A noob is seeking for some advice [Archive]

irousso

Feb 13, 2009, 11:12 AM

Hello everybody,
I've used to fly RC planes something like 10 years ago, and was always interestd to switch to heli's. At the time there were only fuel ones which were extremely expansive and also very hard to fly.

I recently revisted my local hobby store and was amazed by the "electric" revolution. I then purchased according to the guy there the Blade mCX - as he suggested it is a good starting point. To be honest - that was a lot of fun, but quite quickly it gotten a bit boring since there was no challange flying it. I could quickly get quite accurate and even do some nice precise manouvers.

At this stage I decided I should switch to the next level, and the guy at the store told me that I could go with the Axe CP. This is where all the frustration began. I've been watching the DVD, and I have full control on the first step hovering - the one where you are not really above the ground but high enough to move the heli. I have full control there, can move it, keep it in a small area etc.
However, once I try to take off - and hover I just can't keep the nose of the damn thing balanced. I've been spending many hours, and I can at best take off (10 inches) and land few feets further. During this relatively simple stage I already broke the rear engine stage (the heli tail fell back), and it is getting really frustrating!!!! I am starting to think this heli thing may not be for me...
Have I done the right thing by going to the Axe CP? Should I have switch to a FP one instead (Honey Bee)? Are there some tips any of you guys can provide to a frustrated and about to get desperate guys... ;)

thanks,
Itay

Skarn

Feb 13, 2009, 01:17 PM

A HBFP will be no easier to fly than the any other micro CP. Your Axe is a VERY hard heli to learn on. But with that said, it can be done, so don't give up! Have you done RADDs yet? Do you have a simulator? I highly recommend getting one if not.

But, with all that said, I will say this. IF you really know you are going to stay in the hobby and IF money isn't that much of an issue, you could definitely get an easier heli to learn on! Any 450 or larger heli is what I recommend to newbies....they are like night and day compared to the smaller micro's with motor driven tails. So if you can do it, get a 450 like a Trex or Mini Titan or Trex clone....your learning curve will skyrocket!

Good luck and stick with it!
Skarn

irousso

Feb 13, 2009, 01:29 PM

Blade_Killer

Feb 13, 2009, 02:20 PM

get the HBFP and put the Cp on a shelf for awhile. The HBFP is easier on the wallet and doesnt require the repairs a CP does. More stick time and a lot less repair time

Skarn

Feb 13, 2009, 03:50 PM

Are you referring to this one - T-REX 450SA?
If so - I have a B'day in two months - so I'll ask my wife to get me one... :)
I had no idea the Axe CP is actually harder... I thought the bigger ones are for more experienced guys...
Itay

That's a good one for sure! If you want her to spend a bit more, the latest is the TREX 450 SE v2....but there is a v3 about to be released as well.

And no, the bigger ones aren't only for the experienced guys. At my local heli field, they teach newbies on nitro Raptors! They are MUCH easier to learn on than even the 450 size heli's...

Blade_Killer: Is absolutely correct in that the HBFP is indeed easier on the wallet, and doesn't require as much repairs....or setup for that matter. But with a 450 or larger, you won't crash as often as you will with the small micro heli's. It's a tradeoff....either way works. But I know of so many people that have quit the hobby in frustration because they are SO freaking hard to learn on.

You yourself have already expressed your frustration with a micro heli....again, the FP will NOT fly any easier! So that is why I say if your wife is going to get you a heli, get a 450 or larger heli and you will be amazed! Also with the Finless video's over at helifreak they walk you through everything from building to setting up to flying. Definitly go to helifreak and check them out...it's a heli-only forum that you will enjoy.

Good luck man, and let the addiction begin!

Skarn

Blade_Killer

Feb 13, 2009, 08:33 PM

the only problem I have with the finless bob set up is he sets the heli up hot and ready for 3D, which I think is a no no for a beginner........

jasmine2501

Feb 13, 2009, 11:11 PM

the only problem I have with the finless bob set up is he sets the heli up hot and ready for 3D, which I think is a no no for a beginner........

