Chris Foss Multi Phase

[Gary Binnie]

Hello folks,

I have started this thread as a build log as that is the intention!

I won a plan on eBay recently of the Chris Foss Multi Phase, a mid 1980's 142" span RES thermal soarer, and am very keen to build one.

The plan is quite good and I have some building notes and a couple of photographs but not much more than that at the moment.

I am hoping that a wing core supplier will get back to me as I would prefer to build it as it was designed and I don't have the facility to make the wings myself (or the skill probably!)

It strikes me as a simple design with the potential for good performance, I have written to Chris in the hope that he can help with the wings and any other advice that he might have.

Cheers

Gary

[seanpcola]

Beautiful lines. Was the original type wing built up?

[Gary Binnie]

Hi Sean,

Yes, I particularly like the tail, the fin and rudder are very tall.

The original design is for white foam veneered panels, the inner panels have a 1/4 x 1/4 full length spruce spar laid in at 1/3 chord with an 1/8 x 1/4 strip laid in slightly further back, you might just be able to see them in the photo above.

The outer panels use a 1/32 ply dihedral brace at the join which seems a bit thin to me but Chris know best!

It would be possible to use a built up wing but I would like to try to get hold of some cores (lazy!!).

Wing area is 1074 sq in (7.45 sq ft) with a wing loading of 8-9 oz sq ft. (which if my calculations are right gives a finished weight of 4 lb 3 oz).

Have added a photo for scale, I believe that this is Chris holding the model.

Cheers

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

Just a little update, the foam wing company have replied and we discussed options which included leaving off the 1/4 x 1" trailing edge stock with the veneer extending to the trailing edge, a much neater solution that I hadn't thought of.

With confidence that the wing panels will be on their way soon I can make a start on the fuselage and tail parts.

Not quite sure how this is going to turn out with nothing in my hands at the moment except a plan but I'm going to give it my best shot.

Cheers

Gary

[seanpcola]

I'm watching Gary. Really interesting design and we know you can pull it off. You'll probably find several things to update along the way.

Sounds like a good idea on the TE. May I suggest something? Since you will extend the sheeting all the way to the TE consider laminating .007 or .014 x 1/4" CF uni at the juncture of the top and bottom. That will really help insure a ripple free edge. Plus you can use the TE for slicing apples, tomatoes and such while at the field. :D

Still think it's a sweet looking layout.

Sean

[Gary Binnie]

I suspect the wing builder will do something like that, will ask him if I will be able to cut tomatoes with it! :D

Of the three 100S wooden gliders I have built the trailing edges were left fairly fat after sanding and I wondered about the effect on performance, not that I am after that as a sport flyer. It certainly contrasts with a fun fly twin jobbie that I built which has 1/4 square trailing edges (they say it reduces flutter).

Thanks for the encouragement, I might need it later! I'm not intending to update the design much unless it's something obvious, the elevator control rod is an aluminium tube, carbon might be lighter.

Forgot to mention that I ordered a fuselage building jig today, I have had trouble before with bent and twisted tail ends and this one is quite long and slender, will need extra care to keep it straight.

Posting the only photo I found of a Multi Phase on the net for inspiration, either he's short or this thing is big!!

Gary

[seanpcola]

Gary,

If your builder is doing the sheeting too then the CF inlay should be no problem. You want the TEs fairly sharp. Blunt works for power stuff but flutter should not be an issue with this bird.

I don't think the gent in the last photo is particularly short. You just have a lot of wing in your future! :D

[Gary Binnie]

I think he's about 5' 8", I am 5' 10" so I should just be touching the fuselage in the same picture. Will recreate it at the end for fun.

Hope I've got some wood lying about, suspect I haven't got enough of the right stuff though.

A materials list would be a logical step, will post it here and with the wing builder having the file it should not be difficult to make more of these.

I blame it on my dad for buying me a KeilKraft Comet (chuck glider)!

Gary

[GeeW]

Gary
Are we allowed to take a guess at the colour scheme on this one? :D
It's certainly an elegant looking beastie. Subscibed.

Gordon

[quigley257]

Very elegant looking ship!! :D

[GeeW]

Gary
Is your foam cutter person available for other people? If so could you either post it up or PM me please nicely as I have an urgent need of a set of foam wings.
Thanks

Gordon

[Gary Binnie]

Hi Gordon, you could guess the colour and you might be right!!

http://www.foamwings.co.uk/Pages/Site/Default.asp is the site for the wings, very helpful.

I'd like to get on with this but life is getting in the way as usual, hope to cut some wood this weekend.

Cheers

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

After much double checking of wing dimensions (Imperial to metric conversions) and finalising options I think the wings are good to be made.

Have compiled a rough materials list, most of the quantities are an overestimate, better to have too much than not enough! ;)

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

The fuselage building jig arrived but I could not get a base board for it as all the hardware shops are closed on Saturday around here, does this only happen in England?!! :rolleyes:

Will do a mini build thread on it for free when I get the board.

I should start by saying what you get in the box....erm...nothing, just a plan!! :D

Paid a visit today to my LHS to get some wood, didn't have everything that I wanted and paid more for it than from a wood supplier but I like to support them. Shame I'm not into trains, looks like they've got everything for 'chuffer fans' to me.

I started by marking out and cutting the 1/16 ply fuselage sides, just used carbon paper. The plan says to cut it up to align the rear parts but there's no need to do that. The rear sides have straight edges so they can be cut with a steel straight edge and a sharp knife, takes a while but the result is good.

Front fuselage sides will need cutting on the scroll saw tomorrow. Once they are done and joined to the rear sections I will sand the edges so that they are identical.

Rudder next, 3/8 soft balsa sheet, couple of razor saw cuts, done! There is potential for lightening holes in this or even a built up structure. I usually make the mistake of chamfering the leading edge (for range of movement) before cutting the hinge slots so I'm going to leave it square for the moment.

Fin box, 1/16th sheet with 3/8 x 1/2 leading and trailing edges. There will be an inner structure of 1/8 x 1/4 strip. The lower sheeting is 1/16 ply for the stab bellcrank housing, I'm thinking about aluminium bushes for the stab hinge as it could be a 'wobbly' area.

More tomorrow hopefully

Cheers

Gary

[Libelle201B]

For us North Americans, back in the 70's and into the 80's Chris Foss was to rc soaring in the UK, what Bob Dodgson was to rc soaring in the USA. Beautiful innovative designs way ahead of their time :)

[Gary Binnie]

And very simple as well, no doubt.

