and waste reduction, helps keep us both afloat---. :)

[crowman17]

The wait is finally over and I drove up to New York last Monday and got my Douglas Greg from Loyalhanna Dockyard. After speaking with Don and Rich at Toledo, and hearing of the pride they have in their products, I feel that the quality of the pieces with the gel coat on them is worth the cost which isn't out of line with other kits of this size. It appears that you will get your money's worth. It is also great that this is an American made product by a craftsman. I am totally satisified with the product. The support from Loyalhanna is also considered in that if I need anything Don said to just call and he will help in any way. The Douglas Greg looks to be a great boat to build and will provide many years of enjoyment for me and my son. That's my opinion.

Marc :)

[avidjeepr]

Another satisfied customer. :D

Great choice, you will be happy with it.. :D

[Aerominded]

...the curent price is the cost of time, materials and something called profit (not as much as you may think) but enough to keep the business going...

Too many well intentioned boat companies have gone out of business for not doing that basic math...

[norgale]

I was looking at the kits on the Blue Jacket website today and I was surprised at the prices. I know they make some very nice and highly detailed kits and I'm not complaining about the prices but I was surprised at how they have gone up. The cheapest one was $130 or so I think and they want $1500 to make the kit for you. Must cost a lot to heat the place in the winter. Pete

[gpzy]

Time is money. Labor is the most expensive part of any job.

[woodybob]

Not always...

[norgale]

Yes I know labor is most expensive but look here, that's a lot of money for a little kit like this. This is an ensign level kit (is that like a Knuckle dragger) so is supposedly an entry type and very easy to build. Maybe it's the wood too. I do know that wood is getting very expensive anymore.
This kit is $155 and they will build it for you for $1300. It's only 12" long. Shows ya what your lobster boat is worth--plenty. Pete

http://www.bluejacketinc.com/2006/redbaron.jpg

[frankg]

:) I think that I would have to side with Loyalhanna as for their pricing structure. With the cost of the materials tied into the cost of crude oil , from which the products are made, you are at the mercy of the oil companies just like you are at the GAS pump.

The other thing the consumer has to under stand is that they are in BUSINESS, and as such are entitled to make a profit on their investment. The one thing that everyone forgets is that this is a supply and demand, and with the limited number of hulls produced in the year, there is no real way to cut cost through volume.

Also, with Loyalhanna being a owner operator operation, he does not fall under the offices of the EPA, if he is the one doing all the work. I think this was one of the reasons for PRATHER and DUMAS to give up their fiberglass work, since they had workers on the payroll which put them under the EPA jurisdiction.

Finally, the modeler has to be the one to decide weather the model he or she is buying is built better than they could do, and is the savings in time worth the monies paid out for the project. :)

[norgale]

I wouldn't put the EPA on anybody including my worst enemy if I had one. They cost my old employer millions of dollars and me my old job not to mention all the little business they ruined and the people they put out of work. In my opinion they are number two on the idiot list just behind the SEC. pete

[der kapitan]

Microglass and Loyalhanna have had no problems with EPA or OSHA, in that we are both independent owner-operators, hence outside their regulations. :p

Our problem is keeping our prices ahead of costs while still being able to make a profit. If there is no financial gain, why bother---? :rolleyes:

If you think a manufacturer's prices are too high, then don't buy their product---. ;)

Make it yourself, if you can---. :D

[Aerominded]

"Make or buy"... maybe not a matter of "can"- Sometimes it's best not to reinvent the wheel... ;)

[Kmot]

Maybe the model boat kit makers should adopt the car selling method. You know, you walk into a dealer and the first question is "what monthly payment can you afford?"

So maybe the website for the model boat should open with a window that asks "What monthly payment can you afford for our boat kits?" :D :p :D

[der kapitan]

I wouldn't put the EPA on anybody including my worst enemy if I had one. They cost my old employer millions of dollars and me my old job not to mention all the little business they ruined and the people they put out of work. In my opinion they are number two on the idiot list just behind the SEC. pete
OSHA! you forgot OSHA, Pete---. :eek:

If you're going to list the government's most counterproductive and generally useless agencies, they MUST be included---. :p

And speaking of worthless and ineffective, don't forget FEMA---. :rolleyes:

By the way, your tax dollars at work---. ;)

[Aerominded]

