Swim or drown......

[first04seconds]

Only flying experience into helis is Eflite's smallest micro heli (Blade mCX ) so with that said I have proceed to damage the just newly purchased Eflite 400 3D to some $125 in parts .....and best part is that it was all done within the 4 seconds.......any suggests to help understand that first 12" off the ground are all welcomed....My dealer suggest that two wooden dial rods and attaching plastic golf balls creating a cross brace under the heli.....and just focusing on making the heli not hoover but rather move around and getting it to move just off the ground and back down........what about spending $120 for a trainer program which has its own controller how true or those software programs......granted I have already spent that in the first attempt but have given the 400 3D much more respect of its power.....enough of that thanks in advance.....

[Nubee]

yaaa, you need to get some training gear. All LHS have these,they typically are fiber rods and ping pong type balls ( very lite wt.) golf balls are too heavy.Then practice doing buni hops.
Also recommend check out a web site called ( Nuttcaze.com ) he has put together some real fine videos for beginners and advanced tuning and trials . I have learned alot from him as well. good luck

[krefi]

You don't need to spend a bunch of money for a good computer simulator. You can download version 0.9 of Heli-X (http://www.heli-x.net/) for free. And I assume if you have a B400 you have the DX6i. You can use your DX6i to fly in a simulator with a $10 USB adapter.

[jasmine2501]

Plastic "practice" golf balls are perfect actually, not too heavy, and the big holes allow you to make them roll on the rods for some nice rolling training balls (See photo). You need simulator time before you try this again! The free simulators can help, but for frustration-free setup and good physics, the ones like RealFlight (I use) and Phoenix are really good. Everything I know I learned in RealFlight before trying on my real helis.

It makes the difference between a maiden flight like yours, and one like mine...
http://www.vimeo.com/1816679

[jasmine2501]

BTW, check the other videos my account for a whole boat-load of videos about how to re-build your Blade 400... I went idle-up into a fence and destructed the whole thing, so decided to do the community a good one and make rebuild vids.

[Skarn]

Hey bro,

Yes definitely get a sim. There is a nice free one over at helifreak in the simulators section. Not much bells and whistles, but the flying dynamics are good for a 450 sized heli.

Also I highly recommend you go through RADDs School of Rotary Flight. Just search on those exact words and you'll find it.

Good luck!
Skarn

[grnbrg]

Yes definitely get a sim. There is a nice free one over at helifreak in the simulators section. Not much bells and whistles, but the flying dynamics are good for a 450 sized heli.

Also I highly recommend you go through RADDs School of Rotary Flight. Just search on those exact words and you'll find it.+1

Don't even bother trying to fly the 400 again without a good 10 hours on a sim. Skarn was referring to HeliSim RC (http://www.marksfiles.net/HeliSim) -- free, and more than adequate to fly with. You'll also need a $10 USB adapter (http://store.rcsupersales.net/servlet/-strse-2656/USB-GWS-SIMULATOR-CORD/Detail) to plug your DX6i into the sim. Note that the GWS adapter is preferable to most of the others.

Once you do look at flying the '400 again, put some training balls on it, and make sure that it's dead calm -- a gym is ideal for the first few flights.

Good luck, and keep us posted.


grnbrg.

[ifoguy]

$125 in parts .....and best part is that it was all done within the 4 seconds
Welcome to the world of R/C helicopters! :D

Although it's certainly possible to learn to fly using a model helicopter and training gear, my preference would be to learn on a simulator. After about 3 years (and thousands of dollars) in the hobby I've learned that it is both faster and cheaper to learn on the simulator.

I used a simulator to learn to hover upright in all four orientations. On my first flight with a model I was able to hover the model in all four orientations and keep it within the bounds of a basketball court. I never needed training gear. This 13 year old:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1002901

seems to have had a similar experience. I practiced on a simulator for 20 minutes a day for 3 months before I could hover in all four orientations. I'm old and creaky. I've seen posts indicating that others have learned in less time.

There are lots of good simulators. Real Flight is the most popular. Right now, the previous version, 3.5 is a bargain for $120.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNYN1&P=0

P.S.: Mode 2 = "Throttle on the left" and is the USA standard. Europe is different.