I am not familiar with Bob or the 'nostalgia' class gliders apart from what I've read on here, the Sagitta looks nice, might go for one later but last time I received a kit from the US the journey had turned it to matchwood (for 'fragile' read 'jump on it lots').

I built free-flight models until I was sixteen (1978) and then did no modelling at all until about 1992, so in the gap I missed the '80's.

I have written to Chris about this glider and his other early designs, suggesting that he adds a history page to his website because people are interested, no reply as yet but I'm sure that he is a busy man.

May as well plug his company because they are quality products IMO: http://www.chrisfoss.co.uk/

Mainly power stuff (I have a Wots Wot biplane), the two gliders have been in the range for a long time now. The Middle Phase 2 is available with a dihedral non-aileron wing for learning and an aileron wing version for later, the Phase 6 is a great sloper available with two wing sections, sport and 'try me'!

There was a 'Centi Phase' (100 inch span, geddit!), I was given a tatty one that I repaired and flew, it ended up in a smoking hole after I threw it off the slope without enough lift (ever done that?), tried to land it in a field half a mile away without success!

There were other 'Phases', Phase 4 & 5, Phase Lift (I think) and the Multi Phase was originally a 'standard' class glider (shorter span) but these are a mystery to me.

Might be using some glue later, danger!!

Cheers

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

Have joined the fuselage sides now and left them to set.

I built the fin box, this could be built two ways, either build the core and add the leading and trailing edges afterwards or build it all at once which is what I did.

Have left the second ply side off until the stab drive is worked out and fitted.

Next job will be to fit longerons to the fuselage sides.

Gary

[mhodgson]

I had one of these some 20 years ago.

It came as a plan pack with the wing panels, wing joiner, plan and tail belcrank if I recal.
It was the first model where I glassed the wing and it came out way too heavy. Despite that, it flew nicely.

You need to remember it was designed for a nice gentle hand tow where the tower could feel it up the line and modify his run accordingly.
That top spar is there to conter the compression of the top skin under flight loads.
The rear spar (in my opinion) was added to prevent the bending around the spoiler box and so jam the spoilers or force them open. Most/all of the bending loads are taken by the obeche skin.
If I built it today I would definitely upgrade the spar and the joiner as it used a 5/16th steel rod (same as on the 100" sagitta) for those 6ft panels.
The fuz should be glassed or covered in a fabric as mine sometimes split open on hard landings until I took off the solarfilm and solartexed it.

Save yourself some hassle and put a servo in each wing to directly control the spoilers.

For other info, There were Phase(s) 1 to 6 (all aerobatic slopers), the Phase Lift was fully flapped and aileroned thermal soarer, 15-20 years before most others were doing it (and no computer mixing- all mechanical). Not sure the original multiphase (100") was ever available. And of course the 100" centiphase.

[Gary Binnie]

Interesting stuff, thanks. What happened to your Multi Phase?

I only use bungee for launching and am always cautious at first, one first flight I pulled it back so little that the glider only got up to 40 feet or so and I had to land straight ahead!

I've just added the obechi lower longerons to the fuselage sides, need some spruce strip before I can go much further.

Gary

[mhodgson]

Planet earth got in the way one windy competition. The wing was too heavy for the rudder to manage in the turbulent conditions. I was going to cut chuncks out of the tip panels (pretend it was built up) too lighten it but never got around to it. After coliding with planet earth, only those tip panels and elevators were usable. They became a rather good bitsa sloper until a bloody rock jumped out and grabbed it. Oh well.

If you are bungeeing then I would be tempted to glass the inner panels and/or add a full length/full depth 1/16" ply spar/webb in the inner panel (simply lengthen the one stuck to the joiner box). The tips should be fine as they are.

[Gary Binnie]

We have modified the wing already, the main spar will be deeper and the veneer is being epoxy laminated and bagged to add strength. Will keep this one indoors on windy days.

How was the rudder control on normal days? Looks big enough.

Gary

[mhodgson]

Rudder control was fine, generally. As with any RES model, the lighter the tips the better. With mine you just had to think ahead a little, particularly when flying slow(ish).
Those that had been built properly that I saw fly were quite spritely, nice flat turns, quick when needed etc etc.
All in all if I was in need of a large RES ship this one would be on the list.

Mine actually flew very well in the wind, just didn't like turbulence because of the heavy tips.

[Gary Binnie]

That's good to hear.

I got the baseboard for the fuselage jig and put it together.

Things will progress slowly this week because of shift work but I'll do what I can.

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

Just a little progress this week:

Planed and sanded the rudder and cut hinge slots, also made an elevator bellcrank.

Started to lay in full length pull-pull rudder cable guides and cut out most of the formers.

Still waiting for some wood which is holding things up a bit now.

Not very exciting but I'm plodding along!

Cheers

Gary

[PizzaHunter]

Why do you use carbon bellcrank? I think that it would be better to use some ellastic material, like nylon or something similar.

[mhodgson]

Actually carbon is a good choice. The stiffer the bellcrank the better. I used Fiberglass PCB board on mine, shaped into a triangle for maximum stiffness. Any flex could result in inaccurate elevator movement, particularly at speed or on tow.

[Gary Binnie]

Agreed, and it is lighter as well. Very conscious that this glider has a long tail moment so I'm trying to keep it light at the back.

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

More progress now that I have the wood I needed.

Fuselage sides completed, very simple structure. I was tempted to join them but will wait for the wings to arrive to finalise the position of the joiner holes.

Tailplane blanks (more 3/8 sheet) were pinned together to cut the hinge and drive slots, hinge tubes fitted but I left the drive tubes as the ply facers would make sanding difficult. Much razor planing and sanding has them approaching a symmetrical section.

Fin box closed up, remembering to fit the bellcrank first!

Some weights for reference: Fin - 40g, Rudder - 16g, Stabs - 22g each.

Got some little jobs to do while I wait for the wings to arrive (stab drive pushrod etc) but not much, I could always finish the Albatross if I get stuck!!

Cheers

Gary

[mhodgson]

Just a thought.
If I recall the top of the fuselage is done with thick balsa with the grain running lengthwise.
On mine I believe I laminated 1/16" sheet (grain crosswise) underneath to prevent spliting, full length of the top.
That tail can cause quite a bit of torsional twist in the slender boom.

