Basic Thermalling Information Please.

[TIA]

Hi all.

I have a Wanderer and am flying it on the school grounds where we have a huge grassy field here in SoCal. I'm trying to hi-start it to find a thermal to climb up and learn the black art of thermalling. What ends up happening is I get a few minutes of flight until it floats down to the ground where I have to re-launch again. The plane flies great and sometimes I get a little bump and get a little elevation but I'm never able to grab that thermal and core it or get 100 to 200 ft. rise out of it.

I'm sure I'm just not practicing the art correctly so I ask you what are some basic steps to learn to thermal? Or if you do not have time to explain could you please point me to some internet reading that could help me?

Right now all I know, (or think I know) is when you see the tail "wag" you've just passed a thermal and you need to turn around and try to chase it to try to get in it. What happens is I turn around to chase it and I keep getting tail wags and it never seems like I'm getting in it. I'm just continuously chasing it.

What would the signs be that I'm actually in it? Would the glider start to turn and rise on its own? If it just rises how do I know which way to turn? Do thermals only turn one direction? Then after I see the sign that I'm in one what do I do to stay in it? I think I read somewhere you give it up elevator? All that has ever done for me is lead to a stall. LOL!

Thanks for any help you can give. :)

[FLY F3B]

TIA-

A thermal is a column of rising air. So as your Wanderer flies in the vicinity of a thermal certain things can be expected to happen to said Wanderer.

1. If you fly near to and "touch" the thermal with a wing tip, what would you expect to happen? Correct, that tip will be moved upward, and your Wanderer will in effect, be banked away from the thermal. What to do? Immediately turn back in the direction of the raised tip. Either a sharp 90 degree turn toward the raised tip, or simply allow the glider to follow a 270 degree turn around in the direction the glider was banked by the thermal, then straighten out and fly in the direction you would expect that lifting mass of air to be.

2. If it seems you glider is sinking faster than normal, you are in sink, and there is likely lift in the vicinity. Note that sinking air usually flows toward a thermal, and in calm conditions, the little breezes you feel on the ground are usually flowing toward rising air. You see, the air rising off the ground causes a bit of suction, and pulls the surrounding cooler air in underneath it.

A simple tail wag is not something that can be interpretted as any indication of lift, but a particular tail wag is a definite indication of the direction to fly toward rising air.

If you are flying around, and you are maintaining a straight glide path, and without you inputting any control, your tail gets pulled in one direction causing the glider to yaw to the left OR right, then it was likely caused by flight through the river of air that is moving to fill in underneath a rising air mass. So, if your glider got yawed to the left, meaning your tail was pulled to the right, this would indicate that the river of air that you just flew into was flowing to the glider's right, and that a right hand turn would likely take you in the direction of the rising air.

Once in a thermal, you will be able to recognize thermal contact by the sometimes not very subtle fact that your ground bound little Wanderer is getting smaller. Just make sure that every turn you make is to try to stay in the mass of air that is making your glider smaller, fastest.

Hope this helps.

Mike Smith

PS All you do is turn in circles once in this rising air mass. Do not use any more or less elevator to execute this turn than you would normally to make a nice smooth turn at a relatively slow speed.

[LVsoaring]

If you can, get your hands on the Secrets of Thermal Soaring DVD from Radio Carbon Art http://www.radiocarbonart.com/Pages/asecthermalmain.html

You can buy one direct, or just put a wanted post in the FS/W area. They are pretty easy to come by, and the information is well presented and easy to understand.

[Hostage-46]

The thing that helped me most when I began to take soaring more seriously was the CG. Moving the CG aft will make your model less stable, more manueverable. You'll also be able to see the ship respond more to changes in conditions.

There are plenty of threads on CG. Look for the graphic on the "dive test" I believe Dr. Drela was the original owner. Once the CG is properly set, you'll see a big difference and will be able to take further advantage of Mike's excellent advice.

[neilmny]

The Old Buzzards Soaring Book is really worth the cost too. http://www.flying-models.com/ then Book Hangar, then page down to the book Old Buzzard’s Soaring Book (A11560) Thornburg.

[TIA]

Neil I'll check out that book. Thanks!

[TIA]

Hi Mike.

I've seen a few videos with your teachings and must say it is an honor to have you answer my questions. Thank you very much. You're definitely a flying guru.

Thanks everyone else for your help too. You've provided avenues for me to pursue. Can't wait for my new PN videos to get here!

Back to the hunt!

