practical difference between giant scale flying and parkflying

[smau1]

Hi

I hope this is not too off topic. I am considering purchasing a used 1/4 scale cub, but my rc experience is entirely park flying (Walmart glider conversion, multiplex twinstar). I am wondering if such a large airplane is practical for me. Questions I have include:

What are the logistic difficulties? Do I have to go to an AMA flying field? Do I have to purchase a AMA insurance? Does logistics reduce flying time significantly? (I now fly in my backyard and local open areas.)

What about safety? What do I have to do differently for a giant scale?

Are electronic parts much more expensive?

Is repair actually easier compared to smaller balsa planes?

What different enjoyment do you get out of a large airplane?

Any comments about the difference between flying these large airplanes vs. parkflyer is appreciated.

Thanks.

[realtimerecon]

Hi

I hope this is not too off topic. I am considering purchasing a used 1/4 scale cub, but my rc experience is entirely park flying (Walmart glider conversion, multiplex twinstar). I am wondering if such a large airplane is practical for me. Questions I have include:

What are the logistic difficulties? Do I have to go to an AMA flying field? Do I have to purchase a AMA insurance? Does logistics reduce flying time significantly? (I now fly in my backyard and local open areas.)

What about safety? What do I have to do differently for a giant scale?

Are electronic parts much more expensive?

Is repair actually easier compared to smaller balsa planes?

What different enjoyment do you get out of a large airplane?

Any comments about the difference between flying these large airplanes vs. parkflyer is appreciated.

Thanks.
I have a hanger 9 (40) size 80" J-3.Its worlds different than flying a park flyer.First off you'll need tons of room, as this baby just dosent want to land.Electronics are pricy,if u go quality.But the enjoyment of seeing,flying a big bird is great.I have a E-flite 60 in it w/8,800 Mah.Tanics, AUW is 8 pounds, even.IF U have BIG areas to fly,go 4 it :D...RTR

[jrb]

I’ve flown large planes from a non-club sites (park) – with a real case of the puckers!

Not that the plane was any harder to fly than a park flyer (a lot of ways much easier); but 10++ pound and 50++mph could really hurt someone.

I really suggest, unless it's your back 40; fly this size of model at a club site!

[dag214]

Hope this might help, but......

It depends on how you fly, and your experience. I learned how planes worked with control line along time ago in a place far far away. By flying control line I like seeing my plane up close. When I got into RC I love to fly in close. I have only had 2 park fliers and they fly basically like the bigger ones, except most have a lot of power. I have flown my 50% Pitts S-1 at a soccer field for a demo once, I really had to stay ahead of the plane. It really comes down to how big your park is, and how comfortable you feel with flying a bigger plane that may not have to same power to weight ratio that you are used to.

I would suggest finding someone that has a plane similar to what you want and go to a field you feel good about flying at and fly it low and slow in close. See how it feels.

I have flow a 25% cub in a hanger once and felt really nervous but everyone watching said I never got close to hitting anything.

Just my 2 cents and I hope this help.

Cheers, Damon

[lmopar69]

My wife says bigger is better. ;) Until she see's what I spend. I prefer to fly large airplanes though. They just "feel" better. I only fly the big ones at AMA fields though.

Laine.

[edible_engine]

if a big plane hits you it hurts more

[Andrew McGregor]

You mentioned safety; well, these guys might have flown big planes in tiny spaces, but trust me, that is not a good idea until you know the plane and your own capabilities really well. A 1/4 scale plane really wants a field about 400m square, at least, with NO random bystanders and passers by. That means private space, either a field you own, one you can get access to privately, or a club field.

Treat big props with respect; even a very small electric will cut fingers, but a 1/4 scale will take most of the hand off.

Big airframes are easier to fix, but you also have to do a much better job (see: safety).

Electronics vary a lot depending on the plane; a 1/4 scale Cub might be quite cheap to outfit, a 1/4 scale aerobat will be more, and a 1/4 scale warbird will be horrendously expensive. Don't even think about a 1/4 scale jet...

The logistics means that flying big models is more of an outing you do deliberately, rather than keeping a model in the car.

Speaking of which, it's Sunday morning, I should put some big models in the car and go fly...

[eye4wings]

For me, flying a large scale model is far more of a relaxing thing. I don't want to be scared by a small fast or twitchy model all the time so I am finding myself building progressively bigger models - limited by the size of my vehicle. The whole point of scale modelling is to make a model fly as close to the way the full size flies as possible - and big models do that so well. You have more time to enjoy the look of the model you are flying on a low pass or just droning by overhead. But you do have to allow a lot more space for your turns.

The dangers of getting fingers (or worse) cut off seems to be overstated by most organisations because they mostly have in mind IC motors that need fingers close by to get them started and tuned. With electric power there is no need to get close to the dangerous bit in the first place. Stand back, check nobody is standing in harm's way and open the throttle. If you DO somehow get too close to a high revving prop be aware that an electric motor will not stop like an IC though.

