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[EagleOne]

123

[dsman]

Edited out

[Antonsoarer]

Be safe :)

[Terminator]

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[KingOfTheHill]

Great more "Big Brother" or people with no business in the matter trying to protect me.

How about you don't worry about it?

JOe

[timmig]

"How about you don't worry about it?"

Now there's a mature decision!

Like the one above--let's just put our head in the sand--until someone dies!!

Part of the problem is when someone does get hurt--it won't just be the DS community that will pay a price. The person that's injured is sad enough--but the WHOLE RC community will get penalized. I'm not willing to jeopardize an entire hobby to some that refuse to be responsible. I"ve personally seen idiots fly over other pilots while DSing, and then got 'chastized" for asking the pilot to stop! Watching a radar gun operator maneuver himself directly into and under the flight path to be sure he "picked up" the plane on the gun is rediculous also. But many times, that's how it's being done! It certainly wouldn't hurt to create some safety regulations / barriers could be designed etc. WHY NOT be safe-- especially with the speeds that are now being attained. It's MORE dangerous, not less.
IMHO
T

[Daemon]

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[Indubitably]

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[Accu157]

Always take caution in the best light, I agree. Some level of safety should be maintained, otherwise... it was fun while it lasted. At the speeds being reached now, I'm not sure a 2" thick steel barrier would be the best thing. The energy these models are reaching cannot be absorbed, but they can be redirected with a wedge to hide behind. Sub 200 mph levels seemed to be about the top comfort limit for me, now we are sustaining 300 mph, and we'll probably be barely breaking 400 by this summer. That recent top speed plane had the kinetic energy of 383 kiloJoules. That is the SAME amount of energy a 3300 pound car has at 50 miles an hour. Try and make a barrier redirect that, and we're talking the same rebar reinforced concrete "Jersey" barriers that divide freeways. Most DS models are not that large, granted. Just be safe. If enough people are out there doing this thing, engineer the safety barrier for people. I doubt anyone can move a blade that fast, I have little doubt someone could get sliced by these models. Our hobby has demonstrated for several decades that it has an excellent safety record, better than any team sport. Lets keep it up.

[cvanscho]

"
Part of the problem is when someone does get hurt--it won't just be the DS community that will pay a price. The person that's injured is sad enough--but the WHOLE RC community will get penalized. I'm not willing to jeopardize an entire hobby to some that refuse to be responsible. IMHO
TThis is exactly my point that I raised in a UK forum, and got myself roasted for my troubles.

Threads like this are not producing "ammunition" for the "anti-" brigade: the videos that have been posted on open video hosting sites are doing enough on their own: any idiot can watch those and see how spectacularly unsafe the spectators and radar operators are.

A parable: I was into dune buggies in the seventies and eighties. 99.9% of strangers who strolled over for a chat about my machine asked the same, tired question: "What about that girl who was killed when her hair got caught in the fan belt?" That is the ONLY thing that has stuck in the memory of the general public with regard to buggies :mad: . Similarly, it will take just one idiot to get sliced in half anywhere in the world because of inadequate forethought regarding safety, and you know what reaction I'll get next time I approach a farmer to ask for access to his land for flying a glider:( ..

Just think a bit about what could go wrong, and take sensible precautions, is all..

Happy Paddy's Day!

[dsman]

Edited out

[isoaritfirst]

deleted because you dont want to know

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[EagleOne]

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[The Predator]

Product liability, HMMMM
That is insight I can use to defend myself from litigious types. Just for the record, WARNING, NONE of my ships are intended to fly or DS at over 40MPH ever. Exceeding this speed is dangerous and places all liability on the pilot alone!

Getting hit at 50mph with a light weight wing, 20ozs, would easily break your nose, don't ask me how I know that.