Hee hee, Payment plan! ;) I like my hulls made in USA- and I like that my friends in NY and elsewhere feel they are compensated fairly for them! :)

[CG Bob]

OSHA! you forgot OSHA, Pete---. :eek:

If you're going to list the government's most counterproductive and generally useless agencies, they MUST be included---. :p

And speaking of worthless and ineffective, don't forget FEMA---. :rolleyes:

By the way, your tax dollars at work---. ;)

An old definition of the USCG was that hard nucleus around which the Navy formed itself in time of war or other disaster. ;)

The new version is the USCG is the hard nucleus around which the Dept. Of Homeland Security formed, and absorbed Customs, Border Patrol, TSA, FEMA, Immigration, and Secret Service. :cool:

[frankg]

:) CG BOB- with that much under the Coast Guards belt you should have room for a short handled broom to sweep up with. :eek:

[dnchvs]

though i was just lookin at dwights old catalog i found ...caprail prices...$10.50
hull $120 not sure how he ever made any money

[toesup]

though i was just lookin at dwights old catalog i found ...caprail prices...$10.50
hull $120 not sure how he ever made any money

What date was that?

[norgale]

der Kapitan.
You can say what you want about OSHA but their rules are good for the workers even though they,the rules, cost the contractor extra money. In 1973-4 I was the safty inspector for the Deltona Corp. on Marco Island. We were up to the 10th floor of the Tradewinds highrise when one morning I went to do an inspection on the building. On the seventh floor we had stucco men working on the outside of the building and on the balconys at each apartment. I had the OSHA book with me and it said that any man working on the outside of the building or near an unfenced opening in the building had to be wearing safty belts and be tied off securly to the building with an approved rope and clamps or some such device to keep him from falling very far if he tumbled off the building.
Now a lot of the guys didn't like wearing the safty gear because it did get in their way but the rules were the rules so when they saw me coming onto the property the word went out and hard hats and other safty gear suddenly appeared.
On the seventh floor I inspected every mans safty belt and every tie line to be sure it was in good condition and secured to the building. I got a lot of ribbing doing this work but the guys at least wore the equipment when I was in the building. Everything looked good and every man was tied off properly.
I left the building and ten minutes later I walked into my office and my boss was there and said"Get the poleroid and lets go".
I grabbed the camera and jumped into his Blazer and off we went like a bat out of hell. Col. Bill, my boss, said "somebody just fell off the Tradewinds and we have to go and take pictures and make a report". I told him I had just left there and everything was fine.
When we got there a man was lieing dead on the ground and when I got close enough I could see it was one of the stucco guys that I had just been inspecting and talking to a few minutes earlier. He fell when he got up from stuccoing a balcony pillar and disconnected his tie line, turned to move to the the next pillar and slipped and fell seven stories ,bounced off a concrete mixing machine head first and then hit the gound. Very little blood so he died instantly leaving a wife and two little girls without a husband or a father.
The company,the subcontractor,I and my boss were absolved of any responsability because an inspection had been made and no infractions were sited. The guy's line got in his way so instead of moving it around he disconnected it and down he went. The rest of the men working in the area were witnesses during the OSHA investigation and they backed up my report even though they had never seen it or knew about it.
To this day almost 40 years later I still look at construction sites when I can and notice violations of the OSHA rules that could and sometimes do cause severe injury or death to workers but now I can't do anything about it. It's a damned shame that workers don't take these safty rules seriously. Until they get hurt that is. Pete

[x-spectator]

Here is a sample submitted by A-37 on the Winter's Project Hartman Tug thread, from 1977.

Using an inflation calculator (on the web), $1.00 in 1977 would be approximately $3.61 in 2009 dollars.

Imagine that the total kit cost in 1977 was $100. That would be $361 for the kit today.

It is easy to assume that the kit should cost ~$360.00 today. However, this calculation fails to adjust for the actual cost of fiberglass materials in 2009 and the labor charges incurred in today's dollars. Adjusting for this, the realized price today would be quite a bit higher.

In a similar vein, materials cost considerably less in 1977 and the labor charges were modest in comparison to today's wages. Taking this into consideration, it doesn't seem too hard to imagine that Dwight made a modest profit. Clearly he did because he made DG hulls for ~30 years.