Joining a club and using the club field as well worth the subs and the motoring to get there (I drive 25 miles) for the cameraderie and the cross fertilisation of ideas and hints and the availability of others in moments of need - and perhaps to stand by you while you fly.
I'd encourage anybody to be part of a club (or two).

Cost? Yes of course it costs more to fly a larger model, but electronics have been getting cheaper for several years now so it's not as bad as it used to be. So if you feel that Cub calling you, well, why not? Go for it! You'll never know until you do.
(But very wise of you to think it all through before you do)

[3 pointer]

Crazy, I just had this exact same thought this weekend and was going to post it up.

Only difference, was I was just wondering, if someone is comfortable at flying a 4 channel park flyer, could they quite easily move on to flying a giant scale, or do you feel that you would need new forms of training?

[Andrew McGregor]

If you're good at precision landings with a parkflier, you can fly the big model... they respond slower, so in that way they are easier. But they also suffer much more damage from minor mishaps, so you need to be very accurate in flying them.

[FrankW]

Only difference, was I was just wondering, if someone is comfortable at flying a 4 channel park flyer, could they quite easily move on to flying a giant scale, or do you feel that you would need new forms of training?

If you're competant with a 4 channel parkflyer you should have no problem with a giant scale plane. In fact you will probably find it a lot easier to fly, mostly because you can see it better. However, there is an intimidation factor when you're putting up a big, expensive, model when you're only used to cheaper parkflyers, especially for the maiden.

I've been getting progressively larger planes lately simply because they're more impressive when hanging from my ceiling. ;) They're also nice because it's easier to get your hands into them when doing repairs or maintenance.

-Frank

[3 pointer]

Thanks Frank

Well, my father has a new Extra 260 1/3 scale. But he is too scared to maiden it. I said to him I will do it, but I think he worries that most of my experiance has only been on the park size planes.

Actually, the size does intimidate me, but I thought he may just say yes lol.

[crowkrbe]

Big or small they all need the same function to fly. The difference is in the response. Beginners are not used to it. But not all beginners are equal. Larger looks cooler in the air but the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Who cares. If your too broke to pay to fix a crash then start off small and light. If you can afford this hobby then go for it and get used to it, if not then start collecting dust. That is free.

[portablevcb]

I am working my way up. Started with 30"-40" (1-2lb). Now at 54" (6lb). Next is 72"(~9lb).

It isn't so much as going from park flier as from light to heavy. Heavy planes do (usually) not react as fast to controls. But, they handle small gusts better. They will fly 'smoother'.

Larger costs more. 35" parkflier costs around $150 to outfit. 54" cost about $400. 72" is approaching $1000.

IMHO, unless you own your own field (or can get to a large deserted space), then an AMA membership and club field are mandatory.

charlie

[E-Challenged]

You can buy the model itself for relatively little money but that is only the start of added expense and committment to the hobby. You will need to get AMA membership/insurance and will need to join a club (initiation fee and annual dues and participation in meetings, etc)to fly at an organised flying site where a large model is practical and safe to fly. You will need to fly in a controlled racetrack pattern to avoid mid-air collision with up to five models flying at the same time. You will need much larger more expensive battery packs and charging equipment and probably more sophisicaed R/C gear just for the Cub but will probably want to continue with other models. There a lot of positive aspects to getting more involved , learning and advancing in the hobby but there is considerable added cost and effort. Larger models fly somewhat more realistically than small models, if you are into scale models that may be important to you. You may be impressed by sheer size, which is ok if you are willing to spend more money and committment.

[Robert-CSD]

I would recommend taking the large aircraft to a local power field and watch the way the planes of your size take off and land. Then ask around for who is the one of the better pilots and ask him some questions about your plane. If you have a buddy box tat would be best. I know guys flying turbine jets that use them when getting a new model in the air. Yes, two 14MZ buddy boxed together - amazing site that was! The same guy owned both - now that’s preparation. Anyway, your best bet is to take the plane to a power field and ask if you could fly, then ask for help and last but not least be ready. If he is any good - he will ask to see the mechanics of the servos, motor airframe before you or he fly for safety sake. It is difficult to say in a short paragraph the differences – I know there are more than you realize at first glance, this is why you should go to the local power field and see for your self.

[crowkrbe]

I want to fly bigger and bigger, but after a while you have to realize that even a crash on my 40" trainer costs me $20 a pop. Just broke another wing yesterday seeing if I could fly in a bad cross wind. Glad it wasn't my F4u that might have cost more. The intimidation is all about the fear of crashing and the cost to repair.