My favorite DS is done alone or with a couple of very trusted super DS pilot buddies, short of that, my spider senses remain tingling most all the time. I've been scouting and training physically, specifically for these issues. A stiff hike with some peace and quiet is good for the soul anyway.
This thread should be closed before manufactures decided to, "not risk it," anymore with their heafty profits . . .LOL

[Cory]

Great concept.......if there was a way to do it. I'm all for safety. The problem with that idea is that we don't own the property that we fly on. Kepp's Crossing here in Idaho is on State lands, specifically the Tex Creek Wildlife Management Area. It's illegal in Idaho to make sunken blinds for hunting. I'm certain the ranger wouldn't look to kindly on us digging up the WMA for flying. Not to mention that it would take dynamite to blast out a trench in the solid rock with only a few inches of dirt on top in some areas that we fly on here. We also have a long enough hill that several pilots can fly at the same time, and 10 degrees diference in wind heading can change the locations of the best grooves. We'd need quite a few fox holes to cover the posibilities.

I think the only thing we can do here is to make a pile of rocks to offer a slight amount of shelter. Of course, I'm certain some dirt biker or hunter will get a kick out of rolling such a convenient pile of rocks down the hill, and we'll have to rebuild it every now and then. I'd love to have something like your fox hole idea or Jersey barriers, but nothing like that is going to happen here.

[Jantar2A]

finally

[flystoolow]

Wear a tinfoil hat!

Then at least the radar operator can let your family know how slow your reaction was. :D

[screamin' eagle]

That's a good point, Nick. Folks have been killed by powered models, and one guy at our local field had a femoral artery severed and almost died. Nothing was shut down, the publicity did not result in a public outcry, and modeling as we knew it is still viable.

I fear for my own safety whenever someone other than me is DSing. A foamie going 50 mph could easily kill my young daughter, who sometimes comes to the slope with me. I don't think there is any "safe" speed with a moldie. 80-100mph is plenty fast to do lots of damage. Faster than that and I am always well out of the way unless I'm gunning. In that case I take my life into my own hands.

As has been said above. Be smart, be aware, and do whatever you feel is necessary to keep yourself safe on the slope. If you are flying, do whatever you feel is necessary to keep everyone else safe.

[Terminator]

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[Accu157]

Be sure if barriers are put up, that we know that the protection is sufficient. Plywood will do nothing if that is the only protection. There is a photo somewhere of an early DS model crash trench made at sub 200 levels. Granted, the soil was soft, but the wing made a fairly uniform dent of what appeared to be 28" into the ground (not the fuselage). Keep those wings strong! :eek: :)

I ran some numbers to try something no one has thought about, Doppler shift in the received frequency. I think we're good. It may seem silly to test for a concern like this, but not knowing... is simply not knowing. The shift is around plus or minus 42 hertz in the received frequency at the latest top speed. (someone verify this) With 20 kHz spacing we should be fine on other radios, and depending on how the circuitry was engineered, the standard 5kHz shift should be ok as well. What about spread spectrum and PCM?

[KurtMc]

I think the easiest solution at most drive-n-fly sites would be to circle the wagons -- i.e., park vehicles in front of the radar operators and pilot and fly from behind them.

AMA is a minimum requirement, I'd think, for fast DSers.

A one pilot/one gunner rule might be a good idea, too, to get as many spectators as possible to stay 500 feet away from the pilot's / gunner's area.

This thread could be a good suggestion box as to ways to improve safety. You can't be too safe.

Peace

[isoaritfirst]

I really enjoy Ds, and although we havent yet reached anywhere near the US speeds, we are now starting to find areas and models that will take us over 200mph.

My experiences which were posted elsewhere last week (and now deleted) have caused me to reconsider if 200+ ds is something that I can afford to be part of, and I'm not talking about model costs here.

I will continue to ds foam -- in the future if a location comes along where permission is granted and public access is restricted, I would take "my" chances again with harder models.

Less than 200mph with foam is still in need of treating with great respect, but provided I do everything I can to mitigate the risk -- then I could honestly say "it was an accident" and possibly live with myself.

[Daemon]

,,,

[wakumann]

Everbody has to make their own decision if the risk to DS is worth it.

Not only for their own safety but mostly for the bystanders.
For myself I not willing to take the risk to injure or kill someone else and live with it. The financial desaster is another objective.
I don't believe any insurance company would cover such .....


This is possible a reason why most of the DS pioners moved on.
(like the guys from 1. and only {for safety reasons} Cape Blanko DS fest)

Cheers
Thomas

PS.: the same decision about safety barriers and rules was done long time ago, oviously with not much results.