Personally I think it's better to set up the helicopter with full capability and learn to fly it that way. It depends on who you are though... some people will probably benefit from a less capable setting. I think you should do that in the radio though, unless you have one of those helis which can mechanically be set up in different ways. A Trex 450 is designed to have certain geometry, and if you try to change it, the thing might not operate correctly.

The Axe CP is tricky to fly, but if you increase the head speed or fly in idle-up mode, it might get a little easier. I know that seems backwards, but try it and see. Having tried many different helicopters including the Axe CP, I actually do think a 400-size is the next step up from a coaxial. The 400s are stable enough for beginners, and the parts are cheap enough that you should be able to afford several crashes.

Blade_Killer

Feb 14, 2009, 01:09 AM

I was really referring to his radio set up videos, he says "this is set up for 3d" over and over and scale guys and beginners dont need that.....

I actually do think a 400-size is the next step up from a coaxial. The 400s are stable enough for beginners, and the parts are cheap enough that you should be able to afford several crashes.

and I completely disagree unless they have someone with experience to help them, but thats whats good about this forum, different view points for a noob to weigh

jasmine2501

Feb 14, 2009, 01:21 AM

I had nobody to help me except a simulator, and I went from a CX to the Trex 450 without much problem. So I know it's possible, but it's highly dependent on who you are and how you learn things. When I was a kid, I learned to swim by being thrown off the 3m board into the deep end of the pool... not everyone can learn like that, but some people can. Of course, these days somebody would probably sue if a teacher did that, but it was the 70s :D

I don't think an Axe CP is helpful... a decent pilot can fly it pretty well, but it's just not stable enough for a total noob.

DNO1BULL

Feb 14, 2009, 01:32 AM

Nick the nob here. Got my receiver fixed, had to call the company. Will spin it up tomorrow, hopefully with better results.
Thanks for all your help. Nick

irousso

Feb 14, 2009, 03:43 AM

Thanks guys for all the tips and advise!
After doing some more reading in these forums, I will first going to get myself a good simulator, and practice there for a while. Once I feel comfortable there, I will move to a real RC Heli - either try again the Axe or just get a new and bigger one. By the way - when you say 400 heli you mean the diameter of its rotor? What would you consider a good 400 heli to start with?
Itay

Andrew McGregor

Feb 14, 2009, 05:03 AM

400 or 450 are to do with motor sizes (obsolete brushed motor sizes). In rotor blade length they're 300 to 325 mm size.

500 is also a motor size, they tend to have 425 mm blades. 550 and larger go by blade length in mm.

irousso

Feb 14, 2009, 09:45 AM

Thanks!
Itay

bikemad

Feb 14, 2009, 11:22 AM

I like my up graded walkera 60B :D , it's a 400 size and is the cheapest to get parts for, and I'm learning to fly very well with it, it's up for mid 3D stuff and has loads of power for out door flying and is small enough for a large room, if you don't mind buying the air frame and building it your self, which I think is best any way, then a walkera 60b is a fine heli, with cheap running cost's,
Or the best 450 a copterx black angel,
We have never had it so good :D , there is so many good heli's out there, these are my favourites,

ifoguy

Feb 16, 2009, 09:51 AM

Thanks guys for all the tips and advise!
After doing some more reading in these forums, I will first going to get myself a good simulator, and practice there for a while.
Itay
irousso:

Excellent choice! There are many different ways of learning to fly a helicopter. However, the more time you spend on the simulator, the less need you will have for "beginner" or "starter" helicopters.

For example, if you first learn to hover all upright and inverted orientations on the simulator, then I think you could safely skip training gear, and the Honey Bee FP.

On the other hand if you also use the simulator to learn circuits, tic-toc's, hurricanes, funnels, and piro-flips, then I think you can safely "start" with just about any helicopter!