[Blade_Killer]

Only flying experience into helis is Eflite's smallest micro heli (Blade mCX ) so with that said I have proceed to damage the just newly purchased Eflite 400 3D to some $125 in parts .....and best part is that it was all done within the 4 seconds.......any suggests to help understand that first 12" off the ground are all welcomed....My dealer suggest that two wooden dial rods and attaching plastic golf balls creating a cross brace under the heli.....and just focusing on making the heli not hoover but rather move around and getting it to move just off the ground and back down........what about spending $120 for a trainer program which has its own controller how true or those software programs......granted I have already spent that in the first attempt but have given the 400 3D much more respect of its power.....enough of that thanks in advance.....

this is why a lot of us recommend getting the Honey Bee FP before getting a CP to learn on, you would have had a lot more fun in the first 4 sec of "flight"

[Skarn]

this is why a lot of us recommend getting the Honey Bee FP before getting a CP to learn on, you would have had a lot more fun in the first 4 sec of "flight"

BK: Why would he have had a lot more fun? A FP heli is no easier to fly than a CP heli....so he would have still crashed.

BUT I will give you this....it would have been a LOT cheaper to fix and easier too.

BUT, we need to remember that he already has his B400 so there really is no point in bringing up different heli's. ;)

Skarn

[Blade_Killer]

BK: Why would he have had a lot more fun? A FP heli is no easier to fly than a CP heli....so he would have still crashed.

BUT I will give you this....it would have been a LOT cheaper to fix and easier too.

BUT, we need to remember that he already has his B400 so there really is no point in bringing up different heli's. ;)

Skarn
chances are he wouldnt have any damage at all and he'd still be learning instead of waiting for parts and spending a $125......

And he might want to think about purchasing a $90 HBFP (instead of $125 for parts) and learning on it, saving a lot of money and down time, then when he can actually fly the FP go back to the B400 with confidence.

[jasmine2501]

Simulator would have the same effect, and much longer-term usefulness.

[Blade_Killer]

Simulator would have the same effect, and much longer-term usefulness.

a sim is good, but doesnt reproduce real life as accurate as real life.........

[jasmine2501]

I think a simulator reproduces a Blade 400 more accurately than a fixed-pitch reproduces a Blade 400...

[arbilab]

Seems to me MCX to CP is too big of a step to expect not to stumble. Their flight characteristics bear no relation to each other.

I don't know to what extent sims duplicate that first foot of elevation and the randomness of ground effect. With the second-easiest heli (V4) I still have issues with takeoff. Least bit odd, landing is twice as stable, don't know why that is.

Catch with the class helis, they're much more elegant but much more frangible.

[jasmine2501]

Seems to me MCX to CP is too big of a step to expect not to stumble.

Not if you have a simulator and actually practice with it. RealFlight is pretty good at simulating the level take-off. The main issue with transitioning from the ground to the air is that the helicopter is sitting on a level surface, and if you want to hover over one spot, the helicopter will not be level. The problem with simulators is that they can be misused, played like a game, rather than a learning tool. If someone has the proper discipline, I don't see any reason they couldn't jump from the simulator to a CP heli without practicing on any real helis before that. Most people start with a coaxial, and some people are able to translate the similarities between coaxials and CPs while ignoring the differences, while other people are thrown off by the differences. Either way, the simulator can address that issue - if it is a good one (like, not FMS)

[willhaney]

Well put, jasmine.

[arbilab]

Yeh, I meant from craft to craft, not counting sim time which is highly advisable.

[Blade_Killer]

I think a simulator reproduces a Blade 400 more accurately than a fixed-pitch reproduces a Blade 400...

:confused:

wha?

if you can fly the snot out of a FP then the B400 will be a lot easier when you're ready

[heli_addict]

Certainly, mastering a FP will help, but I think the statement that "a simulator reproduces a Blade 400 more accurately than a fixed-pitch" is still correct. You won't be able to practice your inverted hovers very easily with a FP ;-)

[Blade_Killer]

true but if he's crashing in the first 4 sec then he isnt going to be practicing inverted flight for many many many months, so thats all moot.
Learning basic flight on a FP will be cheaper and faster then learning basic flight on a B400, thats just the way it is, theres no dispute. But of course the OP can do what he likes.....
Crashing a FP costs little to nothing in parts cost and set up, that means more stick time.........quicker learning over all........