[Accu157]

Vehicular concerns aside, I really think there should be a structural wedge to hide behind, which is towed in on a trailer. Dirt is an unknown, water may be a good way to disperse the energy as well, but we want to minimize the weight taken to the flying site. A humvee may be strong, but if it's just the standard transport, these models could potentially go right through it. Remember, the most recent top speed had the energy of a car weighing 3300 pounds, moving at 50 mph. Perhaps there is a substitute instead of concrete, like layers of kevlar sheets, something a bit elastic. The reason I like the wedge design, is it doesn't so much try to stop the model as it redirects it, meaning you do not need to make it nearly as strong as something like the Jersey barriers I mentioned earlier. The cutting tip of the wedge should be sharp, just a strip of hard steel ground to a point. Also, in the event a model does crash into the barrier, people should not be leaning up on the barrier as it could be thrust back a fair amount.


Edit: I made an error, I thought this was the Dynamic 160, not the kinetic. How much did it weigh? It wasn't 55 pounds was it? :confused: I say build the barriers for the 55 pound limit anyway... even if I made an error.

[wakumann]

Vehicular concerns aside, I really think there should be a structural wedge to hide behind, which is towed in on a trailer. Dirt is an unknown, water may be a good way to disperse the energy as well, but we want to minimize the weight taken to the flying site. A humvee may be strong, but if it's just the standard transport, these models could potentially go right through it. Remember, the most recent top speed had the energy of a car weighing 3300 pounds, moving at 50 mph. Perhaps there is a substitute instead of concrete, like layers of kevlar sheets, something a bit elastic. The reason I like the wedge design, is it doesn't so much try to stop the model as it redirects it, meaning you do not need to make it nearly as strong as something like the Jersey barriers I mentioned earlier. The cutting tip of the wedge should be sharp, just a strip of hard steel ground to a point. Also, in the event a model does crash into the barrier, people should not be leaning up on the barrier as it could be thrust back a fair amount

@ Accu157

maybe you own a nice Ds hill where you can build your own Bunker?

A few rows of HD Alfalfa Hay Bales would do in the most cases, just not in expectation of the worst case scenario.
But hey, not even Nuclear reactors are build to survive direct 747 impact in all circumstances.

Cheers
Thomas

[bwalt822]

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/eppp-archive/100/201/300/cm/html/2001/v08n02/vol4/no20/suit.jpg

Radar man suit

[dsman]

Edited out

[EagleOne]

123

[EagleOne]

123

[Daemon]

;;;

[Mike the Snake]

I've got it!

We make a big metal suit shaped like a big wedge of cheese! LOL

[EagleOne]

123

[Accu157]

@ Accu157

maybe you own a nice Ds hill where you can build your own Bunker?

A few rows of HD Alfalfa Hay Bales would do in the most cases, just not in expectation of the worst case scenario.
But hey, not even Nuclear reactors are build to survive direct 747 impact in all circumstances.

Cheers
Thomas

The hay bales aren't such a bad idea. Only problem is, I might not be able to fly. Achoo! Achoo! Achoo! Achoo! Then you'd have my snot streams in the air getting on your clothes. Ack!

I'm wondering if the layers of kevlar and ply someone mentioned would work... A hybrid material seems to be a good idea. It seems to work well on our wings.

[AlpineDSacro]

My only thought about reading this thread ?? Is that , Actions speak louder than words !!

[Indubitably]

error

[wakumann]

Best of all is be there at your own risk, stand up to fly or radar at your own risk. And participate at your own risk. And take all the precautions that avail.
All eyes on the plane if possible, or get behind something. At some places it may not be a good idea to fly on the front while waiting, since there is open exposure, and no concentration on the plane flying. Again at your own risk.
All at your risk. Dont blame pilot, plane, etc. Assume all planes are dangerous, and all pilots capable of a glitch.


Good words John,
it may help to have a Physician/ Surgeon on site as well.

Cheers
Thomas

[-DoubleV-]

Reminds me of a little old German lady that I knew as a kid who was affraid to cross the street her entire life. She refused to in fear of being struck. When her car broke down one day she was forced to cross the highway on foot to seek help. Lo and behold, wham! Goodnight Irene.