[Gary Binnie]

That's right, I've cut that 1/4 sheet piece already. A separate drawing is given for it on the plan but the length disagrees with the fuselage side view a little bit.

There is one spruce cross member near the tail for moral support!! I have wondered about the strength of the tail, might have a look at the weight of adding a 1/32 ply lamination (same as the bottom skin) bearing in mind that it is all behind the C of G.

In the building notes that I got with the plan an available fibre glass fuselage is mentioned, although the notes are not by Chris.

No reply from Chris so far.

Gary

[mhodgson]

Can't say as I ever recall a glass fus being available from Chris, though there were several fus makers who made usable examples of similar proportions.

Try 1/64" ply rather than 1/32". Lighter and it's only there to stop spliting. That said I found balsa a better choice as it seemed to glue better than ply to the balsa top piece.

[Gary Binnie]

I've spent a surprisingly long time on the tailplanes this week, trickiest problem is making the tube boxes accurately to line up with the bellcrank holes.

Ed's note: In hindsight it would have been far easier and more accurate to lay both tailplanes flat and add the brass tube and then cut in half and trim, then drill the bellcrank holes.

The plan calls for an 1/8 dowel at the leading edge with 1/32 ply faces, I found some bamboo skewers in the kitchen drawer and used one of them! It's tough stuff, ask my razor saw!.

The tailplanes are very fragile now after sanding, the trailing edges especially. Need to apply at least one coat of sanding sealer to strengthen them.

The wings are in progress many miles away in Scotland, I was going to wait for them before building the fuselage but I do need to see the fuselage taper to be able to trim the wing roots to fit so I will crack on with that part of the build.

Bringing the six foot building jig in from the garage might be a step too far for Mrs B, will find out very soon! :eek:

I laugh in the face of danger! ;)

GB

[fudi50]

Hi Garry,
First of all let me tell durung WW11 I was evacuated to Daventry had a 4.5 year childhood. Re Chris Foss or Fossy as I knew him we both beleonged to the Sussex flying Club based at Shoreham airport, as folk write Chriss was ahead of his time in designs I had to favorites the first a Phase Lift which I built bother vesions 120" and 151". When Chris brought out the Centi Phase a R/E 100" ship I probably built and wrecked 5 of them. Last year I advertised here in the states for NIB, used, broken or what ever Centi Phase I had one reply from Martin Vargas in Sacramento who told me he had a fuselage in his garage some where, he had this given to him whae he was 12. Three weeks later an exchange of cash and I had a fuselage plus a plan, two weeks later I sent him a picture of the finished model[the original was foam with obechi skins] mine is all built up I intend to fly in vintage class. I believe I have pictures under Centi Phase on RC Groups. Looking at your plans basic outlines are the same as all of his models large rudder area. Enjoy your build post update of build log.
David Alchin AKA The Brit
Modesto California

[Gary Binnie]

It's a small world David! Daventry is still there you will be pleased to know, my mum lived there until recently. My dad was also evacuated from London to a small village near Banbury (Kings Sutton) which is why I live where I do now (our family settled in Banbury).

Interesting info on Chris, I believe that he flies full size although I might be getting him confused with Dudley Pattison (of Flair).

His models certainly have distinctive tails, one disadvantage of the tall rudder is that if you happen to land upside down it gets ripped off of its hinges! I had to make a new rudder for my Middle Phase when I was learning on the slope. I land the right way up nowadays (mostly! :D )

I would like another Centi Phase, I crashed mine about 15 years ago, very rare now. Would love to see yours, why not post some photos in here?

The building jig will stay in the garage for another day as I have got up quite late and have to go to work in a bit.

Cheers

Gary

[fudi50]

Hi Garry
Re Daventry funny thing happened I joined the evacuee group at Grinley on the Hill and was looking for a little girl who lived next door to me in Daventry, low and behold after 66 years we made contact she lives in Detroit!! I have attached 2 pictures of my Centi-Phase, every body makes the comment about it not wanting to turn that it does not have enough dihedrial, for me as long as I keep the speed up and use elevator its Ok! a problem that was always there has not changed the canopy is brittle and breaks easy.
Say hi to mom and dad
David AKA El Britto
P.S thats my Graphite in the background flew this morning in wonderful California sunshine, eat ya heart out brother

[Gary Binnie]

Very nice.

I was lucky enough to spend a month at NAS El Centro in my RAF days, scorching weather and I managed to do some full size gliding at a place called Jacumba, flew a Blanik that was pegged out in the sand (no hangars).

Must crack on with this build.

Cheers

Gary

[prodjx]

That's looking good mate, that will make me speed up my Phase 5 build, cut the templates out yesterday for a foam wing, new E-374 root, old sym. tip. Dave

[mhodgson]

The Phase 5
Now there is one I want to build.
Had the Middle, got a Phase 6.
That lovely fus to build and carve, so satisfying and it just looks good. Better than any plastic wonder (In my opinion of course).

[Gary Binnie]

The Phase 5 looks very sleek, I'm tempted!!

I've only had a chance to do some building this afternoon, nice outside so I moved out there.

Joined the fuselage halves starting at the rear and moved progressively forward, adding formers. Finished with the hardwood noseblock which took some wrestling to pull the sides in. Leaving to set now.

I wouldn't attempt this without the jig, should have bought one of these years ago.

Cheers

Gary

[fudi50]

Hi Garry,
looking real good, you know I have been building for years without a jig relying on my eye balls but this build kinda makes me think at an advanced stage of life this should be the way to go. The only jig kit I have seen here is a magnet type and I was not impressed who puts your's out [Ripmax] I was given a "Grifter 3.4m] sailplane the other day been burning the midnight oil so it should be ready for test flying Tuesday, Story has it that about ten years ago in the UK during a comp the pilot or launcher built up so much tension on the line he was lifted off his feet ! I beleive there is a picture in a magazine, do you know of this it would be great to see such a pic
David
The Brit

[Gary Binnie]

Sounds like fun, I would have let go like the one and only time I had a go in a kite buggy! No, I haven't seen a photo of that but then I don't buy magazines any more (the loft floorboards are creaking under the weight of the ones that I have already).

