Airplane on a treadmill Concept #2

[HX3D014]

This is a rewording of the question to remove any (paradoxical phenomenon) confusion from the original question.

Concept #2
The treadmill will move backwards (matching as best as we can with todays science) at the same speed and time of the wheels surface speed.

(It is a known impossibility to exactly match the belt speed to the wheel speed while the plane is moving, So the belt is allowed to have a time lag <The wheel runs and the belt has to chase> So if the plane moves forward then this is no problem to the question)

The Plane in use is a CH701
The runway is as long as the shortest take off distance of this plane on a normal ISA day. (Plus a few feet, so if the planes shortest distance for take off is 50 feet, then lets make the treadmill runway 53ft)

At the end of the Runway there is a drop of 2ft onto rough rocky ground where any plane would no doubt rip its landing gear off and crash should it try to roll over it. (This is just to prevent the use of more than the runway for the take off run)

The wheel speed is the speed the plane would be doing on the ground with the wheels spinning at that Rate.
The belt speed is relative to the stationary Belt Platform.
There is no wind, and the atmospheric conditions are ISA.

Will the plane Take off ?

I Will not include this one as a Poll just yet. I would like assistance to help reword the question to Help Eliminate any Errors.

Once the question is reworded properly (Clear Complete Concise) I will add it as a poll.

Bryce.

[vintage1]

Really, I hope no one answers this.

This isn't modelling science.
What the hell difference does it make what the ground is doing?

It is only there to keep the plane from falling down past all the giant elephants and turtles that hold it up.

[FLDewey]

If a plane leaves Cleavland at 4:30...

[HX3D014]

Really, I hope no one answers this.

This isn't modelling science. (LOL)
What the hell difference does it make what the ground is doing?

It is only there to keep the plane from falling down past all the giant elephants and turtles that hold it up.
Yeah I know what you are saying. Its all turtles all the way down.

What may not feel like Science to you and I is baffling others. (Baffled me not long ago, actually still feels like Physics to me)

Thus these two threads.

These two threads are an Attempt to clarify the question, with two basic Mechanical Differences.

PS
Thanks for being the first to answer it ;)

Bryce.

[Murocflyer]

If a plane leaves Cleavland at 4:30...

It won't. It'll be delayed of course.

But the airline will say it left "on time" because it backed out of the gateway. Only to let you sit on the tarmac for another 45 minutes missing your connection at Dulles.

Frank

[HX3D014]

What the hell difference does it make what the ground is doing?

OK. I pushed back late on this one. Hehe. I got home late and forgot about it for a while ;)

Glad you asked there vintage1

The difference that can be caused by the ground doing something is Significant enough to Cause the Plane to not reach Take off speed before it reached the end of the runway.

The question is not to be restrictive to the point where if that were to happen then the experiment is null and void all data Scraped.

IE If the plane dose run out of runway before reaching take off speed then the Belt Won.

Help me word a question that would not be restrictive in that way.

Other points of Non restrictions.

The belt could cause the plane to move backwards if the belt is being controlled by some one with a simple Acceleration dial. But it is being controlled by the Wheel speed. It is not important if the Wheel speed is greater than the belt speed, just that the belt is doing its best to try and keep up.

Thanks in advance.
Bryce.

[HerkS]

This whole theme has to be a total put-on.

Somebody is trying to sucker people into buying something totally meaningless.

This is almost as bad as the down-wind turn fiasco, only even more transparently irrelevant.

[Neil Walker]

What I want to know is Why are some Words Capitalized and others Aren't?

[HX3D014]

OK Thanks all.

I will get to it later. Off to work again Soon.

Ya gota be cruel to be kind eh ;)

So Far I have;

Neil Walker;
Need to remove capitals.

HerkS;
Needs to be more clear the intent and the Description. Meaningless or not. it is not supposed to be A downwind turn discussion. It is a different concept derived as a solution to a solvable problem. (In the words of NMasters "If there isn't any logical conclusion it's not a thought experiment, just a riddle, and trolling. (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11993339&postcount=91)"

Vintage1
wants some sort of Proof that it is modelling science before he feels the thread is worthy of not receiving his "Hope no one answers this" contributions.

In the mean time, Have any of you got any Proper Suggestions of the More Specific type.

[HX3D014]

OK. I pushed back late on this one. Hehe. I got home late and forgot about it for a while ;)

Glad you asked there vintage1

The difference that can be caused by the ground doing something is Significant enough to Cause the Plane to not reach Take off speed before it reached the end of the runway.

The question is not to be restrictive to the point where if that were to happen then the experiment is null and void all data Scraped.

IE If the plane dose run out of runway before reaching take off speed then the Belt Won.

Help me word a question that would not be restrictive in that way.

Other points of Non restrictions.

The belt could cause the plane to move backwards if the belt is being controlled by some one with a simple Acceleration dial. But it is being controlled by the Wheel speed. It is not important if the Wheel speed is greater than the belt speed, just that the belt is doing its best to try and keep up.

Thanks in advance.
Bryce.
Do you feel that it would make for a more interesting question if it were controlled by someone with an acceleration dial for the treadmill? and their objective is just prevent the plane from reaching take off speed before the end of the runway.

[HX3D014]

This whole theme has to be a total put-on.

Somebody is trying to sucker people into buying something totally meaningless.

This is almost as bad as the down-wind turn fiasco, only even more transparently irrelevant.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11690578&postcount=260
Describe What is Irrelevant. that this is not modelling science? or are you saying that the Force mentioned in this thread is non existent?

Seen this thread (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1007606) ?


Here was my take on the Down Wind turn Discussion (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=577415&postcount=166).

[HerkS]

The Plane in use is a CH701
The runway is as long as the shortest take off distance of this plane on a normal ISA day. (Plus a few feet, so if the planes shortest distance for take off is 35 feet, then lets make the treadmill runway 38ft)

At the end of the Runway there is a drop of 2ft onto rough rocky ground where any plane would no doubt rip its landing gear off and crash should it try to roll over it. (This is just to prevent the use of more than the runway for the take off run)

The wheel speed is the speed the plane would be doing on the ground with the wheels spinning at that Rate.
The belt speed is relative to the stationary Belt Platform.
There is no wind, and the atmospheric conditions are ISA.

Will the plane Take off ?

Bryce.[/SIZE][/CENTER]

Will the plane take off? -- No
The effect of your theoretical belt is to increase the acceleration rate and rotational speed of the wheels to a higher value than would normally be experienced. There is a drag vector at the belt/tire contact point that is responsible for tire rotation, so this would be larger than the normal value, and would have to be overcome by the available thrust, so would extend the takeoff distance by some indeterminate amount.

The actual difference in ground contact drag depends upon the mass moment of inertia of the wheels - information that is not available. It would also depend upon the sensing and feedback system driving the belt. With the belt "chasing" the acceleration of the wheels, a runaway feedback loop could develop and quickly increase belt speed high enough to destroy the wheels and tires. That would definitely affect takeoff distance.

A small point --- since you have given only 38 feet for the takeoff roll, and the minimum specified takeoff distance for the plane is 50 feet, it definitely will not be able to rise before reaching the end of the belt.

[CT-7]

This all comes down to speed relative to what object. In my mind the belt speed reative to the ground must match the wheel surface speed relative to the airplane

I believe HerkS is correct. I think the plane would not even move because if the belt is matching the wheel "surface" speed at all times there would be no foreward movement, the belt and wheels would quickly accelerate to an insane speed, the wheels would fly to pieces, and that would be the end. Effectively all the planes thrust would be transfered (with zero loss) into rotational power applied to the wheels causing them to accelerate very quickly.