Threads like these highten fears that in turn do nothing but help morph negative energy into actually spawning. The next thing you know its 'I told you so!' coming from some guy that doesnt even DS. My advice, concentrate on the good not the bad and do go messing with Murphy.

[Jantar2A]

it's

[FrogChief]

Hi all. Firstly, I should say that don't DS. I would but am unable to due to my location.

However I was a small arms instructor and an avid firearms enthusiast at one point; so I have the following advice. (worth a grain of salt) :o

When shooting in an uncontrolled space (non-firing range) we always designated ONE individual as the safety officer for the improvised range.

Only those shooting or spotting (flying and radar tracking) were allowed past the safety line. Before firing the safety officer would yell for the range to be cleared followed by a loud call of 'going hot.' Once the shooters were finished, the range officer would then declare the range safe to approach, traverse.

The same method could easily be utilized by the DS community to allow in-house mitigation of safety hazards. Of course the ground layout of the DS 'range' would be dependent on the location and needs of those flying.

Beyond that, unless you're at the range or on the mountain, it's none of your business.

P.S. - I have a sneaking suspicion that this thread is meant to address a 'problem' that doesn't really exist. (ie. people crowding the local DS slope while some guy buzzes people's heads at 300+ mph.) I just don't see that happening as RC pilots and clubs are by nature EXTREMELY safety conscious.

[Indubitably]

Error

[Jantar2A]

A dead

[Terminator]

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[wakumann]

Reminds me of a little old German lady that I knew as a kid who was affraid to cross the street her entire life. She refused to in fear of being struck. When her car broke down one day she was forced to cross the highway on foot to seek help. Lo and behold, wham! Goodnight Irene.

So Vic,
I can't get the similarities to DS, but who was the Driver, or did she just jump in front of the car ?

Cheers
Thomas

[nauga]

Just Kill this thread,,it's all common sense,,if you feel your current enviroment is unsafe remove yourself from it.How do you make everyone in a 360 deg/300+ mph frag pattern aware of the risks of the current environment? 340 mph is 500 feet per second. That's a big footprint with almost no reaction time, and in some cases the participants are not the only ones within range.

Nauga,
who has done range safety for faster stuff

[Jantar2A]

Thread

[KurtMc]

No reason to get testy fellers.

Peace

[isoaritfirst]

Excellent post Kurt.. lets keep some prospective.

There are several areas we need to look at seperatly.

1. Pilots -- could be argued they are there at their own risk and know the risk. But would their next of kin agree.
I understand that full size aircraft are brought to a standstill by catcher nets - ground stakes and supporting poles are all thats needed.
Pilots perhaps need to sign something to state their stance on risk.

2. spectators -- possibly similar to pilots. If pilots are taking cover then they will quickly learn, to not be there, or take appropriate action.

3. people in the area, not knowing the risk or expecting there to be any risk.

It's number 3 that concerns me most,
I suspect that this is a significantly greater problem in the UK than USA, and location is the only current solution available to us.

My concerns grew following a flyaway at just under 200mph.The location is a prime short ridge walk. This was understood and a look out is used to ensure a safe day. However my model flew for a considerable distance over a small wood and eventually into a clearing where it hit a large oak tree right at its base. Its trajectory had taken it directly over a small well trod footpath which we did not know was there or probably would not have considered if we had - due to it being such a long way off the ridge.

Despite the distances involved the impact was sobering.

[dsman]

Edited out

[cvanscho]

[......it may help to have a Physician/ Surgeon on site as well.]

:(
Seems site owner/operators, wishing to put a stop to rc flying, just got lucky.

C'mon guys, you're publishing to the world, get real.At the risk of repeating myself: a thread like this is hardly going to pop up on the radar of many readers around the world. What WILL, are those videos on popular video hosting sites like u-tube...

[ShredAir]

From my remote vantage, the groups of pilots pushing the envelope and achieving these incredible speeds are about as safe as it gets. They do have the situational awareness needed to minimize the risk.
The remoteness and the solitude of many DS sites also helps: if there is no one there but a small group of people aware of the necessary precautions, the chance of something bad to happen is minimized.
Situational awareness killed the repeat of the Cape Blanco DS Fest after the only one in 2002, despite the testing of a shelter made from expanded metal and a remote display for the radar gun: a public state park with sightseers traipsin' about all over the place simply is a poor choice as a DS site. Barren hills in the middle of b-f-nowhere are an excellent choice.