The jig is a SLEC product, I got mine mail order from Sussex Model Centre. If you can find the right type of 'L' brackets you could make your own. I used to rely on a single line drawn on my building board for the fuselage centreline and then try to trap the sides with bean tins, books etc. Not very good. The clincher was that this Multi Phase fuselage is much longer than my board anyway and I knew that it would turn out bad if I tried my usual technique.

I see the jig, like my disc sander and scroll saw, as a small investment that makes the hobby more enjoyable and produces a much better model in the end.

I've added some 3/16 Obeche uprights behind some of the formers now, the plan notes say to add these to the fuselage sides first but when I've done that in the past the formers have not sat squarely across the fuse.

I could start looking at the radio installation, I've purposely left the bottom skin off for the moment to make servo fitting easier.

Thinking about a new 2.4 set, they seem to have the glitches ironed out of them now.

Cheers

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

It's my birthday today (thanks RC Groups for the e-mail reminder!) :D

To celebrate I sanded the hardwood top profile level and added 3/8 sheet cross grain per the plan.

Can't do much more tonight, I promised Mrs B to a rare meal out (local kebab shop suits me!) ;)

GB

[Gary Binnie]

The wing panels arrived safely today, I left strict instructions for Mrs B to check the package for damage which she did, the postman got a bit upset apparently. Just a few scuffs and holes in the outer card wrapping, everything is safe and sound. :cool:

Four top quality panels, will take photos tomorrow in the daylight.

My mobile phone rang at work and I didn't recognise the number, 'Hello Gary, this is Chris Foss, you wrote me a letter about the Multi Phase', crikey!!!

We had a great chat about all sorts of things including full size flying, I was right in thinking that Chris flies the big stuff as well.

He is not an RC Groups reader but I mentioned this thread if he was interested. What a nice friendly chap.

Only downer of the day was that I damaged one of the wafer thin tailplane trailing edges with the edge of the sand paper, repaired carefully and all ok now.

No excuses now that I've got all the major parts, still a lot of work to go but I will get there.

Cheers

Gary

[mhodgson]

With regards the thin tail trailing edge. Try this.
Cover the edge (top and bottom in two pieces) with some tissue applied with epoxy or cyano.
Epoxy or cyano on its own will be brittle. Tissue could be too flexible if applied with dope or pva.
You only need a strip about 1/2" to 3/4" wide along the very edge.

[Gary Binnie]

That's a good idea but they should be ok now as I have finished sanding them, I was using a sheet of wet and dry without a block and caught an edge, inattention on my part.

GB

[fudi50]

Hi Garry
happens all the time to me matter of fact I am revamping my 1/3 scale Russian AC-4 obechi over blu foam wings sanding T/E did same thing snagged the wet and dry ripped part of T/E off problem with this machine the T/E has a real camber I mean like [oops a little bit of London slipped in there] a 1/4" in 2" so repairing the camber took some finagaling to get back to scale.
Flew my Centi-Phase off the slope the other day for about 30 min, greased the landing but still the canopy broke what do I expect after 30+ years Hey say hi to Fossy for me the next time you comunicate.
Dave Alchin AKA The Brit

[prodjx]

Here's my Phase 5 fuse. BTW my mom once delivered a couple of P-47 Thunderbolt's from Republic to Newark, New Jersey to be shipped to you folk's, I just read that out of her diary of 1944.

[Gary Binnie]

Will do Dave, look after your 'Centi'.

Have you got a thread going on the Phase 5 Prod?

Must take some photos of the wings before it gets dark, I've got up super late today (shift change).

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

Some photos of the wings, sorry that they are a bit dark.

[Gary Binnie]

A little more progress tonight.

I've covered the tailplanes and rudder, cut out some wing tip lamination parts, glued them together and fitted them to the outer panels.

GB

[prodjx]

Oh I kind of forgot those P-47's had British Marking's on them. I'll probably skin the wing's for my Phase 5 next week.

[Gary Binnie]

More progress today, I went to another model shop a bit further away, came away a bit disheartened as I expected to get everything I needed but they have gone completely ARTF, not a single kit in the place.

I wanted an FM Rx but the answer was 'we only do 2.4 gig now', they had some crystals left over but we couldn't find a matching pair. :(

Never mind, I did get some new servos and batteries and I robbed a receiver from one model and a crystal from the other.

Fitted the servos, Rx and battery which are removable but it was easier without the bottom skin on.

Skinned the bottom of the fuselage with 1/32 ply (back in the jig) and added an extra lamination of 1/32 ply under the nose as described on the plan.

I built the radio hatch which is made from three laminations of 1/8 balsa, the first is spot glued to the fuselage.

Almost ready to sand the fuselage to section now, next job will be the wing joiners.

Cheers

Gary

[mhodgson]

If you are looking for some receivers, and servos for that matter, try GiantCod.co.uk. Nicely priced and the corona synth receivers have served me well (have 2) they do crystal ones as well. Great service to boot.

[Barnsey]

It strikes me as a simple design with the potential for good performance, I have written to Chris in the hope that he can help with the wings and any other advice that he might have.Just spotted this excellent build thread, Gary. I am mortified. Had to throw out a ton of old modelling stuff late last year, which included four sets of pristine condition, complete and original Multi Phase wing kits from Chris. All sixteen panels. :censored: it!

The Multi Phase is a superb performer. It would easily hold it's own against modern ships in competition but, the wing design can't cope with present day competition launch and landing stresses. I flew it's predecessor, the Hi Phase, another cracking performer, as well as a Centi Phase (my first ever soarer). Probably some Centi Phase/High Phase fuz's still lurking at the back of the barn, but the pile of spare wing set kits for these models went out with the Multi Phase wings last year. Didn't think there'd be any takers in this ARTF world, so...

If you remain bitten by the nostalgia bug, I can also highly recommend the Sagitta 900 you mention. It will take a strong launch, but use a normal straight rudder, not the aerodynamically counterbalanced one shown on the plan. A common mod by the comp pilots of the day, which included early F3J use. I flew an Aquila in the 100S and Classic Barcs events. It still uses its original counterbalanced rudder and shimmies violently at shimmy-limited max winch launch speeds. Great entertainment for fellow competitors but it plays havoc with launch heights. :D

I only use standard 35Mhz rx's. One type I've flown for years, in an Eliminator 134, is the standard GWS 8ch unit. I also use it in electric ships. Inexpensive and so far, for me, 100% glitch-free. Highly recommended if you haven't used 'em. Google reveals no shortage of 35Mhz rx's in the world yet!