[krefi]

I think it's important to remember that you're supposed to be having fun. If you're not, you'll lose interest and abandon the hobby. In my opinion, crashing isn't fun, but neither is flying the simulator. You need to find the balance of real world vs. sim world that works for your own interests, goals, and bank account.

[arbilab]

Everything's a compromise.

[ifoguy]

You need to find the balance of real world vs. sim world that works for your own interests, goals, and bank account.
You're absolutely right. The point of the hobby is to have fun. And every person has a different perspective as to what's "fun". That's why there's no single "best" way to learn to fly.

As for me, I enjoy flying the simulator the most. I've owned and flown (in order) a Hirobo Sky Robo (coaxial), Esky Honey Bee CP2, Century Hummingbird 3D Pro, Align T-Rex 450 SE, Esky Honey Bee FP. I've put in over 1200 flights total on them. But today, I choose to fly the simulator 99.9% of the time.

I've learned that the thing that I enjoy most is pushing the limits of my abilities. I enjoy jumping right to the maneuver that's giving me difficulty and trying it over and over again until I've mastered it. I like flying low (10 feet high) and within confined areas (basketball court) because that's where I'm really forced to control the helicopter. I'm an Alan Szabo Jr. wanabe without Alan Szabo Jr. talent. What I do on the simulator would be dangerous and irresponsible in real life. :eek:

I love flying the simulator. I can fly every day, rain or shine, winter or summer. I have access to all kinds of aircraft, from micros to 90 size nitros. Repairs are free and instantaneous.

But that's just me. Every person has to figure out what's right for them.

[Skarn]

Learning basic flight on a FP will be cheaper and faster then learning basic flight on a B400, thats just the way it is, theres no dispute.

Ahh my friend I will indeed dispute the bold part of your statement. I have seen first hand what trying to learn on ANY micro heli, FP or not, can do to a newbie....so many people have given up in frustration because they are so hard to learn on. With a decent 450 size or larger heli, they won't crash as often thus more stick time thus less frustration.

I got my neighbor into heli's.....he got the HBFP. He crashed it so often and gave up. Then he got a TREX 450sa from an estate sale for VERY cheap. I built it and set it up for him and he was hovering the first day! Now he absolutely LOVES heli's.

So, maybe we can agree that a LARGE FP heli would be a decent option? But a small micro like the HBFP....I've seen too many people quit.

John

[jasmine2501]

Skarn, I fully agree... here's an interesting proof of that concept. This person does have airplane and simulator experience, but this is her first helicopter. Of course, the last time I suggested a big heli for a beginner it almost started a good old-fashioned brawl.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44023

[ifoguy]

The last helicopter I bought was the Honey Bee FP. At the time I bought it, I could already fly inverted and do tic-tocs with my collective pitch helicopters. I bought the FP because so many people recommended it as a "starter" helicopter and I wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

After trying it I understand why people recommend it. It's inexpensive, it's unbelievably tough, it's stable if there's no wind, and it's a good choice if you want to learn to hover in a 2 car garage or a family room. So, if simulation isn't your cup of tea, if you want to learn to hover by flying a model, if you can find a time and place to fly that's away from the wind, then then I agree, the HBFP is a good choice.

The HBFP does have shortcomings. It's tail is poorly controlled. If you fly outside, a gust of wind can catch the tail and cause it to weather vane into the wind. That's the last thing you want when you're learning to hover. The HBFP trains you chop the throttle when you get into trouble. If you move to a collective pitch helicopter, this reflex will smash a CP helicopter into the ground. The Hiller-Only head of the HBFP responds sluggishly to control inputs. This can make it a handful if you're trying to hover it outside in the wind. Finally, of course, the HBFP can't do 3D.