Dieter Mahlein, ShredAir

[wakumann]

@dsman/ cvanscho

it may help to have a Physician/ Surgeon on site as well
my quote above was directed at John and guess which Job he has???

Nothing serious.

Thomas

[Terminator]

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[Jantar2A]

Geez

[Indubitably]

error

[wakumann]

It's getting twisted, you right Nick.
Somehow I end up now in the oposition, only for my Post#38.
Quote:
Best of all is be there at your own risk, stand up to fly or radar at your own risk. And participate at your own risk. And take all the precautions that avail.
All eyes on the plane if possible, or get behind something. At some places it may not be a good idea to fly on the front while waiting, since there is open exposure, and no concentration on the plane flying. Again at your own risk.
All at your risk. Dont blame pilot, plane, etc. Assume all planes are dangerous, and all pilots capable of a glitch.


Good words John,
it may help to have a Physician/ Surgeon on site as well.


Someone please close this tread.

Cheers
Thomas

[EagleOne]

123

[Terminator]

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[interplanet]

I dont see why Ama would be a requirement for these fields and hills. Obviously joe shmoe isnt going to buy couple thousand dollar glider and hike the hill and just toss the thing off. I personally think that this a choice for these people to be doing this and it is there own concern, not yours, and not mine (unless you lose you plane and it lands on my roof in wisconsin)

This is a very special part of our hobby, it is breaking new grounds on not only models but science as well. Can you imaging a DS windmill built off the backsides of one of these hills?

[EagleOne]

123

[Daemon]

---

[daboz]

You seen 300 mph +? You'll need serious armor and that won't mitigate all that energy.

DIRT, SAND, MASS earth and berm,,, and flying with people that see the danger as it is, and who care, "more" about the people that fly around them than a number on a gun! :(

[mr_editor]

bwalt822
Its better to have something than nothing at all.


Not always. Give someone a bit of protection and they can feel invincible and get a bit over confident. A bit of fear driven respect works wonders.

[Daemon]

***

[daboz]

You seen 300 mph +? You'll need serious armor and that won't mitigate all that energy.

DIRT, SAND, MASS earth and berm,,, and flying with people that see the danger as it is, and who care, "more" about the people that fly around them than a number on a gun! :(

People are more important to me than numbers, to each his own... :rolleyes:

[interplanet]

come on now guys, if you want to chime in here then do it productivly. How about some specs, like radar guns and stuff like that.

What about a stationary gun?

[Terminator]

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[EagleOne]

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[interplanet]

Look at the fpv threads, real time control would be know problem at all.

[daboz]

interplanet probably hasn't seen a 300+ mph crash as we have... :o OR, OR 200mph+ DSing, OR a mad pilot flying a plane to the edge of destruction and beyond with mesmerized bystanders that have no idea what the risks are, :confused: standing in the line of fire to gain 10 more mph. OR read all the discussion of why stationary radar guns don't work.... OR heard the stories that we’ve heard.

I think only those who have been there OH and are "sane” know the reality of the situation. :eek: Most of the folks posting have good intentions but have no idea what they are talking about.

Go to Weldon on a windy friday, you'll see...

[daboz]

to get planes over 300 with curren radar guns, you have to be a very good aim...

[KingOfTheHill]

It simply blows me away that people that do not attend, or practice it tend to get in the business of others.

Don't feel safe, Don't go.... its THAT simple... Why do people find the need to bring attention to something that NEEDS to fly under the radar? Do you guys WANT the AMA getting in on this? Do you want to be restricted? Do you want to have to jump through hoops to fly your RC plane? Remember this is supposed to be FUN damnit... for christ sake... Bunch of Keyboard jockys that need to find a hot coffee lawsuit to join in on or something.

JOe

[EagleOne]

123

[interplanet]

wow, thanks for being a jerk about it bro, just trying to help. Guess i'll just see my way out of this thread.

Later

[EagleOne]

123

[KurtMc]

It simply blows me away that people that do not attend, or practice it tend to get in the business of others.