I've owned a Hirobo Sky Robo (coaxial), an Esky Honey Bee CP2, a Century Hummingbird 3D Pro, an Align T-Rex 450 SE, and an Esky Honey Bee FP. I have a total of over 1200 flights on those helicopters. I've come to the conclusion that the single most valuable training tool is ... the simulator.

irousso

Feb 16, 2009, 02:13 PM

I've actually began today to practice on the simulator. Damn its hard, its exactly as someone described it - balancing a ball on a plate. After few hours I can hover but the thing is moving constantly in round circles... but I bet with more practice it will get better. It makes you appreciate the level and experience required just to hold the thing stable hovering in the air.
I now can certainly see how such a simulator may help. As I said in the previous message - I will spend the entire week practicing on it, and then in the weekend will see how it feels with the real thing... :-)
Itay

Andrew McGregor

Feb 16, 2009, 03:06 PM

Going in circles is a sign you're a) not quite reacting in precisely the right direction and b) over-controlling; making too big a response. You might also be a little slow.

The best cure is anticipation; you know it's going to do that, so put in the control input to cancel that out before it does.

Also, you need to know that with the real thing, and perhaps with the sim, it is easier to hold a stable hover more than two rotor spans off the ground; too low down and ground effect takes over, which makes the hover less stable.

ifoguy

Feb 16, 2009, 05:43 PM

Damn its hard
Itay

That's what keeps it interesting! I've been flying RC helicopters for almost 3 years and I still find it hard!

Furthermore, I've found that the more I advance, the harder it gets! When I got into trouble when learning to hover upright, I could often just hit throttle hold and the helicopter would settle onto the ground with minimal to no damage. When I started hovering inverted a mistake meant I hit the ground with the spinning blades. When I practice tic-tocs, a missed tic meant that I might hit the ground inverted with considerable velocity.

To give you a reference, I practiced 20 minutes daily for a few months before I attempted to hover a model upright. On my first flight I was able to hover upright in all orientations. I also practiced 20 minutes daily for a few months to learn inverted in all orientations. Then when I tried inverted on a model for the first time I was able to hover inverted in all four orientations.

Everyone has to decide for themselves the appropriate balance of simulation and flying of a model. My problem is that I love wild 3D but lack commensurate talent. Bill Gates wouldn't be able to afford what it would cost for me to learn 3D on a model.

When I started out, I flew a model 6 packs every day. Nowadays I mostly fly the simulator. I've found that not only does it cost less, but I learn faster on the simulator.

irousso

Feb 17, 2009, 03:21 AM

Going in circles is a sign you're a) not quite reacting in precisely the right direction and b) over-controlling; making too big a response. You might also be a little slow.

Well I am sure that more practice will help - but let me explain what I meant:
as soon as the heli is off ground its blades are parallel to the ground and I keep the tail heading my direction. In this orientation the thing makes relatively large circles.

"The best cure is anticipation; you know it's going to do that, so put in the control input to cancel that out before it does." - well when I do that - I can keep it more or less in the same place but it is "shaking" all the time. I have no doubt that it is just a question of skill and I will get there with more practice... :-) At least it is much less expansive now to make mistakes...
Itay

Andrew McGregor

Feb 17, 2009, 04:50 AM

Is it a fast vibration in the heli? If it's that, you need to track down the source of it... something isn't aligned right, out of balance, something like that.

If you're hovering too low, it might just be the ground effect.

irousso

Feb 17, 2009, 04:57 AM

Thanks for the prompt reply.
First - it is in the simulator.... and its not a fast vibration - so I guess its the ground effect - I am (trying) to hover at 5-10 inches. I will try to hover higher - as you suggested twice the rotor span and see what happens.
Itay

irousso

Feb 19, 2009, 08:51 AM

MrSock

Feb 19, 2009, 04:30 PM

I an also new to flying Helis, new to flying anything really. I started off with the Axe CP about 6 months ago as my first Heli.

The biggest problems I had were I didn’t understand how sensitive the controls are and the effects of prop-wash/ground effect on the Heli.

I still over correct a little and have a bit of the same jerkiness you described.

A friend that flies a lot showed me a good sim and where to get a cable that works with the Axe radio so I am now learning new orientations on the Sim first and I can say it is way cheeper.