On the other hand, the Blade 400 seems like a good way to go if you're willing to first spend some time with a simulator. The Blade 400 has a well controlled tail, it's more stable in the wind, and it's capable of 3D (I've read, I've never owned one). But it's much more expensive to buy, it isn't anywhere near as durable, it needs more space to fly, and it can do you serious harm if it hits you.

So there's no "best" choice for everyone. Every individual has to figure out what's best for him (or her).

As for me, if I had to do it all over again I would lean towards the Blade 400. But I wouldn't get it until I learned to at least hover and fly circuits both upright and inverted on the simulator. But that's just me.

[Blade_Killer]

Then he got a TREX 450sa from an estate sale for VERY cheap. I built it and set it up for him and he was hovering the first day! Now he absolutely LOVES heli's.

John

I think this is the reason right here, YOU were able to help him set it up and trim it out........a noob with no one to help them would in almost all cases, have a different out come.......

[dtice06]

"so with that said I have proceed to damage the just newly purchased Eflite 400 3D to some $125 in parts .....and best part is that it was all done within the 4 seconds"

Sound like my first flight with my CX and then my CP. Good thing I enjoy working on them almost as much as I enjoy flying them. Don't give up.

[camelVankah]

Just my 2 bits. I went through almost exactly the same steps you went through with the added aggravation of going to the blade 400cp (mistake)

I have the blade mcx and it's relaxing and entertaining and it will teach you orientation without huge costs for damage.

I then got a heli-max cx micro, which is a bit bigger and a lot more maneuverable than the mcx, but parts are still cheap and flight times are mulch longer. Once you get that so that you can do figure 8 circuits around the room without hitting anything, you can change the control rods from the servos to the swashplate from the holes in the servo control horn which are closest to the hub, out farther to the outer holes giving you more throw and greater speed and control.
The heli-max is not as slow and stable in flight as the blade mcx micro but in fact that's exactly what I needed to learn to deal with in the 400.
One thing about the heli max is that some control boards don't work as well as others. My second heli-max had a nasty random twitch to the right- so I sent it back to heli-max and they sent me a replacement. Now I can trim that sucker out to hands off hover! (maybe helimax made a design improvement?)
After a couple of flights in my blade 400 3d pro I then realize that I still need more practice so its' back to the micros to iron out my errors.
I sure can't afford parts for the 400 all the time and I havn't crashed it yet.
Good Luck!!

[arbilab]

and set it up for himNow I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box when it comes to flying or setup. But a pattern is emerging here. RTF really means 'ready to flarg-with' unless you are extraordinarily lucky.

How could a beginning pilot without firsthand counsel know whether s/he was crashing the craft or the craft was crashing itself? I mean, both happen anyway. But from reading here, few RTF micros whatsofew come out of the box in flyable condition.

*I think* a larger more expensive craft (~450) has 2 things going for it that make it easier than say HBFP. One, it's more precise. Two, it's bigger, so remaining imprecisions represent less of an effect on its flight characteristics.

The compromise for a beginner, is that you're going to crash both and HBFP is MUCH cheaper to repair. I've crashed (won't call it 'flown') mine just over 2 weeks and broke ~$10 worth of parts. I don't think you can crash a CP once for less than 3 times that.

[norcalheli]

I find it amusing at how many who don't own a CP heli and have never flown one have such strong opinions about how hard it is to fly, what its flight characteristics are, and how much it costs to fix.

[Blade_Killer]

norcalheli, I have owned a BCP, a King2, and currently a Mini Titan and I agree with almost everything arbilab said in his post.....

[arbilab]

Norcal, they are the opinions of others who HAVE owned them, from reading here, remembering, correlating. Opinions of those whose opinion I regard highly, as they have long and wide experience. Which I constantly remind myself and others that I do NOT.

All I'm out to do in discussing craft I have never owned or even seen in person, is avail folks who haven't done the research of the key points they can find from authoritative sources here (NOT which I'm). Quite right, how could I say BCP is difficult, never having seen one? Who knows, maybe *I* could fly it. But I double-dam doubt it. Not when experienced people say "I sold mine".

I dunno how helpful my summaries of expert opinions are, seeing as how I have next to no credibility in the field. But to someone who hasn't done the research themselves, it at least tells them they need to consider a LOT of parameters. Not just the scale canopy and the sales blurbs that were my main influence until I came here and started reading about every model I was interested in, BCP being one.