Don't feel safe, Don't go.... its THAT simple... Why do people find the need to bring attention to something that NEEDS to fly under the radar? Do you guys WANT the AMA getting in on this? Do you want to be restricted? Do you want to have to jump through hoops to fly your RC plane? Remember this is supposed to be FUN damnit... for christ sake... Bunch of Keyboard jockys that need to find a hot coffee lawsuit to join in on or something.

JOe

Peace JOe, hope to see you on the hill soon. You can sock me in the arm, then, if you want.

Kurt

[Daemon]

###

[KurtMc]

please fly safely

[Jantar2A]

it took

[EagleOne]

123

[Jantar2A]

far too

[Daemon]

And whatever you do, don't DS any plane over 150mph or witness someone
else doing it... Oh wait. ;)

ian

[KurtMc]

Wasn't going to post in this thread, found myself posting despite that, thought better of it.

Hope you guys fly fast -- and -- safe

Peace

[KingOfTheHill]

JOe, are you for safety or not?

Im for COMMON SENSE.

[threcixty]

It's simple.. Self destruct mode on the airplane.. Ballast made from tnt, once a plane crosses a set boundary, it blows up... Should make for some good video, and would be great to use with combat!

Being serious, like everyone else says, there are more dangerous things to do. You should see the full scale planes I have to fly. Do you guys get on regional airlines?? Funny, the entire flight crew is probably making under $40k a year and has less then two years experience between the two of them. Take into account that airlines are cutting corners to turn a profit, and how safe do ya feel now?

Atleast you wouldn't feel much..
Jim

[EagleOne]

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[ajroahkni]

I think that the person that *invented* DS/BS/whatever should ultimately be responsible for life taken.

If only it was known who that person was.

[EagleOne]

123

[joe manor]

I think that the person that *invented* DS/BS/whatever should ultimately be responsible for life taken.

If only it was known who that person was.
:D :D :D

[shawnc]

Place yourself in a plastic bubble inside of your own home to protect you from germs polution and the rest of the world. :rolleyes:

Oh yeh you might want to go underground incase a meteor hit's the earth or a satelite comes down.

N

No man, the radon, the radon...

[EagleOne]

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[EagleOne]

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[isoaritfirst]

It really doesn't matter how safe a set of procedures we
come up with, if in the meantime we get kicked off all the big DS ridges
due to increased public perception of danger simply because some people
who aren't directly involved in record setting DSing keep dragging this
topic out into the open with all their worst case scenarios.
ian

I can understand the fears that drive a statement like this, and if we had a better more private tool for discussion then it may be better, however as has been said before, we are out there, we do post fresh videos each week, which are much more likely to be seen than this thread.

Threads on this forum tend to have a fairly short shelf life. perhaps all it needs is a less conspicuous title.

If this thread makes someone stop and think before going out and Dsing in their local park, then it has some worth.
If it makes someone scout the surrounding hillside to understand where areas that may cause problems lie and how best to overcome those problems, that again surely has some worth. If it stops them flying directly at the gun man to try to eec a couple of extra mph on the reading.

If by doing those things they fly safely in appropriate locations then the sport is likely to continue, and the guys who are taking their responsabilities seriously won't be stopped from enjoying themselves by the newer less experienced - who now have access to MCT's etc..

The pics of the american slopes look like big open scrub land with good allround visability and little likelyhood of a bunch of ramblers passing by every few minutes. This is not the case in other parts of the world.

I cant see a problem with Joe being out with likeminded accepting risk takers if the locations used are appropriate for the likely speeds involved.

[danand]

I think that the person that *invented* DS/BS/whatever should ultimately be responsible for life taken.

If only it was known who that person was.

You're right I say we preemptively sue that DS inventing and dopey post starting freak, and he certainly is a freak, for all damages that have been and will be caused by HIS and only HIS dastardly invention. ;) ;) ;)

[Jantar2A]

long

[Terminator]

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[daboz]

When u coming out nick, I need some pro tips :rolleyes:. Let me know I would like to fly with pros and or you Nick.

RCSpeeds, Cool, ahhh notin to charge for + I like it and one of these days when we can all enter our own speeds it wont be much to do for me anyway. :D

Have fun all... :p

[Jantar2A]

LOLOLOL

Have a great day guy's

N