Good luck with the build and the maiden.

Cheers, John

[Gary Binnie]

No!!!! Any idea which tip the wings went to!!! :rolleyes: :D

Oh well, never mind. I never (or very rarely) throw anything out which is why I can't move in my loft or garage!

Nice to know you think highly of the Multi Phase, I am intrigued by the other large designs, be nice to get hold of some plans, I don't even know what they look like.

There is an Eliminator and Phase Four plan on eBay at the moment, hope they go to good homes.

Won't be much progress over the next couple of days as I am on 12 hour shifts.

Cheers

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

Just finished two days of 12 hour shifts, my eyes are heavy!

Thought it would be a good time to tidy up and have a think about the next stages.

I'm thinking very carefully about cutting the wing joiner slot in the inner wing panels and other wing details. I need a bandsaw with a guide fence really but I don't have one, there are some at work but they are large industrial types with blades for cutting carbon.

Also having trouble sourcing hardwood and matching brass tube and steel joiner rod, will find some eventually.

All the wing panels have squared ends at the moment and will need chamfering for dihedral. No values are given apart from '5 inches at the tip with the inner panel flat' which I make 8.75 degrees by calculation. I double checked this by drawing it full scale on the back of the plan and made it 9 degrees which was probably the intention.

From the joiner drawing I make it 3 degrees for the inner panels. I'm quite aware that this joiner system was not designed for aerobatics or winch launching but I'm not planning to do either of those with this glider, a gentle bungee launch and get the deck chair out hopefully! :)

All good fun, the build is getting a bit heavy so I will probably take some of my other gliders out to keep my thumbs working.

Cheers

Gary

[Shedofdread]

Not spotted this thread before. Good to see 'old school' design revisited. IIRC the last time I saw one of these would have been in bits at the York Open (Elvington) c1990. Gentle hand tow + breezy day = broken Multiphase.

Upshot? - As I'm sure you will, do take care launching.

Have fun,

S

[Barnsey]

Nice to know you think highly of the Multi Phase, I am intrigued by the other large designs, be nice to get hold of some plans, I don't even know what they look like.There's no shortage of great designs from the "Did you build it yourself, mister?" era. Early years in BARCS (British Assoc. of RC soarers) was a period of seemingly endless innovation, brought about by the very simple competition rules used then. The US also produced a large range of superb soarers, including my favourite flying wing, the Windfreak. Excellent stuff from Europe as well, but the German construction techniques/skills made my eyes water :eek:.

I'll see if I can look up a few names for you to Google. Attached are a couple of snaps of a 'Windfreak' (the model, not Chris Bishop), and a BARCS Open class 'Montana', supported by its designer Andy Lewis, also clutching an all-moulded 'Pike + (later '90s F3J ship). I think the plans for most designs could be tracked down or are still available from plans services here and the US. All of 'em wonderful performers when dialled in.

I might be able to help you out with 5/16ths joiner rod if you have trouble finding it. Assuming I can find it. You might know this, but it's case-hardened wire which needs a Dremel cut-off disk or similar to cut it. If you use something you can cut with a Junior hacksaw, the Multi-Phase's maiden bungee launch will see both wing panels adopt a permanent 30 degree dihedral angle within a second or so of leaving your grasp. :D

John

[mhodgson]

Simple rule for dihedral.
1" per foot of span under each wingtip. Not very scientific but seems to work well.

If you can't find joiner stuff try 'Gliders distribution'. They sell sprint streel strip with appropriate brass box. Not what is on the plan but a good substitute.

[Gary Binnie]

Thanks guys, the Gliders Distribution tip was very useful as they have the matching brass tube and steel rod, I've ordered from them.

Still looking for hardwood, the plan says Obeche but I would have thought Spruce would be ok.

The Montana looks nice, very similar to the Multi Phase.

All quiet here, just me and the dog!

GB

[Gary Binnie]

I've spent the afternoon out in the garden final shaping the nose and finishing the radio hatch, all gone well.

GB

[Gary Binnie]

I was feeling brave and decided to cut the slots for the tip panel dihedral braces!

I used my scroll saw freehand (along a drawn line) and if I'm very careful I should be able to do the same for the joiner structure once I've built it. The blade only cuts about 1/64 wide, I opened the slots to 1/32 using wet and dry paper folded over.

I needed to chamfer the panel ends to 4.5 degrees each so I popped in to work where we have a nice big disc sander with an adjustable table, job done. The night shift were surprised to see me!

I'm a little bit stuck now waiting for wing joiner tubing etc. the rear fuselage needs much more sanding to get it near the section shown on the plan which is not easy as the ply sides are very tough.

GB

[fudi50]

Hi Garry
Every work place should have model equipment to use Being a metal polisher/chrome plater I had most things in my shop so when building my 1/4 scale Century nboat all fittings were polished and Chrome Plated just like full size,
You are doing a fine job that is what I like to see some one who takes time to make joints meet acurately doubt we will see much spackle used here
El Britto formaly

[Gary Binnie]

Right on! I always check out the potential aeromodelling facilities at a new workplace before committing to employment, gotta get your priorities right!

I have a little goal to make every build better than the last, I think that it is mainly patience that comes with age rather than becoming more skilled. I really was useless at woodwork at school, I remember the teacher rolling his eyes at my creations!

The wings were a fair investment and I'm living in fear of making a stupid mistake and scrapping a panel hence the cautious building. I've not kept a tab on expenses but they are mounting, better remember to turn the Rx on before pinging it up the bungee!

Spackle is a great word, I've got a pot of lightweight filler that keeps drying out.

Got a little bubble in one of the wing veneer skins, not sure what to do with it.

GB

[Shedofdread]

'Got a little bubble in one of the wing veneer skins, not sure what to do with it'

Very sharp knife, slit along grain, inject either thin epoxy / wood glue / copydex (depending on how skins bonded on original) and weight down while cure.

OLD SKOOL!

S

[Gary Binnie]

Thanks, I've done just that. It was only a small bubble but visible.

I had to take a picture for framing this morning and I wondered if they would have some hardwood that I could use for the joiners, sure enough I came away with a 4 foot offcut of Ramin for £3! It's slightly oversize but that's good.