[jasmine2501]

I make a few posts like that myself sometimes, but I have learned to say things like "other users have reported X" or "I have heard that... something or other is the case" - that way people who read the post can know that I don't have personal experience with the subject matter. For example, I have heard that many people are able to train themselves to fly very well with a Honey Bee, but I've never flown one. In very rare circumstances, this could allow me to suggest a Honey Bee to someone, in the case that the things I have experience with are not what they are looking for.

I can give first-hand opinions on Blade 400, Trex 450, Trex 250, Trex 500, Blade CP Pro, Axe CP (V2 & 3), Blade CX2, CX3, and mCX. With that in mind and assuming the person's goal is to learn to fly helicopters without having it be a really frustrating experience, my preferred selections for them would be Blade mCX and Blade 400/Trex 450. I would avoid the other ones in my list, for various reasons, but mostly due to the frustration level, which for me is not worth saving any amount of money. If budget is a consideration, and frustration and repair time and cost is less important than budget, then other options may be more appropriate for someone. Still, I would avoid the Blade CP and all of its ilk.

[Blade_Killer]

I make a few posts like that myself sometimes, but I have learned to say things like "other users have reported X" or "I have heard that... something or other is the case" - that way people who read the post can know that I don't have personal experience with the subject matter.
wouldnt it just be easier if you stick to subject matters you have first hand experience with then instead of guessing?

[jasmine2501]

It's not a guess when you say "Blade Killer likes his Honey Bee and he seems to be on the level about it" ? I think it's helpful, particularly when you can make a comparison - "HBFP flyers seem to be much happier than CP Pro owners" :)

[flypaper 2]

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996072
If you want the best trainer heli ever this is it. First one I bought was in 96 and it's still going strong. Gone through many helis since 96 but this has hung in. :D , as I still fly it. Glad to see Multiplex has updated it and re-introduced it.

Gord.

[arbilab]

Or, would the onus fall appropriately upon the reader, having seen "I've heard..." from someone without that particular craft in their fleet, to read on and find the opinions from which "I've heard.." originated, people who HAVE owned the craft and reported on it.

Is "I've heard..." from someone who routinely researches a certain class of craft in consideration of buying one, not in the end more valuable than a website sales blurb? If nothing else, it tells the marginally-informed reader that there's more to the craft's character than what the salesman said, and that they're advised to research further.

And being a marginally-informed reader is something of which I have firsthand experience. To me, 3 "I've heards" are easily worth 1 firsthand account, which I could easily miss in the sheer volume of entries here.

[simages]

wouldnt it just be easier if you stick to subject matters you have first hand experience with then instead of guessing?First of all I'd like to thank all who take time to post throughout the forum and contributing to the hobby....... regardless of who you are, what you fly and for how long you've been doing it. That said and not that jasmine2501 needs backing up, but she's well spoken and articulates when she posts and I bet she uses spell check when needed. :D
Now in her defense I too will often mention a satisfied user who owns and operates a specific aircraft.

Sharing Information, Technology and Experience

Let’s not forgot that references such as that can also point the newcomer directly to the source like a thread and/or specific member. Folks are often thirsty for knowledge and open to any suggestions or guidance in the early stages of getting started.

To me, 3 "I've heards" are easily worth 1 firsthand account, which I could easily miss in the sheer volume of entries here.
Good point and well said...... ;)

[Blade_Killer]

my point was more to people who post "facts" about helis they really know little to nothing about, not Jazz specifically, but her post opened the door to my comment...."I've heard that so and so likes it" or "if you go to this post they will tell you" is all fine, I am talking about things like "the *insert heli name here* is really hard to control and isnt very good but I've never owned one" is more what I am referring to.

[TMorita]

The last helicopter I bought was the Honey Bee FP. At the time I bought it, I could already fly inverted and do tic-tocs.
...

Be careful, the HBFP won't do tic-tocs.