;)

[neilmny]

TIA,

I forgot to mention that as LVSoaring said The Secrets of Thermal Soaring by Paul Naton is excellent (as are all his DVD's). http://www.radiocarbonart.com/Pages/asecthermalmain.html

DOH! should have read your last post :D ;)

[TIA]

Yeah! I've got that one and the Tuning one coming. I want to get Master Class and Performance Soaring next. Will need to wait for another paycheck and put dinner on the table for a few more weeks. :o

[wingsnapper]

While you're wating for those videos go out and watch some soaring birds do thier thing. True they are experiencing the air and reacting in first person, but the look of thier interactions with the air is no different than that of an rc sailplane. So pick a bird and try to predict thier next move.. you will be amazed when your guesses begin to become more like control imputs. This exercise also imprints the look of smooth efficient flight in your head.. This is the way your sailplane should fly. Stray from that look and you are no longer doing anything but horsing a toy around the sky. You might as well go put a motor on the nose and do some "real flyin"

[FLY F3B]

While you're wating for those videos go out and watch some soaring birds do thier thing. True they are experiencing the air and reacting in first person, but the look of thier interactions with the air is no different than that of an rc sailplane. So pick a bird and try to predict thier next move.. you will be amazed when your guesses begin to become more like control imputs. This exercise also imprints the look of smooth efficient flight in your head.. This is the way your sailplane should fly. Stray from that look and you are no longer doing anything but horsing a toy around the sky. You might as well go put a motor on the nose and do some "real flyin"


Very good idea wingsnapper. Especially regarding the "imprinting" of how your model should look while circling in a thermal......Don't know about that "real flyin" comment, but I like the rest of it for sure...

Cheers,

Mike

TIA, no problem at all. Good luck.

[Jurgen]

Thx Mike for sharing knowledge again. It's not always common for toppers to step forward.
Jurgen.

[larry vincek]

Keep in mind that if you fly the plane off to the side you can more easily see the plane climbing in a thermal . Then watch for the difference in the way it flies in the thermal and before long you'll be able to recognize those characteristics when the plane is more overhead.

[aeajr]

TIA,

Where do you have the plane balanced? At the point recommended in the instructions? It may fly well at that point but it may be too nose heavy to thermal well.

Time to move the CG back!

[TIA]

Ed. The plane is balanced at 2 11/16" as the manual calls for. I think it said I could adjust for a max of 3/8 more. I really think its just me not doing the right thing when I get into the thermal. I just seem to find my way out of it too easily. :rolleyes:

[Hostage-46]

Ed. The plane is balanced at 2 11/16" as the manual calls for. I think it said I could adjust for a max of 3/8 more. I really think its just me not doing the right thing when I get into the thermal. I just seem to find my way out of it too easily. :rolleyes:

Put it at the "MAX" aft setting. Fly it and I'll bet it's still quite tame. In most cases the manual has a very conservative CG. My old Spirt was dead and lifeless until I tossed the manual and found my own CG.

Keep moving it aft in very small increments until it's a bit too squirly, then put back that last bit of weight you just took out. Then there's the dive test... I bet Ed has that link...

[wingsnapper]

...Don't know about that "real flyin" comment, but I like the rest of it for sure...

Cheers,

Mike

TIA, no problem at all. Good luck.

Thanks, Guess I forgot to insert the :rolleyes: I should have been reported to the administrator for that one.... :D

[FLY F3B]

Guess I forgot to insert the :rolleyes:

No :rolleyes: needed snapper. I was kidding too...

Have a great weekend.

Mike

[Thermaler]

There have been some VERY good answers from some VERY good people here.
The one thing I did not see was the question "Were are you at?"
Might just be able to find somebody close that could help you in your quest to learn the "Black Art of Thermaling".
I learned more in one weekend flying with somebody that had a better idea than I had than I did in the previous year of flying solo.
Thanks TIZ, we miss you, RIP

Joe

[TIA]

Hi Joe.

I'm in Southern California. I got a pm from someone who is sending me to a club called SWSA. I will be a walkin sponge when I get there. Nothing like a little group tharapy eh?

Thanks!

[aeajr]

Most balance points on plans are set more forward than is optimal for thermal soaring. This results in the need for you to trim in some up trim. The combination flies well but is not optimal for thermal riding. You may be able to hook a thermal but it will be harder to hold it with that heavy nose.

Try moving the balance back a little at a time. No need to measure the actual balance point, just take some weight out of the nose. When I do my initial balancing of my planes I leave some of the balance weight as removeable so I can more easily go through this process.