GB

[Gary Binnie]

I was looking at fitting the fin and there was something not quite right at the back end which became very apparent when I looked a bit harder!

I noticed that the fuselage sides did not extend to the rear of the fin spar, the reason was that the lower fuselage longerons do not extend to the tail, it's there on the plan to see. This also accounts for why I noted that the top rear sheeting was short in post No 30, sorry Chris!!

Fairly easily fixed but I will have to shorten the elevator pushrod by 1/2 inch.

Doh!

[Barnsey]

Gary - I've found a piece of high tensile 5/16ths and matching tube, so if you need it PM me an address (+ the lengths needed for the Hi Phase).

Treasure the ramin. I haven't seen it for some time. I used to use it in place of spruce for spars, etc, because of the poor quality of spruce available locally.

Nice fuselage mod. :D

John

[Gary Binnie]

Thanks for the offer John but I should have some on the way now. Have you got any plans of the Hi Phase or Phase Lift?

Yep, it's nice the Ramin, endangered tree species apparently, too many people making enormous model gliders! Got enough to last for a very long time.

I've saved myself some nose weight by moving the fin to where it should be, in my defence it was shown as dotted lines on the plan in a 'busy' area, should have looked harder. :rolleyes: :D

I was up in the loft earlier looking for an old RCM&E mag when I found a half page review of the Centi Phase kit, think it was 1979, was supplied with a fibre glass fuselage. The one I had was wooden and crunched as advertised when the end came, bless it! Maybe I'll scan the review and post it, can't see the harm.

I've shortened the elevator push rod (just snipped one of the clevis wires and re soldered it) and cut one of the main joiner slots which went ok.

Cheers

GB

[Gary Binnie]

Here's one for you guys, the towhook on the plan has a very short horizontal length, I have a very similar one on an old Thunder Tiger glider that I was going to use but one glider I have that has a very long horizontal part seems to stay on the line for much longer than the others, does it make a difference or is it just related to positioning?

'|_ 'or '|___' is what I mean.

Gary

[fudi50]

hI gARRY
POST THE REVIEW WOULD BE INTERESTING TO READ FOR ME. i WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION [OLD AGE MAY ALTER] THAT THE KIT ONLY CAME WITH f/g FUSE AND FOAM WINGS
dAVID

[Gary Binnie]

OK, here it is. It's on a loose single page for some reason, perhaps I was given it with the model. Fairly sure mine had a wooden fuselage, perhaps it was plan built, big shame that I have not still got it.

No progress on the Multi today.

Cheers

Gary

[Barnsey]

hI gARRY
POST THE REVIEW WOULD BE INTERESTING TO READ FOR ME. i WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION [OLD AGE MAY ALTER] THAT THE KIT ONLY CAME WITH f/g FUSE AND FOAM WINGS dAVIDNothing wrong with your memory, David. The glass fuslage and foam wings were very good quality. A well-mannered delight to fly. The lightweight polyester resin fuselage was surprisingly robust, not a crack in it at the time of the ships demise a few seasons and comps later. Failure point was at the end of the very short 1/16ths ply joiner-box spar, which is where one panel folded.

As the early 80's photo shows, I tried curly up wing tips to enhance soaring performance. After several seasons I'd learned enough about soaring to realise they should have been fitted to the pilot.

John

[Gary Binnie]

Great photo!

I've seen cardboard winglets taped to old full size gliders on the competition grids, and a traffic cone wedged on the nose of a two-seater, can't say that we don't have a sense of humour!

Any thoughts on my question about tow hooks? Curiosity killed the cat!

GB

[Shedofdread]

'Any thoughts on my question about tow hooks? Curiosity killed the cat!'

If you make the horizontal part about 1/2", you won't be too far out. Check your LHS for Kavan tow hooks - not dear and saves the hassle.

S

[mhodgson]

Longer tow hooks do help models stay on the line longer.
Shorter tow hooks came into vogue when people wanted to get off the line more quickly in competitions.

Keep the hook longer for bungees. You can always shorten it latter, if you want.

[Gary Binnie]

Thanks, I did wonder if there was something in it, there is a definate difference between two wooden 100S models that I fly. I guess that it would make sense not to have the horizontal part extending behind the C of G, don't know if it is coincidence but the back of the hook and the C of G coincide on the Multi Phase plan.

Excuse my ignorance but why would a pilot want to leave the line early in a competition? Most full size glider pilots hang on until the back release mechanism fires for maximum height, not the correct technique as it can cause problems for the winch driver releasing the cable under tension.

I fly a full size Mini Nimbus which has always back released early on the wire, extending some positive flap helps a bit at the top of the launch.

I'm waiting for wing joiner metal now which is holding things up slightly but then again there's no rush.

Cheers

Gary

[mhodgson]

Most thermal comps are based on flying the longest time within a specified time slot. The model cannot be towed before the slot starts and the flight time does not start until the model is off the line, so any time spent on the line is effectively deducted from you total possible time.
He who spends 5 seconds on the line can beat he who spends 10 seconds on the line, assuming both make it to the end of the slot and land on the last second of course.

World class F3J flyers are doing 3-4 second tows these days.

[Gary Binnie]

Crikey! Think I will stick to my one minute launches.

It's serious stuff at the top of the sport.

Meanwhile at the bottom of the sport I have been applying sanding sealer to the fuselage, not sure how I'm going to finish it yet. It might be strong enough just to spray it, my Sunrise is finished like this and it only has 1/32 ply sides.

GB

[mhodgson]

You should really wrap it in some sort of cloth.
Nylon or glassfibre (even tissue) applied with dope, a varnish or epoxy. If not then solartext.
Mine was solarfilmed originally and burst open at the nose several times before recovering in Glass/epoxy- learnt a valuable lesson with that model and wooden fus.

[fudi50]

You guy's are all talking in reference to man on man wishe they did that here more in the states, to the best of my knowledge no comp on the west coast are man on man they are all time start upon release. I fly open class with a Grahite ideal launch full pedal ease ar apex full pedal down and ping off the line for that extra zoom launch 80 100ft, tow hook length no problem [for me] just as long as it is in the correct position relevent to C/G.
Hey Garry my kids are here on a visit from Jolly ole Blighty they have had typical UK weather rain!!!! I have withdrawal pains from lack of flying.
The Brit

[Gary Binnie]

Yep, pretty soggy here as well but at least they will feel at home!