It will only do a tic. :eek:

Toshi

[ifoguy]

Toshi:

I already knew how to fly helicopters when I bought my HBFP. I bought the HBFP out of curiosity. I wanted to see why so many people recommended it. I've reworded my post to clarify that I didn't buy the HBFP to do tic-tocs :eek:

Also Toshi thanks so much for writing the Electric Helicopter Beginners Guide! It is a great resource. Even though it says it's for "beginners", it's not just for beginners. I continue to learn things whenever I reread it!

[jasmine2501]

I just meant to say that when you post something you have heard on here and you don't have first hand experience, you should say so... but there is nothing inherently wrong about second hand information. Everything anyone knows about this hobby is second hand - we all learn from each other.

[arbilab]

It's secondhand until it's demonstrated to be true in the hands of the poster, which it very often is. We see here a lot of "yep, that's what it was alright" posts from questioners who had scarcely a clue going in.

T'would indeed be ideal to include a reference link to firsthand information one is repeating secondhand. Not always practical, sources get lost except to memory unless one spends as much time cross-indexing data as one spends acquiring it. I halfass answered something I didn't 'really know' the other night with the appropriate disclaimer, then came across a definitive discussion on it and went back to edit in the link.

Imagine how difficult this sport was 30 years ago if you didn't live where there was an active group of experts, intermediates, and beginners to bring everyone up to speed. As Bullwinkle once said, "imposseroo". In 12yrs on the internet, I have never seen a more coherent, cohesive, synergistic group. Where virtually EVERYthing is valuable, even the tossoff chat between members. Does take some dedication of resources to find and assimilate it, and it gets away from you if you're missing for more than about 36 hours.

What other web service is that true of? Yourface? Mytube? I think not. And if those get away from you, what exactly have you missed? An episode of The Price Is Right?

[norcalheli]

norcalheli, I have owned a BCP, a King2, and currently a Mini Titan and I agree with almost everything arbilab said in his post.....
The compromise for a beginner, is that you're going to crash both and HBFP is MUCH cheaper to repair. I've crashed (won't call it 'flown') mine just over 2 weeks and broke ~$10 worth of parts. I don't think you can crash a CP once for less than 3 times that.
First off, I really wasn't picking on arbilab, my post just happened to be the last at that time, and his was right above it. The comment was more about preconceptions flyers have and their biases for whatever size heli, or plane for that matter, they fly themselves. The micro forum is full of pronouncements on how hard a CP is to fly, how the "big" helis like a T-Rex450 cost big bucks every crash, etc. And I realize, and admit, that my own biases play into comments I make. The absolute worst crash I've had to date with my T-Rex 450 (sa morphed into a SE V2) was $27. That was main gear, main shaft, main blades, tail boom, and flybar. Surprisingly, the feathering shaft was fine. Most of my mishaps cost right around $15-$20 to fix. And that's because the blades are usually toast, and they're $12 to replace. BK, if you're flying an MT, then you know how much more stable the larger heli is. And that holds true right on up to the big guys. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had started with the Swift, a 30 size, because it is so stable, and surprisingly enough, parts costs are very close to those of the T-Rex.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, it was a comment that probably was better left unsaid. I'm not really an arse, just play one on the internet. :p

[Blade_Killer]

I wont dispute that a 450 or larger is more stable, sure they are, but, when you crash it while learning, and you will crash it a lot, it costs lots more in time and money to fix it then a HBFP will, and a HBFP will teach you all the basics you need to fly a single rotor heli and will, in most cases, do it a lot cheaper then someone starting off on a CP with out any guidance from someone else who knows what they are doing.

[Balr14]

norcalheli, you must be incredibly lucky or have a source of very cheap Trex parts. I've never had an incident with a Trex or other 450 sized heli that didn't cost at least $30. It's usually $50 - $80 and I've never had any serious accidents. I've tipped over, landing on uneven ground and done $50 damage.

[norcalheli]

Maybe I do have the "luck of the Irish" or something. The crash I listed above was the worst as far as number of parts damaged. (It was spectacular. Lost orientation, wound up going through a small peach tree nearly inverted. Flybar was bent in an 'S'.)The SE V2 head is fairly durable, and the 4mm feathering shaft is tough! I also learned the use of the throttle hold switch pretty quickly. I had upgraded to a DX-7 when I was learning on the HB CP2, so I developed that reflex before I ever flew the Rex. OH, and my source for parts is almost exclusively GrandRC.com. Sometimes, but rarely, HeliHobby.com.