[Robert-CSD]

crowkrbe,
That is a good point. But, bigger plans have a wider flight envelope - that is - they fly better in every direction. The slow down better, they fly faster (you really don't notice this because of the size.) The stall comes up slowly and you can recover more easily. Changes to the radio set-up are more noticeable. So, you are building a working towards a better flying plane after each flight. They usually have higher w/Lbs than the smaller ones so you’re not at full throttle most of the time. The larger they get the more power you have the less reaction time needed and the less affected by the winds they become. So, get to a power field and get some help to get you started in the right direction (see my last post for clarification). But with that said the large planes cost more when you crash and you should know what your pain threshold is and stay below it.

[ktaylor]

I guess I could answer this from my own expierience. All of my planes at one point fell into the park flier size & power scale. And I was happy with that until I somehow managed to end up winning a bid for a 50 sized chipmunk on ebay. Didn't expect to win, but I did. So from there I out fitted it & flew it. It lasted for about 4 flights. The biggest reason for it's demise, I wasn't used to taking off & landing from the ground. All of my previous planes had been hand launched belly landing planes. Since then I've had quite a few large planes, my largest being a 120 sized corsair. All are electric powered of course.

Now, from the three occasions that I've had with flying cubs, it doesn't matter what size, ground handling on those birds is horrible unless you have good ground maneuvering skills.

I would definitely find an AMA field, just for the simple fact that there will be club members who (if they aren't a bunch of jerks) will be willing to help you out with any problems you might encounter. Most of my flying is done from a private area, but when I started with bigger planes, the club guys were really helpfull to have around. I still do my maiden flights from the club field.

[crowkrbe]

Robert CSD
I agree. I am now moving up in price of plane and repair, but crashes are fewer and confidence is higher because the bigger better planes handle better in the air. They point where I want and when I want. I owe it all to the computer flight sim though.
smau1 if you are still listening and you don't have one then get one and wear it out. I took a brand new bigger plane, to a brand new flying field , in front of new people, on a more than I would want windy day, and flew just great. I owe it to the sim and the hours of practice on it. Thats where you crash the most and it dosnt cost a thing. Do get your AMA and join a club. Your leaarn so much!

[rallison]

smau1, most of your questions have been answered by now, so I'm not sure if I'm going to add much, but I am replying anyway because this is exactly the transition I am making.

I learned to fly R/C on a simulator, and then for real with two fair sized parkflyers at the local municipal park. But (though I still have my park planes) I've just joined a club to have access to a real field for my current electric Senior Telemaster and two other large planes I'll have put together this summer. So I've just done the transition you're considering. My $.02:

Do you have to go to an AMA flying field? No, but you will need a larger field anyway; unless you live on a farm or are hours from a club, it's strongly recommended, for all the reasons cited by others above.

Do you have to purchase AMA insurance? If you fly at a club, you will need to be an AMA member. If you chose otherwise, do not fly around people or buildings, ever. One damage/injury lawsuit will cost a lot more than a lifetime AMA membership.

Does logistics reduce flying time significantly? It doesn't reduce flying time. It increases the time involved because of travel and, if the plane is big, set-up/tear-down time. But bigger planes can handle more wind, so you have more days when you can fly.

What about safety? What does one have to do differently for giant scale? Even if you're not joining AMA/IMAA, read and obey their rules. In general, bigger = easier to fly smoothly + harder to recover from bad situations low to the ground. Be extra sure your power system is appropriate for the plane and type of flying you do (don't skimp!); and treat big LiPos like high explosives.

Are electronic parts much more expensive? Yes.

Is repair actually easier compared to smaller balsa planes? As noted, repair tends to be easier, but repairs are more likely for the same type of crash. Also, with some park flyers a bad crash means buying a replacement. With bigger planes, you're more likely to tackle the fix if only because it's much more costly to replace.

What different enjoyment do you get out of a large airplane? The answer to that depends on the person. For me: 1. More scale detail to pack in. 2. More 'ooohs' and 'aaahs' from family/friends/observers. 3. Less like a toy and more like a technical art. 4. My own amazement that I've sent a huge chunk of time and money so high into the air, tossed it around for a bit, and brought it safely back to Earth.

Any comments about the difference between flying these large airplanes vs. parkflyer is appreciated. The difference, like the planes, is really one of scale. Bigger cost, bigger turns, bigger take-off and landing runs, bigger buffers between plane and people, greater altitude and distance, etc.

One practical tip: I found that dialing in more tension on my Tx sticks helped me 'feel' the bigger plane better. Strongly recommended.

Hope my perspective added something useful for you. Good luck!

[Jim_Marconnet]

I'm a several year parkflyer who recently joined a large scale AMA club specifically for the social aspects. Now I'm thinking, "What can I come up with that fits the giant scale rules, but that I can afford?" I like biplanes, and they require only 60 inch wingspan instead of the 80 inches for monoplanes. So that's appealing to me.