What I will probably do is weigh everything once it's almost complete and see how much spare there is for finishing.

Had to do a few hours of work tonight so I took the plan and the Ramin stock in and had some more fun with the disc sander. My scroll saw will just cut this if done very slowly, not bust a blade yet!

Happy Easter

Gary

[PeteMillis]

Hi Garry,
First of all let me tell durung WW11 I was evacuated to Daventry had a 4.5 year childhood.<snip>David Alchin AKA The Brit
Modesto California

Ahh, Daventry - that's where my Grandmother lived until she died a few years ago! It was a little place called Moreton Pinkney, and if I remember correctly, it was 5 The Manor or something like that, under an archway with an old gatehouse, and up a small winding hill!

Off topic, I know, but it's bringing back memories!

Pete
Sussex

[Gary Binnie]

May as well wander OT for a bit Pete as I'm stuck for bits! I was hoping the wing joiner material would arrive for the Easter weekend. Been getting some Brownie points instead by doing domestic jobs. :eek: :D

In all the years I've lived in this area I don't think I've ever been to MP, it's only about 15 miles away. I used to ride through the Northamptonshire countryside with the local motorbike club and there are some very nice hidden parts, still got my bikes but not much time to get out on them any more.

Might go for a drive later to check out a sloping hill just South of Leicester.

Cheers

Gary

[PeteMillis]

haha, I hate waiting for things to arrive! Last week was bad waiting for bits, and also trying to do my writing, that I ended up taking a break and and having a mass tidy up of the kids' bedrooms. Not sure I earned any points though - I think it was more a case of reducing my points debt :)

I've just been looking on Google maps at the sat views of the place where my Grandmother lived - doesn't seem to have changed much, just more cars really, and some houses in the area sprouting conservatories. there's some lovely countryside around the area.

Looking forward to seeing more of your glider developing - will be keeping an eye on this thread certainly.

I'm into bikes too - but enduro bikes rather than sports or road. Just in the middle of getting my KTM MOTd and taxed again after it's been on a SORN for a couple of years.
Pete
Sussex

[Gary Binnie]

Well the joiner tubing and steel rod arrived although they did not match. By turning down (emery cloth and a pillar drill) the 8mm steel rod I got it to fit inside some K&S 11/32 tube that was in stock at my LHS, a bit of a saga but I got there in the end.

Made the other hardwood joiner block and cut the slots for the tube, I sandwiched them with ply (1/16 back, 1/32 front) and then expoxied the tube in place. I was worried about epoxy getting in to the outboard ends of the tube so I sealed them with masking tape. Going to leave it all to set overnight. I tested the epoxy on some white foam to make sure it is safe for later.

I did some eBay surfing over the Easter break and found a plan for the Chris Foss Force Four (not Phase Four interestingly) and it came in the post today.
It's a nice little two channel sloper, good for a beginner. A project for a rainy day in the future.

Cheers

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

I cut the joiner tube in half and faced the ends on the disc sander, top tip - don't stick your knuckles in the sanding disc, ouch!! ;)

Marked out the cut line for the joiner and then took a deep breath before very carefully cutting the slots with my scroll saw. Turned out ok thankfully.

I've epoxied the joiners in which was a bit of a messy job and the front and rear portions of the wing wanted to sit at different levels but it's all good now.

Hopefully it won't take to much sanding to blend the joints to the veneer skins.

Next step will be to fit the fuselage portion of the joiner tube and chamfer the wing root ends for the fuselage taper and dihedral angle.

Cheers

GB

[Gary Binnie]

Another deep breath (after some measuring) and I drilled the holes for the fuselage part of the joiner tube, have had to open it a little bit as it was neither exactly level or at a right angles to the fuselage centreline. The error is very small but the tube is so short compared to the wing span that any minor angle off will affect the rigging.

I won't glue the tube in until I've chamfered the root ends and I will glue it in the jig with both inner panels at the same dihedral angle.

Another cheap eBay purchase came through the post today, 'Radio Control Thermal Soaring' by George Stringwell, 300 pages of fascinating stuff published in 1981. I now know what a Hi Phase and Phase Lift look like as they are both in there. Read the book or carry on building? It's a tough choice so I'm doing both!

It was nice to slide the wing panels on for the first time, even Mrs B said that it looks like a glider now (a rare word of encouragement!)

Cheers

GB

[Gary Binnie]

Realising that I had all the major parts I thought that I would weigh everything to see if it was on track.

Fuselage, joiner rod, Rx, servos and battery = 616g

Fin and rudder (covered) = 62g

Tailplanes (covered) = 60g

Right inner wing panel = 266g

Right outer wing panel = 150g

Left inner wing panel = 274g (a big rough wad of filler to be sanded off)

Left outer wing panel = 150g

I make that a total of 1578g or about 3lbs 6oz. Only things missing are the spoilers, elevator push rod and final finishing/covering etc. Noseweight is an unknown quantity at the moment.

I calculated the design weight at 4lb 3oz (weight is not given but the wing area and loading are) so I think that I'm well on track.

GB

[Gary Binnie]

Sorry if I am stringing this part of the build out but I am taking my time to get a really nice fit of the inner wing panels.

Had to work today but I took the fuselage and inner panels with me and worked on them after the shift. Using the big disc sander I set the table up for 3 degrees dihedral and set the mitre fence to 2 degrees (which was a guesstimate).

The first panel I trimmed was almost sanded the wrong way, :eek: , very easy to get it wrong when tired but it went well in the end. The fit is pretty good now but there is still a slight gap at the trailing edges, think I will fix the fuselage brass tube in place and then 'polish' each panel until it is 'spot on'.

I wouldn't like to try this using a sanding block, the big disc sander is ideal.

Once I've got the trimming sorted out there are still a few jobs left to be done on the wing root. A short section of dowel needs to be fitted in front of the spar for the wing retaining hooks, a 1/32 ply root facing rib needs to be added and a 12 SWG wire and tube needs to be added for the incidence locator near the trailing edge.

I'm a little bit unsure about how to do the incidence locator, there are no details on the plan apart from its position chordwise. It's not structural just there to fix the incidence, another bridge to cross! The three 100S wooden gliders that I have built all use two joiner rods so this is a new way of doing it for me.

When I first looked at the plan I thought 'looks easy enough', not so! It's the attention to small details that makes the difference between something I am happy with and something that is not quite right.