BK, I don't dispute the fact that the HBFP is cheaper to fly and fix, both in dollars and in down-time. I would recommend the HBFP to a beginner. In some ways I wish I had either gone with the FP, or just gone with the Swift. My comment was aimed more at the random $50 or $30 or $100 each time a CP crashes. Those were coming mostly from people who had never actually flown a CP, or repaired one. And I will definitely give you this: The CP I started with, the HB CP2, is a POS that kept me frustrated most of the time. The only reason I even managed to hover it was I upgraded to a DX-7, and dialed in NEGATIVE expo to get the damn thing to respond at all. I ran it on negative 10%, and then could finally hover. Blade tracking was always a crap shoot, you never knew from one battery to the next. Same with the tail, I tried the stock, the dual tail motor mod, the DD mod, nothing really worked.

As I said, the comment was one that was probably better left unsaid. The feeling is a little like the first time you hit "Reply All" without realizing it. You just can't get them back.

[arbilab]

No worries mate. I DO make assumptions based on sketchy data. Don't mind having them rejected, better yet, corrected.

Clarify this, please, so I don't make the same errant assumption twice. When you say you get T-rex 450 blades for $12, is that each, or a set? If set, rather surprises (and irks) me that HBFP blades cost the same $12/set, and are very likely less precise.

[wnppmy]

Apologize for this newbie report, but thank you Hirobo Quark, something even I can fly..<>..

It been a bumpy ride for this newbie, super fun with the Eflite Mini Coaxial, quickly bored entered more aggresive models, yep the Honey Bee FP, amazing price but gads so shaky out of the box and nope still getting this one to fly...even ordered some other models waaay to advanced for my present level, then discovered this pricy FP Hirobo SRB Quark, world of difference, if hovers like a rock, right out of the box, nope not cheap but my attempts for success are two HBFP yet either to fly, and realzie these do fly, just something were missing at the present, hi hi...so if you want something small but stable, tho expensive, the Quark is a beauty, having great fun and even managed a few second hover with a new King 3, but gads its wobbling, will this never end, hi hi..oh well heard a Hirobo CP is in the works, always hope for a frustrated stupid newbie as myself, sorry for all the ignorance here, but wish I found the Quark earlier, wonderful mini flyer indeed...BEST..<>..

If there are any other mini models that fly as well as the Quark right out of the box, please let us all know, have an Eflite Pro 2, scared to death to open that one, hi hi..<>..

Just incase there is someone else out there with similar issues but have a sizeable pocketbook and insist on a mini flyer, look no further, you'll have much better chance with this one, best price found was Yrbuy at $329, yep its pricy but trust me this babie flys like a champ, have ordered parts (blades, only fragile thing on this stable flyer) and impressive quick delivery, didn't find them intime and got my Quark from Hobbywarhous also a good dealer as well but abit more....pssst the Quark blades are fragile so order extra sets, but the heli itself it built like a tank, survived 15 foot cement drops with no damages other than the foam like blades...wish you luck, I'm Happy Now !!!!

[norcalheli]

Clarify this, please, so I don't make the same errant assumption twice. When you say you get T-rex 450 blades for $12, is that each, or a set? If set, rather surprises (and irks) me that HBFP blades cost the same $12/set, and are very likely less precise.
That's $11.99 for a set of 325mm Align Pro Woodies. I think they are $12.99 now, I haven't bought any in a few months. What'll really irk you is I get 520mm wood blades for my Century Swift for $14.99/set, and Aerotech 530mm woodies for $19.95/set. That's why I keep saying the Swift 16 is a lot cheaper to build and fly than most people will believe. Plus, since we've established by inference that we're about the same age, the Swift 16, with a 46 inch rotor span (with the 520s), and an overall length of about 45 inches, this thing is just plain easier to see!