Take out 1/4 ounce and see how it flies. Then take out another 1/4 aftera few flights. You will likely find, during your test flights, you may need to add a click or two of down trim to compensate for the lighter nose. This is normal.

With the nose lighter the plane becomes more sensitive to thermals and can rise in the thermals more easily. It will also have less of a tendency to drop the nose in low speed thermal turns.

Over a series of flights, keep taking weight out of the nose. At some point the plane will become unstable and hard to fly. At that point, add some weight back to the nose.

I go through this very process on every one of my gliders. It makes a big difference in how they thermal.

BTW, if it is hard to pull out weight or to move things around to move the CG back, just add weight to the tail. You can tape dimes or quarters on the tail or tape them to the back of the fuselage. I picked up this tip from the RCA "Tuning for Performance video that you have on order. Great video!

Remember that a gram on the tail is like taking 3-5 grams out of the nose. I use dimes, about .1 ounce, or quarters, about .22 ounce on the tail. I tape them on tight with electrical tape.

This is pretty easy to do during the trimming process. Once you find the optimal balance point for thermal hunting you can measure the balance point, then make permanant weight adjustments inside the plane. If you epoxied a wad of lead shot in the nose, just drill some out.

I have my planes balanced for optimal performance in calm conditions where I can handle the most rearward CG. When the wind comes up I find I need to add a little back into the nose for greater stability in turbulant air.

I might add 1/4 to 1/2 ounce back into the nose in windy or gusty conditions. This is balancing, not ballasting. By using removeable weights I can pull it back out in calmer conditions.

Try it, you'll like it!

Note that, as you move the CG back you are effectively moving the tow hook forward from the CG point so you may later want to move the hook back too. With the lighter nose, the plane will rotate faster on launch giving you better launches too.

I recall helping a friend trim his glider. I flew OK but would fall out of thermals easilly. We took a full ounce out of the nose by the end of the trimming process.

Ed Anderson

[Thermaler]

Hi Joe.

I'm in Southern California. I got a pm from someone who is sending me to a club called SWSA. I will be a walkin sponge when I get there. Nothing like a little group tharapy eh?

Thanks!


You will dry out quickly as you will find that they are a great bunch of guys.
Their websit is pretty cool too! http://silent-wings.org/

The group therapy is always a good thing, share the pain and joy.


Joe

[aeajr]

Hi Joe.

I'm in Southern California. I got a pm from someone who is sending me to a club called SWSA. I will be a walkin sponge when I get there. Nothing like a little group tharapy eh?

Thanks!

Did you make it to that club? What did you soak up? Share your insights.

Inquiring minds want to know.

[TIA]

Hello Ed.

I had an operation and am barely walking at this point so have been unable to get to the field. However, I did buy a bunch of Pauls DVD's to keep my mind occupied during recovory. I should be able to launch in another week or two.

From the huge amount I've learned from the DVD's I don't think I was turning when my tip would rise, not the right direction, or not turning enough degrees to get into the thermal.

In addition, I may not have been turning sharp enough in the core as I am usually flying at fairly low altitudes.

Mr. Naton, Mr. Smith, Mr. Hobb, and many many DLG contest pilots give extraordinary advice on thermals, on the DVD's, from how to find them to knowing when to find another, to which I cannot wait to practice.

I'll update upon my experiences.

TIA

[Brendan Miller]

I was flying the Saturday with my Espada, I was going down wind when out of no where the wing tip is picked up and my plane goes vertical. I was able to climb for a nice flight.

Wing tips going up the plane wobbling or going up and slowing down a little bit when going down wind are good thermal indicators. The best are circling birds of prey like hawks.

[Kenny Sharp]

I really think its just me not doing the right thing when I get into the thermal. I just seem to find my way out of it too easily. :rolleyes:

The only thing not mentioned yet is this:

Do whatever control inputs are necessary to keep the bank angle and airspeed constant.
Don't worry about where the plane wants to go....just go there.

Try this, and I think you'll stay in them longer.

[Resurgam]

I often tend to forget that thermals move around and generally drift with the wind - although sometimes at low altitude the little feeder thermals actually go against the prevailing wind as they get sucked into the main core. Another thing that always surprises me is how quickly conditions can change. The thermal that was there 30 seconds ago has probably moved on or just plain died ... As an additional thought, if you are physically up to it after your operation, you can learn a huge amount from a simple dlg.