[dnchvs]

toesup
the hatrman catalog is dated3/19/07
actually the cap rails are 10.89
complete kit was 370.00

[Aerominded]

Wow, dnchvs! complete kit at that price in '07, Mr. Hartman was running a charity! That is almost a give away price when you factor in all of the above discussion!

[dnchvs]

microglass has some great prices also

[woodybob]

This is from a Hartman R/C 1997 catalog, updated as of 12-15-97.

[Aerominded]

I totally agree, re Microglass...

but when you look at the contents of the "kit" in WB's attachment, for the effort and the content, $370 was an "amazing value"...

[der kapitan]

Wow, dnchvs! complete kit at that price in '07, Mr. Hartman was running a charity! That is almost a give away price when you factor in all of the above discussion!
Aero, you have it just about right in that Dwight was selling at giveaway prices---. :eek:

You can't maintain a business that way for too long, and still have the lights on---. ;)

[rlboats2003]

First, let me say I have the highest regard for Dwight Hartman, even though I never even met him. Like I said in my introduction on the HMB website he was a hobby nut and in my book that is not a bad thing. I cherish having the Clayton Thoms and Diane in my Basement and in the near future they will be in Our House's Nautical Room, when they don't show up at shows at the HMB booth.
Let's talk about the 2007 catalog while looking at some background - Dwight sold the business (I don't know the contractual specifics but he was suppose to get royalities or something form the new manufactuer) in I beleive either late 2003 or 2004 to Steve Larid and then he retired from the business. In I beleive June of 2006 all the molds showed up on his front poarch one night and the demise of that manufacture is well known. This is what I heard from a close personal friend that we worked during our move of the business. I also learned that Dwight made some bad personal investments and his retirement monies were greatly reduced. So Dwight went back to work, making hulls with his revised 2007 prices "to get back into the business" after the business suffered from the 1.5 year legeacy of the former manufacturer's stuff that was sold. Dwight (and I assume this) then needed to get back his damaged customer base and by the time the base started to come back he was almost at the end of his life. Dwight needed to support himself and he lived, based on a review of his house, a modest life style. (would have love to have taken most of his funiture home with me, if you like antiques) The major parts of his estate were the house and contents, Hartman Fiberglass, and the auction of his model railroad buildings rolling stock and engines. Personally, I felt sad seeing all this being spread to the wind and how so much was just being thrown in a dumpester.

Based on seeing and finding out the above I have to come to the conclusions Dwight was selling at give away prices - he was trying to get his customers back and live.

Happy Modeling,
Rich

[der kapitan]

That comes up as a sad story, Rich. I hadn't realized how much damage that idiot, Steve Lillard, had done to Hartman's stature and reputation---. :o

At least, despite setbacks, the Hartman line is making a comback. ;)

[green-boat]

I'd still like to know just who/ how those molds found thier way back to Dwights.

[der kapitan]

Lillard dropped them off in the middle of the night, after finally realizing he could never be a glassman to match Dwight's expertise. ;)

Some days later, he did himself in---. :eek:

[green-boat]

Lillard dropped them off in the middle of the night, :
That's your story and your sticken' to it, Huh :rolleyes:

[dnchvs]

same story i heard from dwight

[Aerominded]

Some days later, he did himself in---. :eek:

Guess he took not being a good 'glassman hard then?

[dnchvs]

i have one of those hulls ..for sale....took a lot of hours to make a good hull filling tons of pinholes and air pockets..good thing i do auto body for a living

[rlboats2003]

Again from the long time personal friend of Dwights, who actually went in the back door of the house and asked if he saw all the stuff on the front porch and they both went out and looked at it and this person help Dwight move the molds to the basement, that is the story. Dwight was informed I think from SL dad that he was no longer on this earth. Again that is the story that was related to me. For me it was a day of mixed emotions - happy about having the business but sad about moving out some ones pride and joy. I didn't take all the pictures of his area that were posted to be mean, but if ever asked again what it looked like I can post them anytime. It has been over a year now with the business in WNY. I think we have taken this as far as we can discussing the last year of Dwights life - Look at the bright side - he did what he enjoyed almost to the very end, and as Forest Gump would say,"that's all I have to say about that".

Happy Modeling
Rich

[Aerominded]

...he did what he enjoyed almost to the very end

Most enviable! Can't have a better life than that-




Hope to buy a boat from you soon, RL-