I can see how most say that the Axe is not good for a beginner it seems really touchy and easily effected by wind/ground effect. I learned to hover in my living room and only have a 7’X5’ open space to maneuver in. The wind created from the blades was bouncing off the walls and furniture created a lot of control problems. Needless to say I made learning how to fly a lot harder on my self!

The up side is it motivated me to go looking for information on how to learn faster and cheaper. The first time I flew outside I was greatly surprised by how much easier it was.

The Axe can be a first Heli but if I was to do it over I would not get it till I knew more and had learned on a more stable machine. I am still learning and flying as often as weather permits, I still hover in the house when the weather is bad but that is not nearly as fun (still a good challenge to keep hovering).

Good luck and don’t give up!

Andrew McGregor

Feb 19, 2009, 04:46 PM

slowly slowly, but I am getting there (on the simulator that is). Still having hard time hovering without moving too much, but there is certainly an improvement and the movement area is getting smaller..

Good! So now it's just practice... keep at it, eventually you'll realise you can hold it where you want it for as long as you want to, without even thinking about it.

dtice06

Feb 21, 2009, 12:20 PM

I am by no means proficient with a helicopter but i thought i would throw in my 2 cents. I started with the blade CX then the blade CP and just bought a blade 400 a couple weeks ago. I found when starting with my CP I was trying to ease off the ground into a hover and was having a heck of a time. At the advice of a pilot in my local club I would "jump" it off the ground to about 3 or 4 feet so it wasn't being affected so much by the rotor wash. With that being said I also went through several batteries without ever leaving the ground to get a good feel for the controls. Also flying with training gear helped me too. The added weight helped dumb down the controls a little. Plus it saved me a ton in parts. Everyone's flying style is different. You will come into your own. Just don't get discouraged.

Also check out these plastic blades.
http://www.helidirect.com/index.php?cPath=38_293_294

irousso

Mar 14, 2009, 02:35 AM

ok guys - I am proud to say that after being able to hover in the simulator I yesterday took the real heli to a spin, and boom - I was able to hover it. It was such a rewarding feeling!!! By all means, I am far from near perfection, but I feel now much more confident in applying throtle quite quickly and stabilizing it as it leaves the ground.
One thing that I found it strange was the fact that the Heli in real-life was more stable than its virtual counterpart...

Itay

Balr14

Mar 14, 2009, 11:12 AM

Are you using the Axe CP? It's not a real difficult heli to hover because it's bigger and heavier and more stable, than any other 300 class heli. Once you have progressed past the hovering stage it gets more difficult. The extra weight makes it more sluggish and tail authority is poor.

vicresendez

Mar 14, 2009, 10:06 PM

what sim are you using ??

vicresendez

Mar 14, 2009, 10:23 PM

I was were you are about two years ago, No sim at first and little knowledge and no idea this awesome FORUM world existed !
I started with flying planks,,,, got bored and interested in helis
Wife bought me a hobby people fixed pitch thing very difficult to fly w/my skill level.
after alot of crashes and repairs, i made a huge leap raptor 30 heli with that came a sim,,,,,,,,,,practiced practiced on sim I would go out and take little flights, hops really and they became bigger and bigger oh i never put on any landing gear, and finally progressed into forward flight. Its an awesome feeling when you finally get into some new areas of your flight training keep at it ! I have since sold the rappy and have several helis now
trex 450 good heli, stable when set up properly, cheap to repair, cheap batteries.
trex 600e very powerful, very very stable, awesome 3d, expensive batts, short flight times, long recharge times, pretty cheap parts if no major damage.
trex 600n, pretty similar to 600e, powerful, longer flight times, field gear starter, glo fuel, tuning engine,more onboard electronics to deal with, messier, " ah but you have that nitro smell, something about that"

700n VERY POWERFUL ditto on the 600n

50 raptor with Long ranger body " hanger queen" very stable, awesome to see it flight, easy to work on, but its still a nitro mess, I'm just carrying on now good luck and keep practicing !!!!!! :)