[TIA]

UPDATE:

Well I got a shot at going out yesterday. One of my good friends who is a TD competitor, and has more money than good sense, sold one of his best planes to me. A Shadow. (Mainly to get me a good TD plane quick!) So we went to the field and he proceeded to set up his winch. He threw a couple times to make trim adjustments because he had bined it to my radio. After that he launched it and caught a huge thermal and it was up elevator!!! More people came out, Terminator, SmokinJoe, ClayH, Larry Jolly, Tim Cooke, Bro, and others with their Xplorers, Zeniths, and Aspires, etc.. Everyone’s plane flew awesome but then again these guys are all top notch.

My buddy did another launch then put the plane in a small thermal. He showed me how to give it rudder in one direction and aileron in the other direction to keep the wings more level. He then handed the controller to me. I flew it around and tried to stay in the thermal but the glider started descending so I just started putting it into a landing pattern and came down. Aside: I primarily came from a slope flying background and am not used to planes feeling so un-crisp, unresponsive, slow, and mushy feeling around the controls. So this is really a shock to get used to. But after the day of flying I was starting to get used to the feeling. Was still a shock to the system on a 144” composite wing! ;)

For the next 45 minutes I started just standing around watching the other pilots, the conditions around, and how planes reacted. I started to see a correlation as to what the plane was doing, what the pilot did, what the conditions were like at the time, and the results of the sailplane flight.

I was off on another launch. I felt a couple bumps, but no love, and the glider quickly came down. I attributed this to just plain ol’ sink coming through the field. Next launch. I got to launch the plane this time while he controlled it. Full pedal all the way through zoom! It launched right into a huge monster thermal right on the end of the turn buckle. (I love it when that happens!) He skied the plane out and then brought it back in quickly to make a launch setting adjustment. (right aileron)

Last launch of the day, about 300 ft., he brings it over to the left if us and handed me the transmitter. It was about 2pm and the winds were picking up. We noticed it was getting a little turbulent. I started feeling a lot of bumps and wags but then I got a hit and the nose just went up. I gave it full left rudder and got her turning in a circle. I noticed the nose did not drop through the turning. It may have leveled at times but was either going up or level. I knew I was in a thermal and started playing with elevator and rudder sticks. I now realize that how much stick you give it to make easy smooth consistent turns is simply a matter of experience to which you must practice practice practice. I skied the plane out till I could hardly see it. It was a great distance from me as well because the thermal was moving down wind and I was following it. At one point the plane went round and round in the thermal and I wasn’t giving it any input at all. It was like it was on autopilot. I feel that the higher you are in the thermal the easier it is to fly in it. When it started straightening out I then nudged it with a little rudder and got it back on track. Another thing I noticed is it’s much easier to fly in the top of the thermal than the middle or bottom of it because of how narrow the column is below. (Understanding how wide it gets at the top. At one point I was just doing laps back & forth across the sky at the top of the thermal and the glider was staying aloft just traveling in a straight line. That was the highlight of my day! :p

My next step is to practice low level thermalling where the column is narrow and turn radius’s are sharp. This is where the difficulty begins I believe.

What I learned is that thermalling is not a matter of simply following directions then going out and doing it but rather learning a lot of principles, tips and advice, then trying them out and seeing what works. Sometimes you win, sometimes you fail. That’s the fun in it. When you come down you launch again and try it again to see if something else works. It’s called a challenge for a reason and that’s what makes it fun. If you cored a thermal every time you launched then it would get boring really quick and I believe these are the lines you need to be thinking on. The best part for me was the comradery. I really enjoyed getting out with friends and flying with them sharing tips, experiences, and stories. I still have a lot to learn and am going to relax and enjoy the preocess.


Till the next flight!

[LVsoaring]

Looks like all the suggestions worked... I think we have another thermal addict! Welcome to the club TIA!

[sneasle]

full left elevator?

[TIA]

Yeah! As the plane is 90 degrees the elevator is now acting as the rudder. :p J/J.

Good catch! ;)

[fnnwizard]

I didn't see this post before...

Congrats TIA! And glad you finally taking up TD:D

Too bad I had my daughter there so couldn't concentrate 100% helping you.

I was giving her a bathroom break when you caught that monster thermal. Regarding the comment about using ail to level the wings, its not quite like that. More about using opposite ail to hold the bank angle or you will tumble into the turn.

Once you get used to the plane you can take out that additional 3/4 oz or so of lead we put in. I added that in the nose just in case, but you probably wont have a need for it.

T

[Jurgen]

....and slowing down a little bit when going down wind are good thermal indicators....Carefull for not stepping into the downwind/upwind syndrome here, or even when you did not, it could be understood in such a way ;)
BR, Jurgen.