Very glad that I did not join the outer panels on earlier despite the temptation, I keep scraping the tail of the fuselage on the ceiling every time I turn it over!

Cheers

Gary

[fudi50]

Hi Garry
Looks like you are coming along great me I am thinning out my stuff I am so far behind I have my boat + three T/D ships to build, I just posted an add to sell my Graphite and my Centi Phase.
Hey watch that ceiling could cause a problem wiv da wiff
David

[Gary Binnie]

I hope they both go to good homes.

The ceiling is that spiky Artex stuff, doesn't like ply or balsa! No progress today with the build due to work.

Cheers

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

Fantastic weather and a couple of days off work so I moved out into the garden.

I set the jig up and dry fitted the fuselage joiner tube and wings, I tacked the tube with cyano when I was happy with the position and then built a hardwood house around the tube. Splodged epoxy in and let it set for a couple of hours.

Once it was dry I took the wings off and sanded down about 1/16 inch of surplus brass tube so that it was flush with the fuselage sides. I then cut some 1" long holes in the root foam for hardwood wing hook dowels and fixed them in.

Next job was to make two 1/16 ply root ribs, I started by drilling the 8mm joiner hole threaded them along the joiner then drew round the aerofoil section, easier than drilling the hole last! Also drilled small holes for the spoiler cables. Can't fit the root ribs yet as the inner panels need a tiny trim on the disc sander to butt flush with the fuselage sides.

Thought I would throw it all together for inspiration, it's certainly on the large side!!

Cheers

Gary

[Gary Binnie]

Thought I'd better post what I've done before I forget.

Root ribs fitted after a small adjustment to the chamfer.

Incidence tubes fitted, I settled on a 2" 12 swg tube in each wing in the absence of details on the plan.

Fuselage sides trimmed to match the root aerofoil and then sheeted the centre section.

Inner and outer wing panels joined.

Tow hook fitted, I went for a short one in the end as according to the thermal soaring book I got this is better for hi-start/bungee launches. The theory is that a long hook holds on to the line longer and with a bungee launch the glider might actually be descending at the top of the launch. The book suggests that a pennant is tied to the end of the rubber section to see when it starts to descend and that's the time to release.

I'm currently drilling holes and slots in the fuselage sides for the wing retaining hooks and spoiler cables.

GB

[wixy3]

Gary ,Chris Foss will be a competitor at Round 1 f3j At Marsh Gibbon 26/04/09 near Bicester ,just in case you fancy meeting him.wixy

[fudi50]

Hey Wick
If you see Chris Foss can you show him this picture and see if he can figure out who I am, The Yhaoo was my own design 2m As you can see greatly influenced by Chriss
If you noticed in this section I posted recent pictures of my Centi-Phase.

[Gary Binnie]

Thanks Wixy,

It's a great shame but I work permanent weekends now so sadly I won't be able to get to Marsh Gibbon which, equally frustrating, is only 15 miles from me.

Would have been great to meet Chris, he was genuinely interested in my project when we spoke on the phone.

I've fitted the wing retaining hooks now and had another weigh up, still 1600g or about 3lb 9oz. Certainly feels heavy in the hand even though it's well below the design weight, I am used to smaller, lighter 100S gliders.

CofG is about 50% chord at the moment so it will need some noseweight but not much hopefully. I can lighten the rear fuselage a bit as I have not rounded it quite as much as drawn on the plan, the cross section says 'round off as shown to keep tail section light'. More sanding!!

Starting to think about finishing now, I'm worried about how exactly to cover the wing panels. I've planned all along to use film which I am ok with but I usually tack the corners and edges with the iron but that won't work, I'll have to work from the middle out. Trying to avoid 'into wind' overlaps, maybe I'm worrying too much but I don't want to spoil it!

Cheers

Gary

[mhodgson]

A couple of thoughts about covering.
Since you need some nose weight, how about glassing the front part, use acrylic varnish from Homebase or B&Q if you don't want the hassle of epoxy- might as well make the weight work for you.

As for the wings, I have covered veneered wings using sticky back vinyl on several occasions. Works a treat, goes on easily and there are some interesting colour scheme possibilities. It is a little heavier than film but not so as you'd notice when flying. And being a little thicker means it hides some of those blemishes film always seems to find and display so anoyingly.
It will even respond to heat stretching around the tips, though you could use film for those bits.

You could try tissue (or even glass), again I would use a varnish rather than dope for obvious reasons and then spray paint.

If you go the film method I find tacking it around the edge first then working from the middle with a heat gun/hairdrier and soft cloth works best. Heat up a part and as it shrinks rub it down with the soft cloth. I have found that if not tacked down at the edges it can shrink too much and give you lots of horrible wrinkles.

You could try solarKote or fibafilm which are polyester based (I think) and not as flexible as solarfilm. As a result I find they go onto sheeted structures a little more easily, with less wrinkles (though Fibafilm needs baslalocing first).

Also when filming I do the bottom first but leav the last inch or two of the TE uncovered, I then do the top wraping it around and under the LE and TE then finish the TE off. That way there are no into wind overlaps.

[Gary Binnie]

All food for thought, I've got a Flair Albatross fuselage to finish as well, it's really not my favourite part of building!!

Maybe I'll get some glass and have a practise on the Albatross and see how it turns out.

Just been looking at the Solarfilm instruction video again, the secret with sheeted surfaces seems to be stretching it as you go and trying to avoid air bubbles (which I did get on the tailplanes but fixed).

I had a look in my covering materials box, got Solafilm, Solartex, Solartrim, Fibafilm, Litespan and even some Nylon.

Vinyl film sounds interesting, a lot of people use brown paper and thinned white glue, never tried it myself.

Cheers

Gary

[fudi50]

Hi Garry.
I have used with great sucess a product called Deft I'm sure the same product is available in the UK Art Hobby owner/distributer of Polish made models all of which are constructed with Polish Popla over foam, is the one that advocates the Deft product via a rattle can. I personaly use it from a can painted on with a foam brush [semi gloss] rubbed down with 320 Wet and Dry two some times three coats lasts at least a season and then a quck rub down and re-do.
I have attched a picture of my scratch built Baby Albatross fuse done the same way but with more coats and a final finish of gloss so far has endured my garage of record tempratures in excess of 100 degrees over the past 2 years.
The Brit
David