Clearly it must be electric, not glow or gas like what most of the other members fly. I see here a lot of threads on specific planes, but I have no easy way to compare the real costs.

Since I have numerous motors, ESC, and LiPos for my parkflyers, I'm thinking that something multi-engine (or perhaps simply paralleling LiPos) may be a way to go to keep my out of pocket costs in line. But complexity could overwhelm that benefit. And I'm not aware of a lot of multi-engined biplane designs!

I use only Spektrum radios. They are inexpensive enough that a multi-receiver setup may make sense rather than running really long battery and servo wires. Not to mention that would eliminate any shaddowing issues!

The club has an AMA secluded flying field, so that's no problem, other than the half-hour drive each way up into Tennessee. I'm spoiled by being able to keep a foamy in my van and to fly at lunch near where I work, with no setup or assembly required.

Any suggestions/discussion other than to form a sub-giant auxiliary and just go fly my Acromaster with the giant scale guys! :-)

Jim Marconnet

[Brad Trent]

Jim, if you like scratch building, have a look at some of Ivan Pettigrew's designs, which are mostly multi-motor, including a multi-motor bipe. They were/are designed around cheap can motors, so will adapt very nicely to smallish outrunners and geared inrunners. Some of his models reach 120" span, are extremely light for their size, and fly incredibly well. Go to www.geocities.com/ivansplans/
Brad

[Jim_Marconnet]

Jim, if you like scratch building, have a look at some of Ivan Pettigrew's designs, which are mostly multi-motor, including a multi-motor bipe. They were/are designed around cheap can motors, so will adapt very nicely to smallish outrunners and geared inrunners. Some of his models reach 120" span, are extremely light for their size, and fly incredibly well. Go to www.geocities.com/ivansplans/
Brad
Thanks Brad for that suggestion! Actually several suggestions, scratch-build and floater.

I've spent some time looking over his site. I'm guessing that Ivan lives very near the water, what with all the seaplanes he has modeled.

The only biplane I saw there is the very first plane shown: D.H. 89 RAPIDE Span 76 inches. Length 56 inches. Wing area 1,100 sq. ins. Weight with nine N-1900 SCR cells is 97 ozs. Wing loading 12.8 oz/sq.ft. Built 1994.

I'm not familiar with that plane. And I'm not all that taken with its's looks, especially the landing gear. Reminds me of a corn field sprayer. But Guess I'll have to look it up and to consider it.

From Wikapedia: The de Havilland DH.89 Dragon Rapide was a British short-haul passenger airliner of the 1930s. Designed by the de Havilland company in late 1933 as a faster and more comfortable successor to the DH.84 Dragon, it was in effect a twin-engined, scaled-down version of the four-engined DH.86 Express. It shared many common features with the larger aircraft including its tapered wings, streamlined fairings and the Gipsy Six engine, but it demonstrated none of the operational vices of the larger aircraft and went on to become perhaps the most successful British-built commercial passenger aircraft of the 1930s.

Thanks so much!
Jim

[Brad Trent]

Yes, Jim, Ivan lives in the Fraser Valley of B.C., Canada, as do I, and we're surrounded with all kinds of bodies of water, from the Pacific Ocean, to the Fraser River (4th largest in N.America, I believe), to hundreds of lakes, large and small. The field at which Ivan flies is on Fairfield Island, in the Fraser River, but the current of the river is usually too strong to allow model flying, so several small lakes and ponds in the area are the normal water flying sites. I live about 60 mi. from Ivan, but meet him several times a year at fly-ins at his club field. He is a real gentleman, always willing to help fellow modellers, and I consider him a friend and mentor. The first large electric model I ever saw was his Lancaster, at a fly-in at the Boeing Space Centre, in Redmond, Wa., in 1997.
Brad.

P.S.: Have a look at the sticky thread in the scale forum - multi pages of Ivan designed models, with links to many build threads.

[BrentP]

My 2 cents worth also form Surrey B.C.

I taught myself to fly park flyers 2 yrs ago. I joined a club 1 yr ago and bought the H9 80in E Cub at 8lbs.
The heaviest I had flown previous was 2lbs.
The larger plane was rock solid and easy to fly but the Cub demands the use of rudder and I had little rudder expierience. But I learned quick and now have a few (not as big) but bigger than park flyers.

Take others advice and join a club though.
I never wanted to join a club but it was the best thing I did. It opened the door to bigger planes and safe flying (people at the park don't get it and will walk right out under your plane). Plus all the pals I've made and the wealth of knowledge is priceless.

Brent

[Jim_Marconnet]

I'm still looking around for a suitable first giant-scale plane for me. Have attended two monthly TVA meetings and enjoyed the comradarie. Found the discussions were really not that much about GS, but more general.

I also found that this club does not get together to fly much, expecting you to go fly at other clubs you may belong to. So guess I need to recalibrate my expectations and plans

Jim