Happy flying,
Bob

[Skarn]

The wooden blades I used are only $9 a pair!

http://www.tech-mp.com/trex_450_parts.php

You get 3 sets for $28!

Yep trex parts arent' bad at all if you know where to shop ;)

Skarn

[arbilab]

So far, the good news seems that HBFP doesn't eat blades anywhere near like the V4 did. But those are only about $1.50/set and the easily-shattered blade seems to restrict damage to the cheapest, easiest-to-replace part.

Or after 2 months, am I just getting 'really good' at crashing? Well maybe not. Still original blades, but waiting for rotor head to come off backorder at my 'trusted vendor'.

Tell me, if I upgrade RH to metal, will that likely move the damage to something even more internal and difficult to replace? I mean, SOMEthing's got to soak up impact. Better it be something superficial/accessable. And a bent metal head is just as out of tolerance as a sloppy plastic one even if it doesn't outright break.

[norcalheli]

Arbilab,
FWIW, I wouldn't upgrade the HBFP at all. Use it to learn, and save your money for a belt, or shaft, driven tail heli in whatever size appeals to you. From most of the discussions I've read over the last two years regarding the HBFP, I think you will hit its limits after a while, and no amount of upgrades will make it fly better. Once you experience a variable pitch tail, no matter what the motive force, you will not want to go back. It stands to reason that you can change pitch much, much faster than you can change rpm. The locked in feeling of a variable pitch tail is priceless.
Happy flying.
Bob

[Balr14]

I use the stock HBFP head and hardware for most of my GuruZ builds. The Compy 300/GuruZ HBFP beltdrive, with brushless motor and Xtreme wooden blades is about as good as an FP heli gets. It's simple, durable flies great and doesn't cost a fortune.

The only significant problem I have had with HBFP hardware is breaking the balls off the bladeholder. I fixed that by drilling a hole straight through both balls and inserting a CF rod through them.

[arbilab]

I suspect you're right, Bob.

I WANTED belt/VP TR. But it cost $150 more. I have a whopping budget problem, as in only enough assets to live 48 months at current cost/income. If I had a financial advisor, he would tell me I don't have any business in this hobby at all. But what I've spent so far wouldn't keep me alive more than 2 weeks out of those 48 months. So I'd tell him to go flarg himself.

I bought the HBFP as a learning platform, as in better to crash a $100 gizmo than a $300+ one. Pretty satisfied with what I did, and the advice I got to do it.

[norcalheli]

In that case, you might want to look at the Guru-Z threads in the micro forum. I haven't priced them lately, but just a few months ago the Neon belt tail upgrade, with full frames, was only around $50. The esky 2.4 GHz tx and receiver is around $60 at BP Hobbies, Esky 9g digital servos $10 ea. They have a few different ESC and BL motor combos as well. Put it all together with your HBFP head, and you will have the best of both worlds, an FP head with a belt tail. Fun to put together, and if you start picking up a few items here and there, you can stretch it out while you're learning on the FP. Then, when the time is right, you can just switch the head over and have yourself a decent little heli. Still not CP, but at least it has a belt tail. If you go brushless, the higher RPM can compensate for the increased weight, and give enough tail authority for pretty good control.

[Balr14]

If you have a built-up GuruZ and get an urge for CP, swap the head and transmitter. Lots of CP heads fit. Used BCPP, Axe CP, HBK2, etc work just fine and are pretty easy to find. I like Axe CP head and hardware, but their electronics suck. Fortunately, a 6 channel E-Sky transmitter works pretty well with seperate receiver and Axe hardware. I suspect E-Sky used CP parts would be better, but LHS carries HeliMax over-priced stuff.

[Blade_Killer]

arbilab, the only cnc part that is worth while on the HBFP is the paddle control frame, I have the one from the compy FP because it was the only one available at the time, now Xtreem has them but I havent heard a lot of good things about the HBFP metal parts from Xtreem. But anyway, thats the only metal part I would recommend. I would also say upgrade to the slomax, M24s, and DD tail, it's a world of difference and maybe get a metal flybar and BCP paddles when you start doing FF.

[arbilab]

Thanks BK. I will replace the PCF with CNC when I need a new one. The way I fly, shouldn't be too long.